I'm new here, although I've been a frequent visitor to hatrack for quite some time now.

Right now, my husband and I are full-time students. He's just starting his undergrad degree (he got a late start), and I'm a graduate student. Problem is, we're broke! Been living off student loans and freelance work for a year. (I also substituted last year.) ANYWAY, I have been looking for a job for a while now and have been having no luck in this area.

I've always wanted to be a writer, but have a problem with motivation. I know I have the ability... it's just a matter of doing it and not making excuses, right? Anyway, I was thinking... while I'm having trouble finding a job, I could be channeling some of my unused energy into writing. I always thought I'd wait until we were established in life... maybe when we have a family and my husband is supporting us. THEN I'd write.

Seems silly to wait now, though. I'm wasting some good time here. Don't ya think?

Am I dreaming to think I could make a living out of this eventually? (At least 1/2 a living...) I don't have much interest in short stories. I want to do novels, even though the length is intimidating.

I know I could be good at it if I could just turn off the "Style/Grammar" editor in my head long enough to get the story down.

(For the curious, I'm an English teacher, but I took some time off to get my masters. Besides, I hate teaching most of the time. College teaching is slightly better.)

I also struggle mostly with just pounding it out, instead of endlessly perfecting the grammar of a lone paragraph. I didn't go to college, but I have written and taught some high school level English curriculum (maybe I'll even sell some of it someday, what a concept.)

I am also newly unemployed, though in my case it was a small new person joining the family. I love motherhood. And I have also lately realized that time's a wastin', so although my daughter is just 3 months old I have already cranked out a couple stories and started my first novel in earnest. Whew! I've been an OSC fan since middle school, and have been to Hatrack for years, though I just joined the forum a couple weeks ago.

I am not meaning to steal your spotlight here, please forgive me, I just loved noticing our similarities.

If you want to write, you'll write. It might sound like flippant advice, but I'm serious. Even if its just in your head so far, I don't believe that its possible not to make up, rewrite and generally fiddle with stories if you have any sort of inclination.

It's not dreaming to think you could make a living on it (though I wouldn't rely on that alone). To be a writer, you have to write first and foremost, then you have to try to get it published. None of it is easy, but it is enjoyable (often in a twisted way, however).

Having time on your hands means you have a wonderful opportunity. Don't put pressure on yourself, but try to sit down at a regular time and place (if possible) each day, and try to get something down. It doesn't matter what initally. Just get started and see what comes out.

I did a lot of work when on maternity leave too, autumnmuse. I've made good use of parental leave from work in the last year. Now number 2 is on the way, so things should get very interesting around our house. Writing has to slot into the routine somewhere, but so long as I still manage a little each day, I feel I'm getting somewhere.

Siena, I'm an English grad (among other things) and the editor in my head is always piping up. She's always useful, but you'll have to teach her some patience (then you can tell me how )

Best of luck and I look forward to reading some of your work in the future.

The typical advice is - don't quit your day job! Us mommie-types who went on leave (I from teaching, which I love, because I had twins), then continued to stay home, have another excuse (babies!) and need to take advantage of nap and bed-times to write.

If you are a grad student, and doing other stuff to live on, the fiction writing you do will either be in stolen moments, or in the time you make - like getting up an hour earlier every day (I can't do it, but I'm a night owl - I stay up the extra hour or three).

You mentioned you'd been freelancing. Does this mean writing non-fiction for magazines? That may be something to build up first, so you have a steady income. Then you won't have to worry about other work (substituting wages are practically the same as babysitting wages, only with more work involved). There are always jobs out there, they just tend to be the lower-paid ones in retail and food-service that college grads might think they are above - but if you need the money, and a job that doesn't require you take work home (like teaching!), you could think about them. Maybe get a job in a library, or at a bookstore, with access to books you might need/want. Work where you can get a discount on the stuff you want/need most!

If you really want to write, you'll write. If you are not motivated (for whatever reasons), you won't. There will always be an excuse to keep you from it. If you just think about it - that you'd be good at it - you'll never get published, let alone send anything out. But you will talk to others about it!

Don't think about it too much. Don't worry if you edit in your head. Just do it. Start small - do you have a writing journal? I got the simple, college-ruled 70 page notebooks to use (they are in 10-packs now because of back-to-school sales). Cheap. Then try to do one writing-prompt a day, which can help with your motivation. You can find some at:

http://writersdigest.com/writingprompts.asp

Don't get something fancy - you'll feel obligated to write wonderful things in a blue velvet, silver-guilded journal. You should be able to write jems or junk in your journal/notebook. Get a smooth pen that is a joy to write with (not purple ballpoint - it bleeds and fades over time). Commit to writing one prompt a day - get in the habit of writing something every day. Don't worry about the story, or some novel you think you might do, maybe, if all these "conditions" were satisfied. Life will never be perfect, so if you wait to write, you won't do it.

As I've read and been told, you can't really go into this thinking about making a living. You go into it for the love of what you are doing, and if you are lucky you are able to sell your stories too.

Now, in reality, this is what I did. About a year after I had my twins, my dad showed me some unpublished work of my grandmother and two of his sisters, who were all published writers. Their work must have hit something in me - I love to read, but have hated writing - but what I hated writing was research papers (loved the research, loved talking about the subjects, hated writing the actual papers, though I am good at it).

So I decided to explore fiction writing (sf/f genre, my preferred reading area), to see if I liked it, and then as a possible way to make some money (because, in reality, we all wonder some time if we can make a living at it, even if we are not supposed to!). Since then, I've subscribed to Writer's Digest and The Writer (both of which I love to read, unlike my ed mags), I've borrowed and bought books on writing (both in general, and on sf/f), I've taken 5, and am starting my 6th, creative writing class on-line, and tried to organize myself.

But most importantly, during the whole time I've been doing this, I went ahead and started writing. I did the notebook/prompt thing, and didn't worry about anything. I just knew I had to learn by trial and error. I wrote in bed at night when everyone else had gone to sleep, I jotted notes that came to me in the shower (I need some tub crayons!), I made/stole time to write, I let the housework get behind, I did/do writing prompts, and some that I liked became short stories. I have sent stuff out, and received a rejection.

I'm not counting on making a living as a writer, but I'm having fun doing it. If we need me to go back to teaching at some point (like when the kids are in school) I will. I'm lucky that my husband can support us at the moment, so I can make writing time. If I was teaching now, I doubt I'd manage much at all.

I too have the internal editor. At first I just didn't worry about it - I wrote less, but at least what I wrote was ok. It takes time to develop the habit to just write without worrying about it. In the last couple of months I was bound and determined to get through a story, so I did. Does the 32 pages I wrote need major revisions/fleshing out/overhauling? Oh YES! But I did it - and you can too. But it's a habit of mind and fingers, and if you don't just dump the excuses and do something, you won't.

So to answer your question - are you silly for waiting? Yes! Can you make a living at it? Maybe, but you won't know until you try. Get a job to help support you and your husband, and make some of your non-work time into your writing time. Guard it. Preserve it. Do it. Later, when you are making money, you can quit the day job. You know, when your name is up there with Stephen King and Nora Roberts and Anne McCaffrey, and OSC (though I believe they all have other stuff they do too)...!

And I wish you the best of luck. I never thought I'd want to do this. I now have 13+ stories in various stages from research to completion, and one might actually become a b**k. I can't really say it yet - I too am intimidated by the length. But as someone else told me - just write the story. It will be whatever length it needs to be to complete it - be that 1k words, or 100k words!

Sorry for the long post - hope you are inspired!

Lee

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If you want to write, you'll write. It might sound like flippant advice, but I'm serious. Even if its just in your head so far, I don't believe that its possible not to make up, rewrite and generally fiddle with stories if you have any sort of inclination.

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RFLong,
Well, I do want to write and I haven't been. But I think there's a perfectly good explanation for that. For years (my entire school experience, really) I've been in situations where I've had to write some sort of assignment for school. Most everything I've ever written has been for a grade. I honestly think that attaches a stigma to writing (at least for me) that I have to shake. I need to do it because I love it and write what I love instead of boring assignments. I think it's just a matter of changing that mindset. I already love to make-up stories and chart them out. (I have a 4'X4' piece of whiteboard behind me with my latest story idea scribbled all over it.)

I've taught many of my students to write, and I think I did a good job. More essay writing than creative, though. I taught them to just write as it comes and worry about editing later. Now I need to take my own advice.

punahougirl84,
Well, my husband is really the one who's been freelancing. He does computer work... anything and everything on a computer... you need it done, he can do it. /end commercial. ;)
I've been looking into doing freelance writing online. It's something I'm at least a little interested in. Also, a career in journalism as an editor or even a columnist doesn't seem as distasteful as it once did. I think I'd like that. And I have no problem with starting at the bottom, it's just hard to find a job like that... and to know exactly what to look for and where. I'm so tired of job sites! :) I think I just need to show up at our local newspaper office. :)

I have had a writing journal before--it has a lot of writing in it. That's where I got my idea yesterday that I reworked into a more workable story. It began as a fantasy interpretation of my life, including several ex boyfriends and my then current one. He of course had a hero role. :) It really was a fairly good idea... but not good enough. Besides, I'm married to someone else now! Woulda been weird. Although my hubby could certainly fill a hero role. *le sigh* ;) Yesterday I kept the fantasy concept I had come up with, the main character, and reworked the rest. It's much, much better now. Interesting...

And I can actually relate to the sentiment that there are some jobs I'm "above." Although it's not that I think I'm above them... it's that I'm frustrated that I spent all that time going to college and getting a degree and I can't FIND anything better. Ah well. I have an older friend who has a good job at wal-mart. I think she's a manager or something. I'll ask her if she can find me something, hopefully non-cashier.

And your long post was great! No sorries! :)

Cowboy Poet,
Yeah, I read one of Card's articles about how you could crank out a novel in about the time it takes to write several short stories, so why not go for the novel? It'll take me a little while to work my story well enough to be ready to start writing (I want to chart it out beginning to end with strong characters), but when I do, it'll be a novel. In fact, I think the world(s) I'm creating and the characters are strong enough for more than one. It's pretty exciting! :)

Nope, I haven't had anything published. Except for little stories in the high school papers. :) I was even an editor then.

And I have both of OSC's how-to books. The Character and Sci-fi/Fantasy ones.. There isn't more, is there???

Phanto,
Therein lies the tragedy.

Everybody,
Wow! Thanks for all of the wonderful replies! :) I feel inspired!! Must write!! Well.. after I heat up some of that leftover ziti I made yesterday. Tummy, THEN Write. Gotta have priorities. :)

Has been wonderful becoming acquainted with you all. *slight bow* :)

Why oh why you make me turn off smileys to post? Smileys are my life!! SEE?

Ah well.

That applies to achieveing any dream, not just writing.

1. You write because you cannot not write. Selling what you write is part luck, to be sure, but mostly its the result of (A) talent, (B)discipline, and (C) perserverance. What is luck is making a living by it, because who knows who the next best-seller will be. Did anyone in 1974 think that Stephen King would be a best-selling novelist writing horror novels?

2. Unless you're unusually talented, you have to face the grim reality that you'll have to pass through an apprenticeship stage. You must write and write and write, and read and read and read, and study and study and study, and then, sometime down the line, you'll be writing good stories. How long this takes depends partly on your talent (for the less talented, the more work) and partly on your discipline (you can't get by on talent alone). Consider the techniques you'll have to master to write a good story: character, plot, dialogue, point of view, theme, description, setting, pacing, and, if you writer SF/F, exposition. It takes time to learn this stuff. How long? I don't know. But if you were to write 1000 words a day (4 pages)--1000 words of a story, 1000 words in a journal, or 1000 words of writing exercises--you'd write about 350,000 words a year (1400 pages)--which is about 3.5 100,000-word novels a year. Now, Stephen King wrote 6 novles before he sold Carrie. I don't know if that's average, but supposing it is, you're looking at about 2 years of work before you'll write anything good enough to sell. And that's if you write 1000 words a day, 350 days a year. You'll want to take some time off, I think, so you're really looking at about 3 years of being an apprentice writer.

So if you're going to write, write because you want to, write because you have to, but don't write for the money, because it probably won't come for several years . . . if it ever comes at all.

One thing that hasn't been said, (though it might have, because I have to admit I scanned much of what the others said) is that writing short stories seems to be the way to build a name for yourself because it is so much easier to get a short story published than it is to get a novel published. The reason is, most novelists just don't have the time to be cranking out short stories. They have novels to work on. So publishers of shorts (magazines, etc.) are constantly looking for new talent to fill their pages with. There are a FEW exceptions to that rule. Some of the biggies are particularly keen on getting well-known authors to fill their fiction pages (OMNI is an example, though this tendency is not the rule there).

Like Balthasar said, we start out as apprentices, so when I began my apprenticeship and began learning the market, I found that I'd better work on honing my short story writing skills or I wouldn't have much of interest to put in my query letters when my book is ready to publish.

I'm agreeing with Balthasar. (Huh. Don't do that much... ) Having grown up as the child of a writer, I can definitely say that even after publication nothing gets easier. Heck, later books can be harder. Less time, demanding schedule, and lord love you if you go into the death spiral of sales and have to start over. The usual rule of thumb is the more in sales from backcatalogue than from new book and a year's money in the bank point. New writers aren't going to get that. I'll mention a reason why below, but in a nutshell-- time.

If you're going to write, you're going to write, and nothing's going to stop you. And you should write. It's just giving up the day job that's highly problematic. Personally, I prefer separating submitting from writing because writing for money turns it into an extrinsic motivation for writing, which decreases total motivation and can make it feel like a chore.

But even if I were writing for money: let's say I got a year to build inventory, and I now send out everything I've written in that time and decide I'm now a writer. Response times are slow. My short stories probably won't come back for a while-- F&SF is fast to reject, but even they take a while to accept. And that's assuming a market accepts you. It would probably take at least two months-- at the absolute shortest, and it'd probably be more like six, or even years if the market paid on publication-- to get a check. Assuming you sold that first story to a major market-- and even they won't pay enough for the rent. Which has odds comensurate with a dromedary winning the Kentucky Derby.

On the novel front, things are even more discouraging time-wise, and while better on the money (and arguably acceptance rate), not enough to live on. The first novel needs to go to an agent. Let's say you have a novel completely ready to go after the one year inventory period-- fast for a first novel, but I've done it, so it's not unreasonable. I have a first novel complete and edited, which frankly, I don't think is publishable. But let's say I need the money, so I send it out. It takes an agent a couple of months to read, accept, send the contract (assuming this even happens, which it probably won't-- but for the sake of argument). The agent starts sending it out to publishing houses, without edits because they'd take time, and calloo, callay, it's accepted (because we're arguing best-case scenario). You then get the advance: a princely sum of... $3000. $5000. Maybe $10000, if you're obscenely lucky. Maybe even more if you're out of genre... but it's probably going to be at or below the average $5000, and remember, this is the advance. You may get half on publication, but let's say you get this up front. But wait! Your agent takes a cut. (You're selling without an agent? Prepare to wait. It can be done, but the [link="http://mizkit.com/misc/slush02.jpg"]Tor Slush Pile[/link] is high indeed, and they're one of the few to accept unagented subs these days.) And you pay taxes. So you're getting significantly under $5000 for a year's work.

But you have royalties! you say. They may pay more on acceptance, or on publication! Well, probably not. Until you start selling on the midlist-- numbers new authors probably don't generate-- your royalty checks will probably be enough to fund a nice dinner out. If you earn out the advance and get royalties. And remember-- the wheels of publishing grind slowly. It may take a couple years for your book to come out, and another six months from that before royalties come. And even then, you've got the agent's cut, and reserves against returns, and... I'm gettting depressed. And were you writing another novel in that meantime? Hope so! You may want to explore media tie-ins, too. And you'll want to stick to the career-building pace of at least one original book every nine months... plus tie-ins, or ghostwriting, or another genre under another name, or something else to pay the bills. And these books you write have to sell, remember.

I'm not saying this to be discouraging, I'm saying this to be helpful. By all means, write, and submit-- I do both, with a (usually more than) full-time job that involves a great deal of time on the road. Paradoxically, I feel like the job gives me the freedom to really develop as a writer. My take it with a grain of salt advice: stick with a day job. Giving it up before you're ready (year of income ready) won't help you money-wise, and it can definitely harm your writing.

I don't have a job.

....

So, I suppose that while I'm looking I could be writing, too. I've been reading instead, though. Reread Speaker for the Dead yesterday and Xenocide today. I actually think it's helpful.

Thanks for all the tips. I'll go the route of getting myself that day job and writing in my spare time--probably MAKING that spare time. It's important enough to me to do, whether I get paid or not.

I also reread the "Speaker" trilogy recently, Siena, for the first time since I initially read it in middle school. Back then I was disappointed, thought it was nowhere near as cool as Ender's Game. This time, though, I absolutely loved it. I now think it is one of OSC's best works.

If you're planning out the story on a whiteboard - you're writing. As far as I'm concerned, if you're thinking about it you're writing.

Phanto

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Disagree. I think it's entirely possible to spend an entire life with great stories and ideas in your head, but never do anything about it.

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You're still making up the stories, but agreed, not to do anything with them is a tragedy. Writing - making up stories. Writer - writing down the stories and inflicting... sorry, make that, presenting them to the rest of the world.

Seriously, Siena, take advantage of the time you have. When I did my English degree, it almost put me off "literature" for life, but luckily I kept on writing. This is the fun part. Everytime I read a story, or see a film, I sit there going "yeah, but if they'd done this, this and this instead..."

Fiction writing is completely different from assignment writing. You can definitely enjoy it. Actually, you've alread answered that one:

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I need to do it because I love it and write what I love instead of boring assignments.

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