posted
This topic is a growth off of Christine's MICE topic. I want to rant about MICE. I am pretty sick of hearing about it. There, that felt good.
Here's my problem. It's not that MICE is a bad system, per se. (Anyone who doesn't know what MICE is, OSC talked about it on one of his how-to-write books. If more explanation is needed, just ask). It's a fine system, but it's not all-encompassing. I don't think OSC meant it to be all encompassing, either, but I could be wrong; I've never asked him.
There are plenty of good stories that don't fall within the MICE system, though. I mean, I suppose every story worth it's salt is either about Milieu, Ideas, Characters, or Events, but beyond that, it's too restrictive. The system tells you where a story is supposed to begin (Christine's problem in her post), which questions you have to ask and which ones you have to answer, when you have to end your story. A story can be great without following the MICE pattern.
It's a sometimes useful system, not a rule of law for good writing. Many seem to accept it as the latter instead of the former, though.
posted
You're right in that if it is used as a 'formula', then the writing becomes 'formulaic', and formulaic writing at its best gives genre hacks a bad name. At its worst, well we've all read formulaic writing at its worst, I'm sure. If you're lucky you'll just get off with a case of the giggles.
I like to use MICE as a screening tool. I start writing and work for a while, understanding that in this phase of my writing 'career' that I am probably going to throw out much of my start. Then I look at the writing from the MICE point of view. Often it leads to a change in perspective for me. "Oh. So that's what I was writing about!" And then I move on.
posted
I think the realy problem with the MICE system is that some stories are such a mixture of two (or more), there isn't a clear dividing line. Character/Event and Event/Mileu seem to be common combinations, where a story could be either since it's both.
The MICE strenght mostly lies as a guide that if you aren't sure of your starting point, it can be a guide to finding a scene that sets up the most important aspect of the story. As a classification for literature, not really so useful because of the combination effect.
I rather like Nancy Kress's Throughline concept better, where you set up the Implict Promise a the begining, and the main thread of your novel delivers on that promise. Another way to put that: By the ending, you have answered the major questions your raised in the begining and middle. MICE is a version of that -- it just catagorized the types of promises, where Kress is more general.
posted
If anyone is interested in a great story that doesn't use the MICE system, but still captured me utterly, try John Crowley's Little Big.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:I think the realy problem with the MICE system is that some stories are such a mixture of two (or more), there isn't a clear dividing line.
You can say that again. I'm not sure which of the 4 my NaNo novel fits best into at all.
Milieu: the story is about a world in which most of the population have little technology, but there is a small group with advanced technology trying to manipulate them in certain directions
Idea: the story is about the ethics of manipulating the religious beliefs of primitive people.
Character: the story is about one man who learns that his little backwater country isn't the most important place in the world, and that he must grow to face larger problems that face the population of half a continent.
Event: the story is about the abduction and enslavement of a priestess of one of the world's major religions by the command of the leader of the other, and the repercussions of this.
All 4 of them work. I think trying to decide between them is useless.
posted
If you don't know which of the four MICE components is your main one, it's time to back off a bit and take care of the fundamentals.
David Gerrold defines a story as "a person with a problem." (Obviously, there may be many people with different problems in a novel, but your main storyline should be a person with a problem.)
Jules, it looks to me like you're trying to find ways to fit your story into each of the four MICE categories. While it's good that you will have elements from each, I think you need to decide what your story is at the fundamental level, and then see which category it matches most closely.
It looks like you have your person chosen: the man from a little backwater country. But his problem is not that he learns his country isn't important, and his problem isn't that he must grow to face larger problems. His problem is those larger problems -- the abduction of the priestess, and maybe the manipulations of the advanced tech people.
So (if I've guessed corectly) your story is about Backwater Bob going to rescue the kidnapped priestess of his religion.
Which of the MICE categories does that best fit? I'd say it's pretty clearly an event story.
Now, if your story is not really about Backwater Bob and rescuing the priestess, then you have a different person with a different problem.
Fred has been exiled from his country for his failure as a temple guard. His problem is that now he must wander the different countries of the continent to find a new home. (Probably a milieu story.)
Amy is a member of a high-tech group charged with keeping the low-tech civilization from destroying itself through war. Her problem is that the religious manipulation they've been using for generations feels unethical to her. (Probably an idea story.)
Kyle is a coward who has been drafted to fight in the War of the Abduction. His problem is to decide whether to risk death or desert his friends. (Probably a character story.)
posted
I use the MICE elements as a tool to help sharpen aspects of a story and to make it more complete. Focusing on it too much can take away from concepts that are actually more basic to good writing and should never be forgotten. For example, I thought my WIP is a mileu story, but it isn't. There are aspects of a mileu story, but the focus of my story isn't on how the mileu changes the character. I had confused mileu with something more basic: setting. And in fantasy, which is what I write, setting is just as important a character as the characters themselves.
MICE are not commandments. They are not the four MICE of the apocalypse. They are but one of many tools a writer may consiously employ. I have found them extremely useful.
Gavin, I am with you on Crowley. I'm currently rereading Little, Big. Crowley's Aegypt was one of those books, that, like LOTR, actually changed my life by helping me see things in a new way. Alas, it is no longer in print.
[This message has been edited by Magic Beans (edited October 31, 2004).]
posted
To be ignant and appear stupid I would just like to say....yeah.
I'm sick of MICE. Sick of it. I don't like treating it like holy writ, which is what a lot of people do. It's useful, from time to time, but more as a curiosity than as anything else. I'm going to stop there because if I don't this could turn into a huge rant in which I make a massive fool of myself by saying really stupid things.
posted
But maybe you have some things to say that are valuable. So, why not risk making a fool of yourself, and just say them?
Posts: 2710 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I hate trying to put words into others' mouths, but to me what EJS is saying is that the MICE system can be used to focus on the essentials of your story. Without clear sight of your intentions the plot can get away from you. One problem beginning writers often have, especially with larger works, is finishing.
I'm sure there are many ways to write successful books. And MICE is not intended to be a formula, merely a guide through the nightmarish wilderness that all inexperienced writers go through. Once you have travelled through, well then you can find your own path to enlightenment.
posted
Yanos, whether that was what Eric intended or not, what you said was insightful and valuable. Thank you for saying it.
I think OSC would be the last person to expect writers to enslave themselves to the MICE concepts. They really are just guidelines to helping you understand what you may be doing in a story.
They are most definitely not the One Write Way because there is no such thing. Each writer must find what works for the story, and it may be different from one story to the next, even for the same writer.
quote:I hate trying to put words into others' mouths, but to me what EJS is saying is that the MICE system can be used to focus on the essentials of your story. Without clear sight of your intentions the plot can get away from you. One problem beginning writers often have, especially with larger works, is finishing.
That's good advice, though it's not quite what I was saying.
The point I was trying to make was that if you're not sure where in the MICE categorization your story fits (particularly if it seems to fit all four), you probably need to clarify what your main storyline is. One way of doing that is boiling it down to "a person with a problem." I'm sure there are other ways.
posted
Amen! to everything said about using MICE as a must. I had actually never heard of it until I came to Hatrack and part of the reason is that I have an aversion to ANY "how-to-write formula" (I think what turned me off was having to learn "The Writing Process" back in grade school).
This reminded me of a thread from a while back when we discussed MICE. The consensus seemed to be that the best stories do fit into more than one category or, at the very least, contain strong elements from multiple categories.
quote:The consensus seemed to be that the best stories do fit into more than one category or, at the very least, contain strong elements from multiple categories.
You have hit upon it exactly. MICE are not tools for writing at all. They are tools for understanding a story.
BTW, about John Crowley's Little, Big: Gavin had suggested it didn't fit with the whole MICE thing, but I would suggest that it is a classic mileu story: Smoky Barnable leaves his normal world for the fanstastic mileu of Edgewood. Life in Edgewood transforms him. There is also a strong idea component to the story, as it seems there is the mystery of the existence of the fairy folk to ponder. The event element is met by the fact that the fairy is in danger from progress. The character element is also most wonderfully fulfilled in Smoky, who, at the beginning of the story, is dissatisfied with his anonymity. Meeting Daily Alice Drinkwater changes this. The story really begins when Smoky is traveling to Edgewood to marry her and become a character rather than remain anonymous forever.
Did Crowley use the MICE concepts to write his story? No. We use the MICE concepts as tools to study the craft of the story's construction. As writers ourselves, this is valuable to us. They are tools of understanding that lend themselves particularly well to sf/f stories.
If we wanted to be rid of MICE, perhaps we should bring in some CATS: Character, Action, Theme, and Symbolism!
[This message has been edited by Magic Beans (edited November 01, 2004).]
posted
> You have hit upon it exactly. MICE are not > tools for writing at all. They are tools > for understanding a story.
No.
Well, yes, but no.
You can use MICE as a way of analyzing a story, but that's not what OSC is using it for in his books on writing.
MICE is a tool for deciding where and how you should begin the story. And because where and how you begin contains an implicit promise about the type of story you are telling, it helps you know where and how the story should end in order to satisfy the reader.
That is the whole purpose of the MICE analysis -- figuring out the proper beginning and ending points for your story so that the reader will be satisfied.
If you start your story with Donny Detective discovering a body in a locked room, you are promising a certain type of story. If the story ends with Donny deciding to forget about solving the mystery, since he only became a detecive because he was pressured by his father's expectations and he really needs to pursue his dream of being a sculptor, you're going to have some very annoyed readers. You have a beginning that promises "idea story" with a "character story" ending.
So, while you may use the MICE concept for other purposes, such as analyzing books that have been already written, it is intended as a tool for writers in choosing their beginning and end points.
posted
That makes it sound like more of a revising tool than a writing a tool.
Looking at what you have written and deciding if it satisfying from a readers perspective. If it isn't then MICE might be A way of determining where the problem lies.
I guess, imo, unless you already have an idea of what your story is about or where you want it to end up, knowing the MICE quotient won't necessarily help.
posted
I think some people put too much emphasis on rewrites. If you keep all of it in your mind when you're writing, then you shouldn't have to worry about any such major revisions.
Posts: 1621 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Well, for some writers it's good to know where they should begin their story before they start to write it.
Posts: 1517 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I guess that is why there is NO right or wrong way to write. Everybody has a method that works for them, but it is seldom exactly the same for any two people. There are always principles that will help make you a stronger writer, but those principles are different for everyone.
If MICE, or any other process, works for you, then use it. I guess, just be careful that it doesn't take away from your own style or methods.
posted
well, me, i think it's pretty stupid to try to FORCE your story into being something while you are still writing it... all of the writing tools out there are only meant to help you, they are a possibility, if you find your own system, great, maybe you might share it. if you find one someone else has already shared that you like, use it, however, they are all only guidelines, i feel the story should have the most control, you just help steer it.
i tend to write the story as it comes, then in my revision stages i use a couple of the writing tools to make sure that my story doesn't lack anything that people have come to expect...
being a completionist by nature, once i get decided on starting something, i have no problem finishing it, in fact it nags me that i don't until i do... anyways, that was just my coupla pennies
quote:MICE is a tool for deciding where and how you should begin the story.
Eric, you are correct. Rather than look stuff up in the book I wrote off the top of my head. Ah well. Mind like a steel trap: everything gets horribly mangled.
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