I'm writing a story being told from the protagonist's first-person POV, but in scenes where things happen that the boy can't possibly know about, I write from the 1st Person POV of the focus of that scene. I like to think of it as an interview. One large, 90K-word interview, told by those who were there.
What do you think? Good idea? Bad idea? Do I deserve to be put on a pedestal, or shot from a cannon with my writing liscence revoked?
CVG
[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited May 24, 2004).]
posted
In my personal opinion, take it or leave it, this would highly annoy me. To be honest, first person POV is not my favorite anyway.
One thing about first person POV that is difficult is establishing names and gender....how would you propose to do this with multiple first person POV's? Each chapter begins with "I", but how do we know which "I" you mean?
I think it would be jarring. I don't have a great explanation to why, and I'm sorry. I thought I did before I responded, but now I realize it's just sort of a gut "ewww." Maybe it would work better than I think....let's see what others think.
posted
Ewww. Oh wait, Christine already said that.
Okay, I say no holds barred with writing, so I'm not going to say it CAN'T work. However, I would think it would be VERY difficult to do well. If you do it well enough to win me (or whomever else) over, than more power to you.
One problem that immediately jumps out at me is that, with the opening of the first POV, you are establishing "This is the POV character." In first person, pretty much every reader is going to assume that means this will be the POV character throughout the whole book. You have to come up with a good reason to make me accept the POV changing in 1st person (ex. pages from another character's journal...that's the only one I can come up with off the top of my head. Spend some time on it and I'm sure you can do much better). If you don't give me a good reason to accept the POV shift, it's going to annoy me.
posted
At risk of being shot by everyone else in Hatrack, I don't think this is a bad idea, but it would work better if both points of view had the same importance. You can give us a parallel storyline, but I can't accept someone else telling, say, three pages, juste because it was convenient for you, the writer. On the other hand, if two main characters have the same importance, then using two 1st person POV does not shock me. To make it clear, you could preface each section with the name of the character telling it. However, this is more difficult to handle; consider yourself warned...
Posts: 121 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
There's a good Argentine mystery novel, Rosaura a las Diez, which tells the story from multiple first-person points of view. It's in the form of statements being given to the police.
The format makes for a fascinating book, because with each additional character you see some of the same events, but with completely different interpretations based on the biases of the character. That is something which could not be done well in 3PLO.
As for the problems of readers becoming disoriented as to which character is speaking, it is possible to overcome that with chapter headings or (if the setup of the story allows it) having the characters state their names right at the beginning of their sections.
"My name's John Doe, and I'm only talking to you because my wife Jane insists that I explain what really happened the day the aliens came to Tinyville."
posted
<Argh! Message board software ate my reply. Trying again>
There are several well known stories that are told from multiple 1st person POVs. The two examples that jump to my mind are Stevenson's "The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" (available online at http://www.bartleby.com/1015/ ) and Anne Rice's "The Vampire Lestat"
It's tough to make it work, but it can work well if the second viewpoint is used only once and is framed adequately, for example as a journal entry, or a monologue/statement of some kind. It sounds as though you're going with the statement route, so as long as you make this clear, you should get away with it.
posted
Predating "Interview" is Bram Stoker's Dracula, which is largely told in 1st person accounts. The thing that links these is that they all have a frame so that there is a reason why we are getting multiple 1st Person POV's
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Actually, I think that as long as you frame each first person account, there is no inherent problem with first person.
The problems with first person always arise because everyone always wants to write them without using any frames...if you're not going to use a frame, why the heck are you using a first person narrator?
Note Eric's example...each account is framed as a statement being given to investigators. Or what willy suggests, using journal entries. When you create versimilitude to an actual account (or collection of accounts), all the problems with first person disappear.
But if you're doing frameless first person, then consider whether you have any reason to write it as first person at all.
posted
That's a good point, Survivor, and I've read so many first person now that doesn't use frames at all that I immediately think about that. Most people who write in first person nowadays seem to just like using the word "I" and pretending to be the main character. But in my opinion, the first person that works best are the ones that gives us some reason tfor that first person narrator to be telling the story. In this way, if multiple first person narrators had reason to tell the story, then it might work.
The trouble is, and this is why I didn't think along those lines, cvgurau doesn't seem to bee saying that at all. His initial post (please correct meif I'm wrong) led me to believe that he's got a first person viewpoint character whost story this is, but a few scenes that character doesn't see that he wants to fill in with someoneelse. In the end, the character telling a first person narrative has to know everything that happened. Even if he found out later and is relating the events to you in chronological order. And if he found out what happened through any of the means mentioned above, or if someone else (with equal importance) has some reason to want to tell the story with him, then fine. But always remember in first person POV that it must make sense that this character is telling the story at all.
This is why I HATE first person present tense...talk about not making any sense. I just won't read it unless I have to for a class. (Always, so far, in critique form. I've never seen a professionally published story in this style.)
quote:This is why I HATE first person present tense...talk about not making any sense . . . . I've never seen a professionally published story in this style.
posted
That was an ignorant thing to say, Balthasar. If you've got examples, give them. Otherwise, don't hurl around meaningless insults.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Get your hands on Raymond Carver's Where I'm Calling From and you'll find several short stories written in first-person present tense. But for starters try "Gazebo," "Boxes," "Intimacy," "Whoever Was Using This Bed" and "Where I'm Calling From."
Get a copy of the Spring 2004 issue of Zoetrope All-Story and read Stacey Richter's "Twin Study."
Get a copy of The Year's Best SF I edited by David Hartwell and read Nancy Kress's story (damn it, I can't remember the title, but it's there, and it's written in first person present tense).
Get a copy of The Vintage Book of Contemporary American Short Stories edited by Tobias Wolff and read "Men Under Water" by Ralph Lombreglia, "Home" by Jayne Anne Phillips, and "Lawns" by Mona Simpson.
And for a novel, try Jon Hassler's The Dean's List.
"Alfred Bester Is Alive and Well and Living in Winterset, Iowa," by Bret Bertholf (F+SF, Sept 2003).
"I Killed Them in Vegas," by Esther M. Friesner (same issue).
"Pervert" by Charles Coleman Finlay (F+SF, March 2004).
I suppose I could work my way through all of my anthologies and magazines, but I think I made my point.
[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited May 25, 2004).]
posted
Edit - Eric - so cool - can't wait to buy it and read it! 1st person present tense can't be as irritating as 3rd person present tense (see below). - end edit
The meaning I got from the initial post was just about POV, not tense. The book we are reading/have read for June is done in 1st person, with three different POVs - each chapter has a header that says who the "info" is from (supposed to be character's journaling, or for archives), thus telling us whose POV it is (though we could get it in context too). The majority are from the mc, the second most are from the main person he interacts with, and the very last chapter is by another character - because it had to be told by him. I had no problems with the POV shifts - they made sense and worked for the story.
I think 'tactful' is what we are going for. Maybe instead of telling someone they are not well-read (which may not be the case as there is so much to read out there, and preferences vary), just kindly offer that suggested reading list. I admit, 1st person POV is not the most common that I've read. In the Dec 2003 Asimov's (I think!), there is a 3rd person present tense story ("Curator") that I admit I have not finished - I wasn't enjoying it, but that is MHO. "Sirhan stands on the edge of an abyss... He's wondering maliciously... Annoyed, Sirhan finds a grassy knoll..." It was like someone doing the royal "we" throughout a story, or speaking like Elmo!
[This message has been edited by punahougirl84 (edited May 25, 2004).]
posted
Actually, I've read some of those short stories you nentioned, or at least parts of them. I see the problem now. You only put one novel on the list and, generally speaking, I'm a novel reader. I've been trying to worm my way into short stories, but honestly, only recently have I begun trying to get ahold of short stories so I can appreciate the art of reading/writing them. I like the longer committment and deeper stories of novels. And, to be honest, I can see holding FPPT for a short story better than a novel. I did not like "Alfred Bester Is Alive and Well and Living in Winterset, Iowa," by Bret Bertholf (F+SF, Sept 2003). or "I Killed Them in Vegas," by Esther M. Friesner (same issue).
I'd have to go back and dig up that issue to find out why, but I recognized the titles and remembered not particularly enjoying them, and now they've gotten washed away in the general pile of not-quite-there.
Actually, Eric, I did a story in FPPT myself exactly one time...and I had a reason. The entire story was a playback of a telepathic recording, which means that, in fact, the narrator was walking around and doing things even as he told the story! I'll give yours a try when it comes out (let me know when) and try not to prejudice myself because of the tense.
posted
punahougirl84, I can't believe I forgot about that book already! And I only read it about a month ago. For those who are not keeping up with the book club selections, the June book, Deep Secret by Diana Wynne Jones, is told with multiple first person POV's....all in journal entries. I was actually ok with the two main characters going back and forth, although the first time it happened, we were already a few chapters in and the transition was so jarring I put the book down for a little while. I'll get into more of my opinions about how well it worked in the book club discussions next week.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
"Alfred Bester Is Alive and Well and Living in Winterset, Iowa" is the title of a story? That's weird. Was the story actually about Alfred Bester, or was the title just random? (for those not aware of his work: http://www.hycyber.com/SF/bester_alfred.html ) Posts: 626 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Actually, I have to side with Christine on this one, in spirit if not in point of fact. I've seen a lot of published stories that committed all manner of iniquity (including FPPT). But I don't recall actually reading any published story written in first person present tense.
It isn't that I wouldn't read such a story on principle, I just don't remember ever having done so (and mind you, my head is exploding with stories I've read...Do--do-se-do-se-fa--la-me--re-do...er, any of you seen the extended scenes from Shaolin Soccer? I guess this bit didn't make much sense, then ).
One. It's not first person present tense. I've thought about it, but I don't think I can pull it off effectively. Especially since I'm not a big fan of the present tense style. I've many books like this, and only liked one.
Two. The first chapter isn't set in stone. Yes, it's told from the POV of a secondary character, but it's the only time in the entire story I've done it so far, and I'm not planning on doing it again. I just thought it'd be interesting to see the protagonist (the story's told from his first person POV) through someone else's eyes, before we got into his mind. I'm not a fan of what someone here (sorry, can't remember who ) called mirror scenes, where a character casually passes a mirror and admires they manly cheekbones, or something. As this is the first draft of the novel, I figure it's still maleable enough to play around with, a little. I can decide later what to keep and what to throw away.
CVG
PS--A question. You've heard the theory that a good story screws with the characters until they can be screwed with no more? What do you think of that. For example, I've got a way to majorly screw my characters over, but it's so bad, I'm not sure I can go through with it. I like them. They're good people.
PPS--A correction. I don't think someone here said the mirror thing. I think someone at the sfwa website said it. My bad.
posted
A couple of things about the discussion here:
1--if you are going to write a story with multiple 1st person accounts, try very hard to make each of the different POV characters sound different (to help readers suspend disbelief about reading a story they know is written by only one individual).
2--first person present tense may not be all that common in written stories, but it is one of the most common ways people tell each other stories about things that have happened to them:
"I'm sitting there, minding my own business, when this guy comes up and sits down next to me and asks me if I know the way to San Jose."
posted
It's also the most common style for telling jokes.
A telepath and a pregnant centaur walk into a bar....
I recall hearing OSC talk about this issue, and he pointed out that if you are telling a story in first person present tense, and someone expresses doubt about what you're saying, you immediately shift to the past tense if you want to emphasize the truth of what you are saying: "It really happened!"
Except in the few cases where the narrator of the story is actually narrating as events happen, using the present tense is necessarily false. Since fiction is generally intended to give the illusion of truth (at least enough that the reader can suspend disbelief), using present tense tends to undermine that.
posted
Speaking of jokes, I just heard of a gal who gave up jogging on her lunch hour because her thighs kept rubbing together, setting her pantyhose on fire.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Try reading As I Lay Dying by Faulkner. Its a novel written in multiple first-person where there really isn't a main PoV character, each narrator is as important as the others.
Its a real masterpiece, technically as well as stylistically.
-LL
[This message has been edited by Lazarus Long (edited May 26, 2004).]
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) called mirror scenes, where a character casually passes a mirror and admires they manly cheekbones, or something. As this is the first draft of the novel, I figure it's still maleable enough to play around with, a little. I can decide later what to keep and what to throw away.
