And then, when Marta is severely injured, the tables are turned and physically Marta is now at the mercy of Helmut, and Helmut must make a decision.

But, I am not (thankfully) very familiar with abusive relationships, and I am looking for any guidance, references (fiction and otherwise) and ideas that you might have to help me convincingly move the relationship forward as the story unfolds.

To be more succint, HELP!!!!

[ I need somebody,
[ No, not just anybody,
[ Help! I need you....

Mike

However, I know people who have. A relative of mine was emotionally abused by his exwife and says that is much worse than phisical abuse.

How did you intend that the "weaker party" should manipulate their abuser? In what way?

I was the child of such a relationship, though have never been in an abusive relationship myself. I swore I never would be.

But I do have some fisrt hand knowledge of what it is like to be mentally abused. The first thing to remember is that physical abuse is visible...mental is not. Also in my case, the mental abuser (x-wife) wanted to be physically abused. It took me four years to figure that out, she was good at it, but that quickly ended our marrage. I reached a point where the thought of hitting her became a "happy" thought. I had no interest in going to jail, so I ended it.

Depending upon the mental condition of both characters, there will be many different possibilities on how the abuse ends up being exchanged. Was Helmut abused/molested/badly treated/tramatic experience or a long list of other bad things. The younger the suffering, the more messed up they get. I would imagine, and this is just a concept based all I've learned, anyone who uses manipulation well, would have a high probability of having been abused when they were young. It would have to be extended abuse where the physical threat was over them all the time. Learning to manipulate someone who holds that superiour role, would give the weaker person a form of victory over the one controling them. Naturally once they discover how easy it is to manipulate people, they fine tune it and use it all the time. Any situation would result in manipulation first, and if that failed...try a different tactic.

I would think that some of them would even look for a partner who would treat them in a manner similar to the tramatic time that caused them to be that way. For some reason they are more comfortable suffering, than when everything is good.

I could go on and on, but I do my best to not dwell on it. For this story you will need to do a bit of research. I would suggest comming up with a complete background, understand why each one acts the way they do. If you understand their personality, they will clash without problem.

She changed jobs, moved house - did the whole "give up everything" - to be with her partner. This didn't work out. He was physically and mentally abusive and she eventually left him. There was a certain element of the stalker about him which didn't help matters.

However, she still kept in touch with him. She moved again and got him to sell her car - then had to go and get the cheque from him herself etc. There are many more incidents of this type of thing.

I'm not entirely sure who was pulling whose strings. I'm no psychologist. Where one used physical strength to dominate, they both used mind games. I dont know if she got off on the drama of it or simply didn't realise that she was just fuelling his obsession with her. Both parties are to my mind abusing this relationship, but in entirely different ways.

I think LDS has it right. Work out the characters first. What makes each one tick? What makes them clash? Remember that they might not realise it about themselves - it might take another party to see the pattern.

I see that I'm going to have to look at your messages very closely this evening when I have more time, as there is so much in them. However, what I can immediately see, is that:
1) I'm going to have to spend more time working on the history of the characters prior to the events of the story, to make the current relationship "work" so to speak
2) Co-dependency is important and I will have to work on that angle
3) I'm going to have to think really clearly on how important these characters are to the plot, because of the response I have received from you. I had intended this to be just a side-plot (don't know the real terminology, so please forgive the language) but if physical/emotional abuse and co-dpendency raise a strong emotional response in the readers, then the whole plot and the protagonists/antagonists warrant re-thinking.

Thank you again. This kind of thing is invaluable.

Wonder what the "experts" say about the sexual abuse angle?

If you decide to use a support structure as a means of resolving the conflict, you need to decide of the codependent person is merely switching hosts or actually choosing to recover.

On the sexual abuse angle, I'd say it depends. It's no more categorically true than substance abuse, child abuse, eating disorders or excessive video game/computer use. Sure, at least one of those things is likely to happen but one can't tell exactly which.

Still, if one is in an emotionally abusive relationship and the sex is "normal", that's not normal. If you follow me.

[This message has been edited by pooka (edited July 26, 2004).]

the manipulative one is usually drawn to the physically abusive, then uses the manipulation effect to survive and justify their existance with the physically abusive one. usually, the co-dependant, or manipulator has no real support, and only a few friends -- but the physically abusive partner will in ways strive to end those ties usually with fits of anger and threats, and the co-dependant will acquiese to these demands because in the back of their minds they will justify it as ok.

Secondary gain from victimhood is another feature. That is, for some reason the person wants to be victimized. But it is very seldom conscious.

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But if this isn't something with which you are familiar, why do you want to write about it?

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I think that if a person stays in any sort of unhealthy relationship (and by this I mean any human relationship), you could call it "codependent".

For instance, "normal" sex (which is to say, the kind of sex found in a typical relationship) is usually somewhat emotionally abusive. Men and women seed different things from a sexual relationship. Whether the relationship is nominally transactional or openly adversarial, it is typical for each partner to view the relationship and the sexual act in terms of his/her own needs and desires. "I am in bed with you to get X, Y, and Z." Relationships where each partner is thinking more about what the other needs are the exception rather than the rule, and this always has been and always will be the case.

The same is not just true of "normal" sex, but of almost all interpersonal behavior. When we find someone that really thinks of the good of both parties, we recognize a saint.

It is also important that we recognize that a person that is fully conscious of and in control of an "abusive" behavior for understood gains is not an "abuser" at all. Such people use others, they do not simply abuse them, and their behavior doesn't follow the "pattern" of abuse. Rather, they commit each particular instance of "abuse" for specific, limited gains. We all occasionally get particular gains from doing something wrong, from lying (to avoid an unpleasant scene) to premeditated murder (for a million dollars). Because we do these things for the gain rather than for the thing itself, pathological liars and serial killers are less common than the ordinary liar or murderer.

For that reason, I wouldn't regard it as a criterion for "codependent" or "coabusive" behavior that the person doing it be consciously aware of "secondary gains" or anything like that. It is only necessary that the coabuser actually do things that worsen or exacerbate the abuse, and that "secondary gains" from the abuse itself be clearly recognizable from the outside. For instance, if a woman is involved with a man who is abusive and stays with him for gains that are unrelated to the abuse, such as avoiding poverty and loss of her children through divorce, then she probably shouldn't be called "codependent" any more than anyone else should be. But if she's staying because the "make-up-sex" is really great or because "he needs her" or anything like that, then yeah, she's almost certainly codependent and is likely to be semi-deliberately contributing to the abuse.

Looks okay...I could collect sources on most of these, but frankly I can also collect sources that say the moon is made of green cheese.

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Relationships where each partner is thinking more about what the other needs are the exception rather than the rule, and this always has been and always will be the case.

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I have been reading this weird book called "The Power of Now" where there is consciousness, or Now-ness. Then there is common unconcsciousness, or a normal level of anxiety, fear and regret. Then he talks about deep unconsciousness, which he equates to violence and other "thinking animal" quality behavior. I think sex is usally (unless it is your job) going to lead to deep-unconsciousness or a consciousness shared with a loved one.

In that casual sex has become more common, and there is a certain percentage of sick marriages, it may be that the majority of sex is co-abusive/deeply unconscious/resistant. But I wouldn't call it the exception rather than the rule.

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For instance, "normal" sex (which is to say, the kind of sex found in a typical relationship) is usually somewhat emotionally abusive. Men and women seed different things from a sexual relationship. Whether the relationship is nominally transactional or openly adversarial, it is typical for each partner to view the relationship and the sexual act in terms of his/her own needs and desires. "I am in bed with you to get X, Y, and Z." Relationships where each partner is thinking more about what the other needs are the exception rather than the rule, and this always has been and always will be the case.

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On the abuse thing. There is a book called "Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty" by Roy F. Baumeister that's very interesting. The title sort of says it all. It has a section on abuse (or at least pieces of chapters) but it also looks at other kinds of violence. What's best about it is that it doesn't just look at the really f***ed up people, but also at the average person. I personally find the residual knowledge very helpful, both in writing and in acting.

I hadn't really thoght of including sex in the abusive relationship I was penning, as I'm not at all sure that I could bring it off in a manner that would advance the story, and I have no interest in sensationalism. However, I've been "listening" to this entire discussion with a kind of fascinated horror, and I now wonder if I shouldn't bring the "possibility" of sex (and it's abuses in an abusive relationship) into play, if only to invoke similar fascination in the reader. However, that again would make the sideline too strong, and would take away from the story I started. Which story I need to finish, if only to prove to myself that I can.

And anyway, I took another look at my two characters...

>>Marta and Helmut

Nearby, near enough to see the flames glow in the mist, two travelers paused upon the riverside cartway. Marta, the taller and more impressive of the two, had seen more hard summers than was kind to mention. She was scrawny, and no man would consider bedding her without first dipping her for fleas, scrubbing her with lye soap, and perhaps, covering his eyes. Despite this, and plain to all, she moved with grace and an ease that showed years of training in the martial arts; training perhaps refined in the harsh school of war.

Her companion was startling, at first, in the physical beauty that showed through the dirt. Helmut could have been a god, from the waist up, and if his inner spirit had matched even that half he would have commanded armies, owned lands, and inspired fear. As it was he inspired only contempt in those who viewed him now. For if ever a man could have overcome the deformity of the twisted, stunted legs that bore him, surely the man of that face could have. Surely the man who wore that noble visage would encounter life head on, and demand respect, even from his enemies. But the man who crouched at Marta's side, trembling, was a thief. He stole hope from all who looked at him and saw the groveling wretch he was. He stole dreams from the eyes of the young and brave memories from the old; for he was a man who feared, above all, feared life and living.

Thus together they stood; Marta with hand upon her dagger and Helmut crouched and wary.<<

...and frankly the thought of sex between those two boggled my mind!!!!

Apologias

My apologies in advance to all you fine women who feel insulted by my description of Marta. Please remember, this is fiction and in this universe the men were neither overly polite nor politically correct. In sum, my "attitude" towards women in the novel is a fiction. Consider this, if I pissed you off (some of my critiquers were offended), then you were reacting to that uncharitable worldview, and I succeeded at least temporarily in creating the momentary suspension of disbelief.

Now, feel free to fire away, if you will. I'm a big boy. I can take it. And if I can't, I'll sick my Mom on you. She's 82 but still feisty!!!

Mike

[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited July 29, 2004).]

Without asking you to rewrite for me, could I ask that you make another comment about why the Helmut character doesn't work for you?

I wanted a character who generated disgust in the eyes of the people who saw him, but who had potential to be more than he is. Am I just way over the top with this description? Perhaps I am trying to do too much in too few words? Perhaps he doesn't need to be physically disfigured?

Don't overlook the possibilities of desperation, some people who are not good socially can end up with people that are very messed up.

Mike, I'm still curious about your motive, what you are trying to accomplish in this story.

In the fragment you shared, it seemes immediately apparent that Marta is the victim and Helmut the controller.

Let's see, what's a good movie we can have you watch to grasp the concept of codependence? I'm not coming up with one off the bat because in Hollywood they don't go for depth. Victims are victims and abusers are abusers in Hollywood. Even "When a Man Loves a Woman" which was supposed to be about codependence, didn't do a great job.

Here is my intent:

In the framework of a fantasy novel, I wished to explore the ideas of obsession and abusive relationships as instruments of change on a grand scale.

To me, an abusive relationship is all about obsession and control.

So, here goes:

The meddling of an obsessive human sorcerer prematurely awoke a gestating godling. the woken/invoked godling invested itself in one of two characters who are obsessed, one with the other. The obsessive relationship is mutually abusive, and as the godling tends to learn from its host until such time as it develops its own personality, the premature "birth" of the godling into a faulty human host is fairly disastrous for all involved, and for the region in general resulting in great change.

I figured to engage the reader by having the godling invest in one of two otherwise insignificant and faulty human characters. The combination of human faults and godlike powers would cause events to occur that drive the action forward. Most of the other characters will be shown to be wildly scrambling just to survive, although at least one charater, the sorcerer, is so obsessed with acquiring silver that he ignores the potential danger represented by the nascent godling, until events move apace and he is done in by his obsessive greed.

There. ;-)

Mike

I'll put that aside, I suppose. You asked about Helmut. He's a man, right? What is the single most important physical feature of an attractive man? His stature. This is a combination of several things, body proportions, height, and posture are probably the big three. If all you can see is his head, then the posture and expression are of preeminent importance. Saying that a guy was great looking except for his deformed legs, groveling posture, and wretched expression simply makes no sense whatsoever.

If you tell me that a guy looks like a god from the waist up, I'll expect he's a centaur or something like that. Something that would clearly not impair his stature. If you said "on horseback, he would have seemed a god" I'll be prepared to believe that he has stunted legs or something, but still won't believe that he has poor posture and a mean expression.

>>>Huh? If one of these characters is about to be invested with god-like powers and will act out patterns based on this co-abusive relationship or whatever, then I would say that it definitely can't be a sideline or whatever.<<<

But you haven't met all the other characters, so I' not surprised you're confused. You're assuming they are Marta and Helmut and that one of them will be invested.

Not so. And, I was intending to keep the reader guessing for quite a while.

>>>I'll put that aside, I suppose. You asked about Helmut. He's a man, right? What is the single most important physical feature of an attractive man? His stature. This is a combination of several things, body proportions, height, and posture are probably the big three. If all you can see is his head, then the posture and expression are of preeminent importance. <<<

Gosh, I wouldn't have a clue about what makes a man attractive, but IF I had to guess, I would have said, "his character".

Perhaps some of the ladies would weigh in? My guess is that there would be as many opinions as there are women, but I could well be surprised.

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And can somebody PLEASE tell me how to quote so that it shows up the way you guys are doing it?

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Oops! No need.

I'm not sure why you want to keep the reader guessing. Your relationship is to the story and characters, not the reader. If the reader can feel you trying to "get at him" through the story, I don't think that is how you get the love of the reader. If you are in love with your story and characters, the reader with then be attracted to it. Just as a sweeping overgeneralization on the whole philosophy of authorship :grin:

I think one of the more important points that I have learned here is that is that I can be much more subtle about rendering a character to achieve the results I am after.

Kaput.

Incinerated.