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Author Topic: Fast-acting poison (old topic revisited)
QuantumLogic
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Try India.
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rickfisher
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Thanks, QL. When I get some of it, remind me to send you some of my home-made nachos.
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hoptoad
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Pituri, was an Australian Aboriginal drug that had to be made from a certain type of shrub that grew in a certain area. If it was made from a plant in a different place it was too strong and would kill you. It was known about in the 1880. It think it was some form of nicotine.

Another one was a seed, and I will have to go home and find the reference, but it was swallowed whole to induce an abortion. However, if you picked the wrong one or the outer covering of the seed was damaged and dissolved too quickly in your stomach you were a goner. They say between 30 - 50 percent of those who took the seed died as a result. It was quick, but I will find you the reference. They also used it as a decoration for ceremonial clubs and spears etc. It is red and black and shiny and very pretty, We used to have it growing at my school.


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mikemunsil
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quote:
We used to have it growing at my school.

Just out of sheer curiosity, how did the teachers fare? Ran through a lot of them, did you?


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Snowman
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Tetrodotoxin is the poison from puffer fishs. It blocks volted gated sodium channels. End result is basically you can't generate action potentials - your nerves don't work.

So your brain can't tell your muscles to work, your heart to beat, your lungs to breathe...etc


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Kickle
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I came back to read this thread because I was looking to see if there was any info on arsenic. As it happens I am writing a story about a glassblower and I was wondering, Mary, if you found any information specifically about glassblowing and arsenic poisoning? Sorry, not just Mary, anyones help would be welcome.

[This message has been edited by Kickle (edited May 13, 2005).]


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Survivor
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Hah, her story was totally about a glassblower who used a cyanide process to make the glass poisonous (and pretty). Then she changed it to an arsenic based poison.
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Kickle
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Thanks, I'll have to email her. This is an example of same poison, same job, same sex, but totally different stories.
By same sex I'm referring to the gender, wouldn't want any confusion.

[This message has been edited by Kickle (edited May 13, 2005).]


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MaryRobinette
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This is not specific to glassblowing, but it does pertain to arsine gas.

http://members.tripod.com/~Prof_Anil_Aggrawal/poiso026.html

The thing about arsenic and glass is that arsenic is used to create a opalescent finish. It's actually mixed in with the glass, rather than being a layer of pigment.


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Kickle
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Guilty of being a lazy reader. I looked at that link last night, but skimmed the beginning to get to the poison, and missed the symptoms. The first couple of paragraphs gives me all that I need. Thanks so much.
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JBSkaggs
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If the character was not a doctor or someother well informed person of the 1800's then the poison coices would be greatly limited. Most likely poisonous mushrooms in food, arsinic available at that time at most general stores as means to put down animals (rats, stray cats and dogs, etc) and rarely cyanide. Of course ground apricot pits was an easy source of poison and readily availbale and common knowledge.

One common form of poisoning then was not really poisoning but feeding contaminated foods such as eggs left in the sun, blood smeared on utensils and dishes, diseased animal parts mixed in with food and most vile mixing in sewage, wound drainage, or corpse meat. The practice of harvesting corpses for nefarious purposes was a problem worldwide and still is in some countries. In the USA Mississippi and Lousianna still have many cases of grave tampering. Death by what would be intentional food posioning would be very hard to prove and may take some time to achieve death. Although botulism was much more deadly in those days before we had readily designed medical treatments which are for the most part successful. Then one had to obtain a doctor to come by the house. if your poisoner was the same person who would get the doctor- oh well the victim was most likely doomed.

Another very common practice was placing glass, fibres, pieces of metal etc. There is a method today that is very quick. For example something that seems so harmless: Dietary fibre supplement powders mixed incorrectly (too little water) can choke one to death rather quickly. The mix when not accompanied by sufficent fluids swells rapidly filling the throat and part of sinuses blocking the airway- thus suffocating the victim. Which is why you never leave that stuff anywhere near children!


just some thoughts.

JB Skaggs


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HSO
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quote:
Dietary fibre supplement powders mixed incorrectly (too little water) can choke one to death rather quickly. The mix when not accompanied by sufficent fluids swells rapidly filling the throat and part of sinuses blocking the airway- thus suffocating the victim. Which is why you never leave that stuff anywhere near children!

Yikes! I suppose this in an instance where having a diet with plenty of natural fibre would be ideal, thus eliminating the need for supplements. "Pass the prunes, love!"


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Survivor
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This is why I eschew poison as a method of choice.
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Calfin
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Whoever suggested tobacco, thank you!

I also want to kill a character and I'm wondering if anyone knows how much tobacco is fatal(both by smoke inhalation and skin or mucous membrane absorption)in less than fifteen minutes.


Good luck, y'all with your writing!

[This message has been edited by Calfin (edited October 15, 2006).]


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MaryRobinette
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I just learned a new poison. Air! If you inject someone, putting a bubble of air in their veins, they will die of embolism or stroke.
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Calfin
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I <think> you need at least 150ml of air, though. Otherwise the bubbles just break down and get absorbed.
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JBSkaggs
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yeah it takes a lot of air. I used to have a terror of injections and had to have a doctor explain it all to me.

Salt is a hard to trace poison too.

In Southaven, MS a little known story of a male nurse injecting Puss into a patient happened around 1994. It may have been urban fantasy but I was told by a surgical nurse at the hospital there that they had nurse doing that and had him arrested.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Calfin, have you done a websearch on the terms "nicotine poisoning" specifically?

I just tried that in Google and found what looks like a nice list of sites including ones like this:

http://www.oklahomapoison.org/prevention/nicotine.asp


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Calfin
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Yeah, I did a lot more searching after I posted the message. Problem solved, but I'll check out your site anyway, Kathleen. The more info the better. Thanks!
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MaryRobinette
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*bump*
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Varishta
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Thanks for bumping this up -- very useful
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Mudbrain
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Aconite, aka: Monkshood and Wolves Bane

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Inkwell
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Ya know what really scares me in this particular topic? Nanopoisons. Yep, you heard me right. Why does the poison have to be a chemical or natural (organic) substance? It might be possible to create nanodevices capable of killing an individual at a preset time, giving the appearance of a natural death (like a heart attack or stroke). Protection against such a 'poison' would be nearly impossible. And think of all the ways one could deliver a 'smart' substance.

Just a (scary) thought.


Inkwell
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"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous


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Elan
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I just love how this thread resurfaces on such a regular basis.

I ran across this link not too long ago. Not entirely about poisons, but a lot of really obscure and useful native and aboriginal herbal treatments.

Ethnobotanical and Native Herbal Treatments
http://www.siu.edu/~ebl/


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Survivor
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Nano"poison"s would be difficult to engineer, so it would be fairly easy to check for them in most cases. Protection would be costly and rather silly, like wearing full combat armor all the time.

The really scary thing...um, I don't know.


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Elan
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I had to ressurrect this thread to announce:
Death by Chocolate. Article on CNN.com

quote:
The book, "Striking Back," ... author Aaron Klein describes how Israel tracked down Wadia Haddad, an operative of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, in Baghdad. ...In Baghdad of 1977, luxuries like fine chocolates were rare. Through a Palestinian working with the Mossad who had gotten close to Haddad, the agency was able to feed Haddad chocolate brought from Belgium and spread with poison over six months, Klein said.

Haddad died in March 1978, showing only symptoms of leukemia but no signs of poisoning...


Not the fast-acting poison the initial thread questioner sought, but an interesting one nonetheless.


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MaryRobinette
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Cool and horrifying. I love stuff like this.
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Elan
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Yeah, Mary Robinette, now you have me collecting poison info whenever I run across it, in the event I need it (for STORIES! Not for real!) I found a recent National Geographic with cool information about forensic poison detection... (it had a BIG ass spider on the cover.) One of the forensic investigators says she knows how to poison someone so it's undetectable, but she refused to tell the author what that method was.

But death by chocolate?... man, that method would sure work on me, should I ever piss someone off....


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nitewriter
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Australia has something like the the top 13 deadliest snakes in the world. Some include the Brown, Tiger snake, Fierce snake, and the Taipan to name a few. However, snake venoms do present a problem. Fact is some people actually drink snake venom for various (and crazy) reasons with little or no ill effect.

However, you might wish to investigate the ever popular method of offing someone with poisonous mushrooms. One in particular, is a member of the Amanita group and named, appropriately, "Destroying Angel." I once read that one of these mushrooms is so quick that by the time they have figured out what you ate that is making you sick, it is already too late. Eating one of these little beauties is tantamount to suicide.

Plutonium has been named the most toxic substance, but not suitable for what you are doing. However, another substance is right up there for such honors, ranking second and actually first for something not giving off radiation. I think you should take a close look at ricin = generally considered the most lethal substance known.


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trousercuit
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Holy heck! I just looked up ricin, and it's scary stuff. Highlights:

- Takes only a few hundred micrograms to kill you
- Can be administered just about any way (in food, by injection, by just spraying someone with it or releasing it into the air)
- No widely-available, reliable test exists to detect it
- Always fatal with sufficient dosage
- No antidote: best known treatment is to treat symptoms and hope the patient doesn't die before ricin is flushed (3-5 days)

It's slow-acting (disrupts protein production) and non-persistent, however, which limits its uses compared to, say, cyanide. But dang if it isn't potent!


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Jammrock
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Well, by the 1880's just about everything in the world was available in Europe, it being the height of Imperial Britan. There are snake venoms that will kill someone in 5-30 minutes. The trick with poisons (not from experience mind you, but from research) is not necessarily to kill someone quickly, but to keep them from knowing they have been poisoned until it's too late and they are very dead.

Thus a tasteless poison with a delayed reaction would be best to kill say ... a nobleman who has a food tester. The tester would eat the food, find nothing wrong, but 45 minutes later drop dead. By then it's too late to save the noble.


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Survivor
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Plutonium is assumed to be highly poisonous, because it is a highly radioactive heavy metal. But, as of yet, there isn't any firm evidence that it is very dangerous at all. It's only been tested on humans who were very close to death.

Uranium, on the other hand, is proven to be extremely deadly, particularly when oxidized. Plutonium, though chemically very different, does form aqueously soluable oxides as well.

The trick of poisoning someone undetectably is to make it look like the person wasn't being poisoned. Thus, short of not killing the victim or even causing any symptoms not easily put down to mild illness, you must disguise the underlying cause of whatever debilitating effects you wish to cause. Any method of poisoning becomes detectable once you suspect poison enough to check for everything.

I would use a slightly modified inscecticide administered while the victim was driving or operating heavy machinery. There are classes of substances that will effectively "autodigest" during action, such that if no test is made for the poison within a few days of death the poison will be effectively impossible to detect. This is a marked advance over metallic based poisons, which remain in the corpse forever. But using such a substance is usually a direct lead back to the killer if it is discovered. So it is best if you can make the death look accidental.


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MaryRobinette
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I continue to love this stuff.

However, I should point out that this thread started in 2004 and I've not only completed the story, but also sold it. This thread is a great reference, but don't worry about the parameters of my initial query.


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Inkwell
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^^^
That's okay...some of us need focal parameters in order to dredge up new ideas. I'm not referring to myself, of course.

Really.

I'm being serious!

Stop laughing!


Inkwell
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"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous


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Inkwell
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Sorry to double-post, but I just remembered reading that cyanide, ricin, dioxin, etc. are "'lightweights' compared to the protein-based botulin toxin, produced by botulinum bacteria and associated with botulism, the most severe form of food poisoning. It’s arguably the most deadly poison in the world...nearly 1000 times as toxic as dioxin." For comparison's sake, dioxin is roughly equal (in terms of toxicity) to ricin.

However, this bacterium is anaerobic (ergo, it 'grows' poorly in an oxygen atmosphere), and is difficult to produce in large quantities without specialized facilities. This also makes it extremely hard to use in an aerosol-weapon capacity, although lacing a substance (i.e., a cigarette, cigar, lollypop, inhaler, etc.) in which the bacteria could survive would solve the problem.

Another really scary thing about it is that "common nerve agent treatments (namely the injection of atropine and 2-pam-chloride) will increase mortality by enhancing botulin toxin's mechanism of toxicity."

The stuff's also been around (as a known substance) since the middle of the 19th-century, though it was not likely a 'workable' tool of assassination or weapon until the early 20th-century.


Inkwell
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"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous

[This message has been edited by Inkwell (edited May 08, 2006).]


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Survivor
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Yes, medical quality nerve agents make very good poisons. On the other hand, very few of them are difficult to trace, anything that is a widely used pharmaceutical would be very easy to identify, no matter how tiny the necessary lethal dose.

The general idea with poisoning, after all, is to get away with it.


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kings_falcon
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"Maybe we'll do in a squirrel or two as we poision the pigeons in the park, we'll murder them all amid laughter and merriment execpt for the ones we take home to experiement" - Tom Leher

For poisions great and small you might want to look at "Horse Owner's Field Guide to Toxic Plants" by Sandra Burgur and Anthony P. Knight, BVCS, MS, MRCVS. It lists all known toxic plants in the United States, including symptoms of poisioning and known cures.

On Foxglove:
"Its toxic principles are saponins, alkaloids, and the cardiac glycosides ditoxin, digitalin and digoxin. When consumed it takes only a few hundredths of a percents of an animal's weight to be fatal. Toxicity is not affected by drying or aging. Signs of poisioning: Colic, bloody feces, poor appetite, pain, frequent urination. irregular heartbeat and pulse, and convulsions are possible symptoms in the horse before death."

My current favorite is:

Oleander: A woody evergreen bush, native to Asia but cultivated in the southern regions of the west coast and the Southern United States. "Cardiac glycosines, the the toxic principle, are found throughout the plant. It takes only 1 ounce of leaves to kill a large horse (1700-1800 lbs). of .0005 percent of its body weight. Do not burn this plant, as the smoke is also toxic." Signs of poisioning "diarreha, trembling, and cold extremities. Paralysis, cardiac arrest, and coma followed by death will occur if a fatal amount is ingested."


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tchernabyelo
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Oleander's that poisonous? Is that to humans, too?

There are some plants in Namibia - Euphorbia species, IIRC - that are extremely poisonous to humans - a road-mending gang barbecued their food over a fire including some dried sticks from the plant, and 24 of them died as a result. That's nasty. On the other hand, rhinos can apparently eat it without any ill effects.


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kings_falcon
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Yes, Oleander is poisonous to humans:

http://mason.gmu.edu/~cdyke1/projects/oleander.html


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kings_falcon
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This is also another good website and deals with different poisions:

http://www.ttrotsky.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/tech/poison.htm


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hoptoad
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I had a large Euphorbia sp in my backyard and it was dropping prickly things all over the place so I cut it down. Thhe wood was brilliant yellow, and it was beautiful but the tiny particles got into my eyes and the swelled shut and the next day they were crusty. The same thing happeend to my mum when the neighbour cut down their oleander... and her eyelashes fell out.



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'Graff
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See, this is why I love this forum: little tid-bits like that that you don't get elsewhere. I mean, sure, it helps to know that oleander causes cardiac arrest, but it can also make your eyes swell and your eyelashes fall out. It's the attention to detail like that that makes me love this forum--especially this thread.

-----------
Wellington


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kings_falcon
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While oleander is not the most poisonous in my handy dandy little book (there are actually a few other plants that can kill on lower percentages), it seems to have the most options for delivery. I particularly liked the idea of the smoke being toxic. What a way to do in a character - let him/her put the dried plant (remember its a woody shrub) on the fire.

[This message has been edited by kings_falcon (edited June 01, 2006).]


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kings_falcon
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Bump
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SimonSays
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I'm not sure if this would be better off as a seperate topic, but WHAT ABOUT ANTIDOTES ? I read an interesting article a couple years back about travelers (in the Amazon region I think)who successfully used the current from the starter of the outboard motor of their boat to neutralize the venom of a snakebite. The snake venom was I recall very lethal ,and they were a couple of days away from the nearest village with medical facilities. Apparently some(most?) venoms are fairly large molocules that are somewhat unstable. If it is a neurovenom maybe the current denatures the protein so that it can no longer bind to the neurons blocking the neurotransmitters and stop the victims breathing or heart.
I use two senarios similar to the one above in my story "Snow White Succubus"... Except my m.c. uses bio-electricity in one instance, and a stun gun in another. The bio-electric scene is somewhat magical/mystical, so I'm not too worried about the specific details there...But my stun gun scene is worrying me now. Stunguns(I believe)use very high voltages but not much amperage. Does anyone here know if that might make a difference? Surely there are some people here with electrical (and or medical) background/knowledge.

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J
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You could actually find this one out through experimentation. Get a stun gun. Shoot it at a raw egg and see what happens. If nothing turns white, it won't denature protien and won't (by your theory) neutralize poison.

If you don't want to purchase a taser, then tape an egg to the center of your chest and aggravate a local police officer. Be sure to request the egg when they're checking out of the overnight lockup so that you can check on your results.


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Survivor
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That result won't be fully valid for neurotoxins, which are far more complex than the simple proteins found in eggs.

On a more general note, the higher voltage of stun guns usually causes the current to travel mostly along the skin, which is one reason they're called "stun" guns rather than "lethal heart attack" guns. However, if you stuck the probes directly into the injection site, you might overcome this to a degree.

One thing you won't overcome, stun guns are designed to deliver maximum debilitating pain for minimum tissue damage. The spark from an outboard motor ignition circuit is designed to...well, burn things rather than cause pain. It's also high voltage (and relatively low amperage), but it's...different. Unpleasant, but bearable.

If you want other means to micro-cauterize a poisoned wound, I'd try a needle and candle approach. Messy, more tissue damage than you'd really want, painful, but it beats a stun gun in my thinking.


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kings_falcon
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quote:
If you don't want to purchase a taser, then tape an egg to the center of your chest and aggravate a local police officer. Be sure to request the egg when they're checking out of the overnight lockup so that you can check on your results.

J - that was way too funny.

It would also give you something to eat while you waited for them to drag the magistrate out of bed for your bond hearing.


I don't know about venom but for Oleander there is no specific treatment although the book recommends activated charcoal via stomach tube (eeeew!), IV fluids and some cardiac medications and EKG monitoring until the symptoms pass or the victim succumbs. I mean after that point it truely would be beating a dead horse. CPR on a horse is just no fun.


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Ellepepper
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Arn't you missing the obvius Sodium cyanide.
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Survivor
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As...an antidote?
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