My present WIP is a high fantasy which was uniquely all mine (beings, language, etc.). I had it worked out nicely, then for some stupid reason I felt an urge to include the "standard" fantasy fare: Elves, Dwarves, wizards, etc....
I have no idea why. I just one day felt that I needed to add these elements. Well, now I'm thinking that was Rich just being foolish (the moment of 'inspiration' came right after reading "Sword of Shanarra" and "LOTR" for the umpteenth time).
So the question (think of it as a poll):
If you're writing/reading a new fantasy novel, would you find it derrivative or cliche to use Elves and Dwarves and such (standard fanstasy fare)? Would it be best to create your own peoples/races or would it be perfectly acceptable to use these types so long as it were unique and not just a copy of Tolkien or others?
posted
I think elves and dwarves have been used in lots of ways, by lots of different writers. They were not invented by Tolkien.
Posts: 497 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for fantasy writers to start using their own fresh races, creatures, and plots. I am sick to death of elves, dwarves, etc. The reason you feel this need is likely due to the cliches...when someone says fantasy you think elves, dragons, dwarves, etc. This isn't the way it has to be. Fantasy is a genre in which ANYTHING can happen...so let it.
My current fantasy novel is contemporary, but I also have FUTURE fantasy; novel on the back burner. Except in short stories, I've never ocnsidered putting a fantasy in the age of swords and horses. I've also never put in the cliches races. I do this because I love magic, it's fun, it makes me feel free. But I don't love the way it's always been done, I want something new and fresh. I think fantasy is ready for arevolution and if I have my way, I'll be at the head of that revolution.
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Do elves and dwarves take away from fantasy? No, of course not. They're easy to use because people know immeadiatley what to picture. Do you need to use them? No. I agree with Christine, it would be nice to see some fresh.
Posts: 1473 | Registered: Jul 2004
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It comes down to whether or not the author can make the reader believe. I have had this discussion a million times on a number of related subjects and it all comes down to quality. With the proliferation of such stereotyped characters (like elves with the popularity of LOTR) the bar is raised and a higher standard is required to reach the reader and make inspire them.
Best advice : Make it real to you, believe in it as a story and describe what you see. Don't add elements because you think that's what other folks want to see, because an informed reader will see that as fraudulent. And don't try and be too clever or too unique. . . . readers can see when you are trying to hard too.
posted
I don't see anything wrong with Dwarves, elves, etc. But I am tired of seeing them done the same way (ie. High Tolkien). Mix it up a bit.
Posts: 652 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I find too many new books try to do old things in a new way. Don't use the same types of creatures but interpret them radically differently.
Use dwarves and elves and wizards, but make them your own in small ways. Drastic re-definition is useless. It would only turn off readers. If the differences are great, just make them new characters.
That said, I would not use all of them in a story. A couple dwarves, elves, or wizards are fine, but if you have all three types you risk cliches.
posted
Ditto to GZ and ambongan, in that if you are going to use them, please make them fresh.
I'll also add not only no to Tolkienesque but also a BIG NO!!! to FRGP interpretations of elves, dwarves, wizards, orcs, goblins,ogres, dragons, etc. When I get a story that seems to me nothing more than a rehash of FRPG games I have to go beat my head against the wall for a while before I rip it to shreds and consume it forthwith. If I wanted FRPG I'd go join a game!!
Please, at least make them unique and fresh!
Susan
PS: FRPG == Fantasy Role Playing Games, the best known of which is Dungeons and Dragons (tm)
posted
I meant to say incoherent babble, but somehow a space crept in there.
Fantasy is different things to different people. I am a moderator on another writer's message board and we have been at war over their as to whether Tolkien was really a master or a boring windbag. . (Personally, I go with THE master, but...)
Some folks my get to end of a story you wrote that meets with success and say "Where is the fantasy? I mean the hero slays the villian and saves the kingdom, but no dwarves, elves, or dragons? That's weak!" Others may roll their eyes reading the back cover teaser and seeing the word "Elf"
A friend asked me to help him come up with a name for a race of people in his story. They were elves and he said so. Call them elves! If it walks like an elf, talks like and elf, smells like an elf, sorry, bro. It's an elf. Don't leave your reader sitting there thinking you are silly. Make your world/story seamless. Be clever without telling the reader "hey, I'm trying to be clever here"
If elves, dwarves, orcs, wizards, etc are part of your story, make them feel like they belong there.
posted
Man, I'm struck by this problem a lot. Whenever I think about it I don't think of elves and dwarves of distinct species. I usually think of them as some sort of breed of human. <i>homo pointy-earus</i> or <i>homo shortnus</i>. Maybe that's just me. I personally like the classic interpretation of these beings (I mean the folk lore one). What I think is that unless there is a reason for them to be there then I shouldn't really put them in there.
That brings up the question of what exactly makes fantasy fantasy. I mean I wrote a story that was devoid of magic and strange creatures but if I had to pick a genre I would say it was fantasy. If it's not set on Earth and it's not set in a future spawned by our earth does that make it fantasy? I think that's a kind of interesting question.
I like the idea of elves being crafty and obnoxious little beings, with men being the noble (yet inherently flawed) creatures. I also like the idea of vampires. One of my problems with contemporary fantasy creatures is that they seem to be almost always better than men without any apparent weaknesses (unless of course they're evil in which case they're cannon fodder). How does that happen?
I'm sure I restated myself two or three times there.
posted
Ok just ask yourself the following questions.
1. Are the elves, dwarves etc really relevant to the plot? 2. Do I need a bunch of pointy eared almost perfect people? 3. Who would be scared of a four foot high dwarf, with a ludicrous beard, who cannot run fast and cannot ride? Sounds like cannon fodder to me.
posted
If you have a well planned world, with coherent rules, it is madness to 'bolt-on' inhabitants that are clearly from someplace else.
But here-in lies the risk, it is easy very when writing a fantasy novel to be so involved with you background, languages, maps, cultural discourse etc that you spend the whole time explaining the backstory and never get to the front-end of the story.
posted
Why is it that the minute someone lables their character as a "dwarf" or an "elf" the genre suddenly becomes fantasy? And I'm serious about this question. It would be great for someone to put these races in a sci-fi. Point me out to the story that does if I've missed it!
I think it's fine to use elves and dwarves, but the problem I project is that eveyone who reads your story will come to the table with certain assumptions about your character. In their mind, he/she is already steryotyped with certain characteristics of being an "elf" or "dwarf" or whatever. And, depending on the source of their pre-concieved assumptions, for example Tolkien vs. Dungeons & Dragons, they will have very different steryotypes in their minds. I think it is important early on to establish not only what your character is like, but how the "race" acts in your world too. This will save alot of frustration on the part of the reader when they find our their assumptions are wrong.
More power to you, if you come up with a new race!
posted
I have an idea I'm toying around with that does what you're saying, Lorien. I've also seen some stories online that do the same, but the quality is mediocre.
But first, I must finish the projects I've already started. Including my own version of the "Three Billy Goats Gruff".
posted
If you want to do elves and dwarves in a non-fantasy setting, then you simply have to start out by calling them somthing different. I'm guessing that it would have to be SF of some kind.
"Dwarves" is a term specific to fantasy, the correct non-fantasy term is "dwarfs". "Elves" is also pretty specific to fantasy and has no non-fantasy equvalent other than "elfin" (which is obviously not a noun). But would wouldn't want to overfine your distinctions if you wanted the reader to understand that these weren't fantasy characters.
I would probably call any non-fantasy dwarfs something to indicate their non-fantasy genisis (i.e. "heavyworlder" to indicate that these dwarfs were the result of life in a high gravity environment, or "rad-stunter" to indicate that it was exposure to radiation that made them short). The same would be true for any elfin race, though short, sweet terms would be harder to devise, I think ("high-breds" to indicate selective breeding, or "eugenetives" to indicate artificially engineered types? I don't know).
posted
By the way, there are plenty of stories that use dwarfs in SF, and quite a few that basically use elfin species.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I find Elves and Dwarves comfortable in Fantasty. BUt I don't think they are neccesary, so if you write something that's fantasy without Dwarves I can live with that. My current WIP was started with just a Dwarf and we built the world around him. We are using some Sterotypes, like the beard. And sometimes you have to play the sterotypes. Actually Survivor, the difference between Dwarves and Dwarfs is continental. The V is British while the F is American. I think the same goes for Elfs. Tolkein was appalled when he saw the first american version of LOTR because they called his Elves Elfs.
Theres another thing, why are Dwarfs considered Fantasy? All the Dwarfs I've known were real. (Except for that one that always wore the green hat I'm not too sure he was real.)
posted
No, we use "elves", "elfs" is improper unless you mean multiple extremely low frequencies (as in "did you scan all the elfs they could be using for that transmission?").
Dwarves is common currency in fantasy, but that is Tolkien's contribution.
posted
Yeah, I think elfin or elfish are correct. Whereas, most fantasy writers use elves or elven.(which are also correct)
There are several sub-species or groups/bloodlines of both beings already established in fantasy and D&D. If you make new ones and call them something different, you still have to describe them in similar terms, so why not just use the original and save some explaining.
I think the real twist would come from placing them in a different environment than what is normally expected. Usually, Elves = woods, and Dwarves = caves. Change it up, and make elves = sailors, and dwarves = horsemen for example, or vice versa. Some of this has been done, but not to a great degree.
Take a look at any D&D manual and you will find a plethera of background material on the norms and sub-species. I like the sub-species, Korred and Drugar, for Dwarves; evil little creatures!
It is definately not necessary to use either race in your story. But if there is a need, DO IT! It can't be cliche if it is what is needed. I can write a modern day story without any social diversity, but that wouldn't be giving the reader a clear picture of what life is really like. If your world is very diverse, then add in as many races as you need to make it believeable. Maybe there aren't any humans at all in your world. Maybe it is inhabited only by Dwarves and Elves, or some other races. Or maybe Humans are the "new race" from the unholy union of elf and dwarf? Mix it up, but don't make it too complicated, that is the key (I think).
[This message has been edited by TruHero (edited August 08, 2004).]
posted
Tolkein's Elves were Sailors, When Legolas first saw the Ocean he almost had to be dragged from it. It would be interesting to see Dwarves as horsemen, since they are too small to mount them. As for Dwarves I like Aghar, but those will be usless unless your writing for WOTC. I also like the Drow-Elves. But Fantasy is due for another innovator, we need new Cliches to play with.
posted
Weiss and Hickman have dwarves on horses in the Sovereign Stone Trilogy. Their whole life revolves around being able to breed and ride horses. In fact if someone does something bad within their society, they become one of the un-horsed. They can never ride again, like being permanently grounded.
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