posted
I am writing a story which depends tunneling and moving through an elaborate tunnel system for survival and as a mobile base for the defence against an alien army. I planned to start in a city where lots of underground tunneling already existed and where further lowtech tunneling would not be a problem. My first thought was New York with its elaborate subway and drainage system but I knew the first tunnel to be destroyed by the attackers would be tunnels between the mainland and the island. I have never been to New York and know my scene would have to be on the mailland. I start my story two years into the defenders story with an extensive tunnel system having been dug connecting the rest of the system. Are any of you familiar enough with the New York area to let me know if this might be feasable and whether I should go further in this direction or whether another large city would be better suited for this story. Jerry P. S. I am new to this area and this is my first post.
[This message has been edited by jpwriter (edited April 17, 2004).]
posted
Well, London has an extensive subway system. If you want to stay in the U.S., I know that San Francisco has a subway. When I was in Seattle, I heard there was an extensive "underground city" there. Another that comes to mind is Chicago. I don't think there is a subway there, but the railway system goes everywhere and some of the roads seem to disappear underground.
Posts: 266 | Registered: Mar 2004
|
posted
Thanks Dude, I suppose any extensive system would work. One of the main problems would be flooding in those without natural drainage and if any part of the system was below sea level, as those on any coast would be, the problem of flooding would be unlikely to be controlable without an effective and mobile pumping system. Food, water and other resources I have solved. Not tunnel flooding. Jerry
Posts: 35 | Registered: Apr 2004
|
posted
I'm going to assume that your story is Scifi and thus set in the future. If you're worried about using a real subway system due to some reader noticing the "mistakes" you could make one up. For instance, Detroit doesn't have any underground tunnel system. Get a map of Metro Detroit and make your own. Or any other major city.
posted
Yeah, flooding would definitely rule out Boston as well. (Although tunneling through landfill would be easy...) Are the aliens living in the buildings? Otherwise you could try some neat routes through buildings where the tunnels became flooded. (Although yeah, another city that doesn't now have a subway would be easiest, because you could explain away any discrepancies with "they changed that when they built the subway.")
New York might work, and there's certainly been a lot written about the subways there (including the _Mole People_ book, which has been extensively debunked).
London could be nice: there's some underground rivers, and the earthworks date back far later. There's also quite a bit of information available on London. (And if you did London, you'd have an excuse to read Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere.)
[This message has been edited by Gen (edited April 17, 2004).]
posted
To those that suggest another city. That is a good idea except that then I would have to explain how cities have been forced to change direction and build extensive subway systems. No modern city I know of is building anything but token underground rail systems. Nothing on the magnitude of New York or London. I have come to the conclusion that I may have to find a way to get the depth of the subways in New York and get a topigraphical map to figure out how much of the system is above sea level. Now if I just had a friend in public works in NYC! Jerry
Posts: 35 | Registered: Apr 2004
|
posted
How large a system do you need? You might consider The Maginot Line in France as a start point. Already a military installation, and spooky as all get out.
posted
Dictated to me by my friend who is visiting from NYC:
"First of all, except for the Bronx, let him know that all of NYC is on islands. Staten Island and Manhattan are both islands, and Brooklyn and Queens are both on Long Island.
"In terms of the water level, not sure about the outer bouroughs, but on Manhattan pretty much all of the tunnels are below sea level."
posted
You might consider Paris. Beneath the city itself lies a gigantic network of catacombs that houses more than 7 million ex-citizens of the city. The network lies 25+ feet beneath the surface of the city. And thats in addition to its exstensive subway system.
[This message has been edited by JBShearer (edited April 17, 2004).]
posted
I'll concur with the majority and say you shouldn't limit yourself to subway systems. Your underground army would want to make use of man-sized tunnels as much as possible, so sewers, catacombs, old military and service access systems...they would all be much more attractive than subway tunnels, which are simply too large and well mapped to provide a high degree of defensive value.
Also, using subways would be very dangerous because it is an easy vector for chem/bio warfare...you could pump a nearly unlimited amount of any kind of nasty stuff into New York's subways, and it would get into virtually every underground space. Even if the aliens had some compunctions about CB warfare, heavy vehicles could easily dominate a subway system, which would provide nil advantage for your underground army.
Sewers in a large metropolitan area would be ideal...most large cities actually have a number of sewage treatment centers rather than just one, so you have multiple semi-independent systems that could effectively be sealed off from each other (I believe that some cities already have those systems in place for containment of toxic spills and the like). Also, sewers are very old...you have unused systems and new systems and who knows what. And you have the storm drainage system...those tunnels are ideal for infantry defense, and you even have multiple surface access points which also provide hard cover.
In combination with other systems like old military/industrial complexes, catacombs, and so forth, you would have a robust and defensible network of underground tunnels which would effectively negate a considerable technological disparity.
posted
Or perhaps Rome? Am I correct in assuming that there are many catacomb systems still in existence? If not then forget it, but I'd guess that there are more undiscovered (and mostly intact) than we currently know about. I'm not sure if modern Rome has any subway systems, but I suppose that can be easily discovered by way of Google. I can think of some interesting dialogue involving discoveries down there (corpses, writing etched in stone, etc.).
If you are writing a far-reaching SF story (temporally speaking) you could fabricate a suitable world for your needs. That's if you don't care about staging your tale on Earth. Then multiple reasons for an extensive tunnel system would be possible. Hazardous atmospheric conditions, extreme overpopulation (i.e. Coruscant from Star Wars), and/or a mining colony are a few I can list off the top of my head. I'm sure you (and others) could come up with more.
Inkwell ------------------ "The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp." -Anonymous
posted
I understand that Toronto has an underground Railway/subway system, complete with shopping centers etc... But, I would go with the sewer system idea that Survivor had, especially if they linked up with the subway system for easy access to the surface when necessary.
Or you could choose a city like Salt Lake that at one time had a subway/trolley system along with reported "secret" tunnels from one downtown building to another. Most of which are unused today. They even moved a river from underground a couple of years ago and brought it back to the surface. Who knows what kind of tunnels that left behind? Also, they built a new parking structure behind Promised Valley Playhouse several years ago and found an old subterranian opium den that had been closed off for over a century. They found all sorts of things in that "hole". It is rumored, at the time of the railroad that Salt Lake had alot of "underground" crime. Who would know if you just built upon that premise and added some extra tunnels of your own. If the system is old, abandoned, and unmapped, it would make more sense that way. How would your Aliens have any knowledge of that? Especially, if most of the populous is unaware it even exists. You could esentially do that with any city and it would work. And if your major city or any surrounding cities have a mining or underground military past, the possibilities would be endless.
quote:You might consider Paris. Beneath the city itself lies a gigantic network of catacombs that houses more than 7 million ex-citizens of the city. The network lies 25+ feet beneath the surface of the city. And thats in addition to its exstensive subway system.
Paris was going to be my recommendation, as well, though I didn't think about the catacombs.
There is also the underground parts of Seattle, though I'm not sure how extensive they are anymore; it seems like a lot of it might have been filled in over the years.
[This message has been edited by TheoPhileo (edited April 18, 2004).]
posted
If a big city is not a requirement, you could look into old mines. I understand that some of the small towns in the northeast have old coal mines criss-crossing underneath them. Also, in the Mojave dessert in California, I know there are abandoned mineshafts sticking up throughout BLM land. I don't think they are all connected, but I suppose the tunnellers would do that. In the mountains of Virginia (and other areas) there is a pretty extensive natural cave/tunnel system.
Posts: 266 | Registered: Mar 2004
|
posted
Everyone has been very helpful. Thank you very much. I realized early on that it would be much easier to put this on another world. Maybe I am just a glutten for punishment but I will keep it on earth. I could make the story fit in any place such as Paris, London, etc., and I will if my research into the New England area doesn't pan out. The reason I will stick to it now is that in order to move it to another country, I would have to research as much or more into the city there as it might take to research New England cities. My characters would have to change names and some of the language altered. One interesting thing to note. I believe this will be good short story by doing a good job on research. I wouldn't have to do much more research to make it a novel. I haven't started a novel yet but this could be turned into one once I am ready to write novel length material. Posts: 35 | Registered: Apr 2004
|
posted
Every major city in the world has a vast underground. Generally, the more arid the climat the less tunneling you'll see, but they all have some. Storm sewers are cavernous, relativle clean, and usually dry. Sanitary sewers as a place no one would want to go.
It might not surprise you to learn that I have been on expeditions into the storm sewers of Cleveland. There are hundreds of miles of passageway through which you could drive a bus.
Hundreds of feet below the sewers, Cleveland also has a vast salt mine. Yes, I've been there, too. The tunnels extend for miles under Lake Erie, forming a maze as big as the city itself. You could walk for years and never see it all. I have no idea if any other major metropolitan areas have a mine in them, but I would not be surprised.
I urge you to run out and rent the 1949 classic suspense thriller The Third Man. The last scenes of the movie take place in the sewers of Vienna, Austria. While Vienna's sewers are not really bigger than Cleveland's, (and presumable those of any other major city) these scenes are so famous that to this day Vienna conducts tourist trips through its sewer system. If you want to visualize your story, watch The Third Man.
posted
For Another movie I'd suggest Daylight It has some theories. (some proven) about how a flooded tunnel could still be a feasable hideout. Also Volcano is a good one for other points to consider.
Posts: 1895 | Registered: Mar 2004
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
