posted
Can anyone tell me what a "gothic novel" might be? I'm reading Stephen King's Danse Macabre, and he keeps refering to the gothic novel tradition. I've read Peter Straub's Ghost Story. King places it in the gothic tradition, but I'm still confused.
And does anyone on this board write dark fantasy/horror stories?
posted
I write dark fantasy--very dark, been called sick, been told anyone who would like the dark that I write is sick, and was asked to leave a crit group because of dark stuff--does that count? But not gothic.
posted
I'd point to the Mervyn Peake books as examples of the Gothic tradition, "Titus Groan," et al. Also, "Jane Eyre," and "Wuthering Heights."
Not too sure about current Gothic fiction...I think most of it gets lumped under either Romance or Horror these days (depending on whether romance is part of the story). Maybe someone else has more current examples?
Anyway, Gothic is not overtly violent or supernatural...it usually hints at something dark and inexplicable without ever showing it outright. Think large dark mansions with suspicious servants and an innocent young nanny trying to solve the mystery of its brooding owner and you've got the right idea.
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I think gothic romance had a revival in the eighties, along with the rise of time travel romance. (The style today has moved on to cowboy baby romances, and vampire paranormals.) _Wuthuring Heights_ and _Jane Eyre_ were certainly in that tradition, but they didn't invent it-- if I recall correctly, I think the start was earlier, with Radcliffe and _Mysteries of Udolpho_, etcetra.
Jane Austen wrote _Northanger Abbey_ as a satire on the popular gothics of the day. ('And what are you reading, Miss A?' 'Oh! It is only a novel!'? or in short, only some work in which the most thorough knowledge of human nature, the happiest delineation of its varieties, the liveliest effusions of wit and humour are conveyed to the world in the best chosen language.")
posted
I agree w/ the posts above. And yes, there was interest sparked in this genre for romance writers in the '80s (they called them sexy gothics {though they were mostly more sensual than sexy}, where the hero was more accessible and more active in the plot, and the heroine was bolder. Sensuality was taken up a notch - or three! - and there was a rosy ending. Think writers like Andrea Parnell and Virginia Coffman).
Gothics are haunting, romantic mysteries. They're all about *atmosphere* ... the reader should feel something is *very* wrong right from the very beginning. And these books are peopled by a superb cast of suspicious characters.
The writer makes the best use of setting and heightens it all by the choice/use of characters.
Picture an isolated mansion on a cloud-clotted/fog-shrouded moor...add a brooding hero who could or couldn't be the bad guy, and throw a level-headed governess into the mix. (We all *know* she shouldn't go up into the attic alone, after midnight, to investigate...but off she goes!)
This level-headed character is always getting caught up in spooky, dangerous circumstances. And there's always a cast of characters to suspect of nefarious deeds. There's an element of danger in the scenes.
Old classics of gothics are, I believe, REBECCA or WUTHERING HEIGHTS, and you'll find classic stories by Victoira Holt or Phyllis A. Whitney and (my favorite!) Mary Stewart. I loved Stewart's NINE COACHES WAITING. I read it years ago, but can still vividly recall several scenes, plus quote passages.
[This message has been edited by lindsay (edited May 20, 2004).]
posted
Sometime I've got to read some of SR's "sick" stuff. Just to satisfy my curiosity on that point. I'm betting that I'm a lot sicker than she'll ever be.
"Danse Macabre" is a pretty good example of what gothic means in describing fantasy/horror literature. The term refers to the medival portrayal of Death as a personal entity, who would come and dance you off to...well, being dead. The term invokes the feeling of supernatural dread that a person living in the Dark Ages felt about mysterious causes of death. Today, if I get sick, I wait it out. But if you get sick, you go to a doctor with full confidence that there will be a "rational" explaination for your illness and some treatment which will ameliorate or cure it. But back in the good ol' days, you would have rubbed your lucky rabbit's foot and prayed to St. Delirium, patron saint of I-hope-this-fever-doesn't-kill-me.
Whether this was really the case in that period of history is beside the point. We look back on that society as being characterized by ignorance, superstition, and fear. So we use association with the art and percieved "mood" of the Gothic period to evoke a sense of unease and mysterious danger. In our world, demons don't really lurk in the shadows...though a crazed serial killer might. The downside is that to do a scary serial killer, you have to show the evidence that he is out there. But in the medival world....
And we enter that world by association. Things that are old, and remind us of that era--at least the way we represent it in our minds--are used to put us back in a world where demons lurk in the dark, even though we haven't really seen them...yet.
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umm, Survivor, you were the one who told me that anyone who liked what I wrote was a sicko. LOL Back some time, when I asked for some readers in fragments and feedback--with the warning that it was very very dark. The story was called Forge of the Night Bird.
quote:All of which is to say that I didn't like the plot. That is not a valid literary criticism, I suppose, but it is probably the most serious problem with the story. If any readers tell you that they like this story, then either they are liars, fools, or sickos, in my opinion.
It was in Aug of 2002.
LOL
Shawn
[This message has been edited by srhowen (edited May 21, 2004).]
posted
Thanks for the answer. You really helped me. Especially your link, Shawn. I now see why King says that Straub "updated" the gothic novel with Ghost Story. A very fine read, by the way. I highly recommend it.
Posts: 14 | Registered: May 2004
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That was you? Shame on you, you freak! Ah, the hall of shame...SR. And you didn't take my criticism at face value either, did you? Oh, beware. That story went well beyond being dark, it was perverse.
But I'll stick to the hope that you're the type that hates critics but listens anyway.
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I always listen, doesn't mean I agree or that I have take the advice given--but I listen.
The story was a chunk taken out of a larger work--it freaked out a lot of people and others did like it--point is it stirred a strong reaction in people.
In my work since then I have achieved the same sort of reactions, but in a more subtle way.
And--if you remember the story two years after reading it--well, point made, it stirred a reaction that caused you to remember the story.
The work my agent is currently pitching does the same thing, but is not nearly as "dark"--dark in it's own way, but in more of a study of the soul's dark corners than anything else.
LOL
I wouldn't be where i am now without critics, and without the ability to decide what advice to take and what advice to leave.
You know, we all still tell stories about the time my brother woke up to find his son poking him in the side with a hunting knife. That was like...ten years ago or something. He claimed he didn't mean to do it. On cross examination, it turns out that he didn't mean for his daddy to wake up
Take that how you will, but remember that this was the same kid that said, "Daddy, when I grow up I'm gonna get a gun and shoot you."
So of course mein bruder figures on letting the kid join the Marines!
Ah, good times...what were we talking about? Oh, right. Of course I remembered the story. I remember the plot of Ishtar for crying out loud! I'm not the type to forget a story...just little things like the names involved and so forth.
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Well, all I can say is that we all learn and grow in our writing, or we'd stay in the same place on the path and never get to the point of an agent or publisher. And even then after working with an agent on making a novel a commercial work of fiction I learned a lot.
If you want I'll send you a chapter of the novel he's pitching right now so you can see the evolution.
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No not Nightbird, this one is called "Medicine Man"-- a synopsis (jacket type blurb) can be read at --http://www.zackcompany.com/titles/medicineman.htm
Right now 4 major publishers are considering it. (they have the full ms by request)
I'll send you the first three chapters. No I don't want a crit of it--LOL You can give an opinion, though. In fact I'd like a reader's opinion, not that it would cause any changes as it is already under consideration, but no one saw it after Andy and I spent months on rewrites etc.--well, except the publishers.
Shawn
[This message has been edited by srhowen (edited May 24, 2004).]
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I read it years ago, but can still vividly recall several scenes, plus quote passages.
In fact I'd like a reader's opinion, not that it would cause any changes as it is already under consideration, but no one saw it after Andy and I spent months on rewrites etc.--well, except the publishers.
