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Author Topic: Moons and weather
autumnmuse
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In my novel, I need to have a large storm. This needs to be separate from normal seasonal storms. My planet has very mild weather as a rule, but I need an occasional hurricane or somesuch. The storm needs to be over land, though, and a tornado won't work. It could include lightning, though I am thinking more along the lines of a sudden monsoon.

Is it possible if I have, say, two small moons orbiting the planet that individually don't affect tides too strongly, but when their orbits get close to each other every few years they cause such a storm?

I don't want to use this idea unless it is scientifically feasible. Any thoughts?


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Jules
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I can't see any mechanism by which that could work, although of course that doesn't mean there aren't any.

It strikes me that what you need is some kind of system where energy is built up and then suddenly released; for example, if ocean currents gradually heat up some region until an ice barrier melts, releasing a load of cold water, reversing the currents for a few weeks and resetting the system. This kind of thing could be pretty regular, I would guess, and doesn't sound unlikely to my inexpert knowledge. Anyone else got any comments?


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J
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If your planet has seasons, then its axis is on a tilt. The water on one side of the planet will be warmer than the water on the other, with the warmer side generally oriented towards the sun wrt the tilt.

If both of the moons are briefly on the same side of the planet (even for one night), then they could alter the course of an oceanic current enough for it to change temperature by a few tenths of a degree. When it returns to its original course, the temperature difference will make wind over the water---enough wind, you've got a storm.


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Magic Beans
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Our moon doesn't cause storms, it affects life in more subtil but very important ways. If you haven't done any research online that explains how storms form and go through their life cycle, well, that would be where I would start.
J makes a good observation, but those conditions lend themselves towards seasonal storms, which you said it wasn't.

[This message has been edited by Magic Beans (edited November 05, 2004).]


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Whitney
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This may sound too simplistic but is this a planet with magic? Could it be that an unexpected storm like this could a result of someone manipulating the weather magically? A god who's upset about something? Someone who's magic has unbalanced nature? There's no scientific explanation needed about these.
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Robyn_Hood
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What if the trigger was something completely unrelated to weather.

Something like a volcanic eruption or meteor strike? I seem to recall something about weather patterns being disrupted after Mt. St. Helens erupted back in the '80s. It had something to do with the debris in the air affecting how the sun's energy was distributed on Earth. (I probably have that really wrong, but it might be something to check out).


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autumnmuse
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No, there's no magic on the planet; strict sci-fi. The issue in a bit more depth is as follows:

On my planet there is a race of sentient Trees, which are very tall for their width. They have enormous leaves but these leaves stem directly off the central trunk, with no branches. Normally they handle wind and rain relatively well. Partly that is because they grow in sheltered valleys where the wind is not as strong.

But it is important to the plot that every few years (not sooner) a very large storm comes whose winds are too strong for the leaves to handle as they are. So the tree shuts its leaves, a bit like an umbrella closing upside down; the leaves bend upward and overlap each other until they are relatively flush against the trunk, which can then bend as needed to avoid breaking.

I'm just trying to think what could cause that to happen. I suppose if it had to happen every year in order to be plausible I could work with it, but it would lessen the impact a bit since it would be commonplace.

The volcano idea is a maybe, but that might make the storms a bit too rare, and long lasting. I'm thinking in the three-day range, give or take a bit.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Hurricanes happen when the ocean is particularly warm. Moisture rises and when it hits colder air aloft, it condenses and puts out a lot of energy. The spin comes from the Coriolis effect due to the earth's spin.

What if you had a volcanic eruption on the sea floor that heated the ocean water enough to cause a storm to form? You couldn't blame that on the moons, though.

By the way, tornados have lightning too sometimes. On August 11, 1999 (the same day as the total eclipse in Europe, though I don't think they were connected), a couple of thunderstorms (with lightning) collided over Salt Lake City and created a tornado that whipped through downtown with no warning. It ripped out a lot of trees, tore off a bunch of roofs, shattered a lot of windows, broke a construction crane, and killed one man.


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Robyn_Hood
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If I'm right about the effects of the atmospheric debris, perhaps a periodic meteor storm would do.

For example a comet travels through the system making a circuit every three years. Debris from its tail bombards sections of the planet causing intense dust storms that block the sun causing air temperatures to change abrutly. This spawns a wind storm with hurricane force winds.

I'm not 100% on the science of that though.


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J
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If you want the storms to be infrequent but regular and predictable, then go with the moons. Perhaps you could contrue their orbits such that they are only on the same side of the planet once every few years for a day. The storms could easily last three days afterwards as nature sought to re-equilibrate.

If you want the storms to be infrequent and random, the undersea volcano suggestion is a pretty good one. An overactive tectonic boundary that happens to lie a few hundred miles upwind of the nearest coast could explain why these storms occur often enough for the trees to have developed an evolutionary response.


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Magic Beans
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quote:
But it is important to the plot that every few years (not sooner) a very large storm comes whose winds are too strong for the leaves to handle as they are. So the tree shuts its leaves, a bit like an umbrella closing upside down; the leaves bend upward and overlap each other until they are relatively flush against the trunk, which can then bend as needed to avoid breaking.

I'm just trying to think what could cause that to happen. I suppose if it had to happen every year in order to be plausible I could work with it, but it would lessen the impact a bit since it would be commonplace.


This behavior from the sentient trees seems to me something that would be evolutionarily derived, and that means the triggering event has to happen with enough frequency and over a long enough time frame to lead to it. That points to regularity.

I'm afraid I don't agree with the idea that if it were regular or commonplace, as you say, that that would lessen its impact any. Hurricane and monsoon seasons are quite regular, and that doesn't lessen their impact a whit. You are bound to lose some trees with each season of storms. Thus evolution encourages the propagation of trees that can withstand storms.

Of course, you could also flip it around and have your trees take advantage of storms, as nature is wont to do, and turn a potential enemy into an ally by dropping storm-blown seeds, which then settle in valleys when the winds weaken and drop them.

[This message has been edited by Magic Beans (edited November 05, 2004).]


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wetwilly
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How would the gravitational pull of the moons cause storms? The tidal pull of the moon pulls matter towards it, but as far as I know, it doesn't cause storms. Even if it did effect weather like that (which it may; I don't think it does, but I'm not an expert on the subject), the moons would have be REALLY HUGE and/or VERY close to the Earth for them to have that severe of an effect.
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autumnmuse
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I was originally thinking the climate for these trees was more in the temperate zone, but after all the comments I think the best way to achieve what I need is to have more of an equatorial jungle type climate, and have monsoons. I guess once a year would work alright; the main thing is there is a character who has never experienced the storm before that finds himself on the Tree when one hits. I think that will have enough impact to make it work. A wet, hot climate actually is more compatable with the type of tree I'm creating anyway; I don't think they'd do well in a climate which had freezing temperatures.

So thanks for all your responses, they helped me figure out what I needed!


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Robyn_Hood
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I found this site earlier today, but wasn't sure if you would be able to use it. Since you're deciding to go with monsoons, or a simillar phenomenon, you might find the info useful.

http://www.extremescience.com/weatherport.htm

(I found it by Googling "Extreme weather")


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Survivor
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Look up El Nino.
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djvdakota
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I'm responding not having read all the other posts, so I hope I'm not offering redundant information, or sounding like a total idiot. But I DID teach weather to my daughter's fourth grade class and REALLY got into it.

So you need a nonseasonal, but fairly regularly occurring storm to wreak some pretty good havoc, you have two moons which, combined, could have an abnormally large tidal effect.

Try this on for size--hurricanes form strictly over water, since land does not have enough moisture or heat energy to feed one. Suppose your double moon tide swells into an area of your planet that is just barely above sea level--something like Holland without the dikes. It would have to be somewhere equatorial in order to provide the amount of heat energy required. Now this tidal effect is generally nothing to worry about, but every once in a while the tidal effect coincides with the storm season and a hurricane comes farther inland (over the warm tidal sea) than is usually possible. This effect is fairly predictable (as predictable as hurricane occurence and the occurence of the tidal effect can be), but not seasonal.

Might it do?


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Doc Brown
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Ignoring the apparent conclusion of this thread, here's an idea that might make the moons work:

You devise a complex tidal system, as described above, with at least two moons affecting the tides. Usually the moons pulls against each other, which makes your sea level pretty stable. A really high tide comes when the moons align and pull together. This is a rare but regular and predictable occurance, perhaps once every eight months Earth time.

On one side of the planet you have a coastal desert that is just inches above sea level. This desert builds up a huge amount of heat energy every day. Normally it dissipate the energy via radiation every night.

But when the extra high tide happens to hit the desert during the hottest part of the day (perhaps 1/3 of all high tides) the desert floods. When inch-deep water covers thousands of square miles of burning desert you get a lot of evaporation. Sea level drops a bit, and the atmospheric water content surges. Equilibrum will be restored when it cools and condenses somewhere, releasing a lot of energy and rainwater.

Thus, you have a big storm that comes like clockwork. In this model it would be about once every 24 months Earth time, but you could modify the numbers within a wide range and it would still be believable.


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hoptoad
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Why can't these storm be seasonal? Just not every season. And shouldn't the leaves fold down instead of up?

Survivor said look into El Niño. I agree.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 09, 2004).]


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rickfisher
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There's a really simple solution to all this. Hurricanes occur multiple times every year. But how many of them hit New Orleans? Your setting could easily be someplace that gets hit by a hurricane every 3-4 years, on average. No strange or exotic tides or other weather phenomenon are necessary.
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autumnmuse
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Maybe I'll use the hurricanes then after all. I think the coast is only about a three-four day walk from the Tree for a person, so that could work. I really want something that is mainly strong winds and rain, as opposed to a lot of lightning or cyclones. It has to be plausible for the Trees to survive, after all.

And I think I'll still have two small moons orbiting the planet, but I won't blame the weather on them

Survivor, as to why the leaves bend upward instead of down, look at quite a lot of plants that grow here on Earth. The leaves are angled up a bit from their stems, which are angled up from the trunks.
In my novel, I have the leaves flat normally, but the stem which connects the leaf to the central trunk is slightly angled down. Thus, when the leaves respond to the weather, the natural response is for them to layer themselves in an upwards direction. Does that clear it up, or am I being confusing?


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Survivor
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Not at all, though I haven't commented on the structure of these leaves. My only suggestion was that you look up El Nino.

El Nino is caused by the bathythermic configuration of the deep Pacific. Basically, there is a deep but placid area where heat energy collects over a span of time (the actual El Nino cycle is 7-10 years, but with different large placid oceans it could be anything). When sufficient heat energy is collected, a local current (also called El Nino, or rather the cycle takes its name from the current, or perhaps both...never mind) is dramatically affected and causes a powerful alteration in the weather along the South American coast.

Anyway, look it up. Or don't, weather variations on that time scale are common throughout the world, you don't really need to invoke any explanations of such a phenomenon if you don't feel like it.


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JBShearer
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MICROBURST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A MICROBURST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Okay, I was trying to draw your attention in case you didn't see. Just Google it, but we have gotten several in Utah in my lifetime. Poof, appear out of nowhere, 140 mph winds, INSANE.
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JBShearer
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Or a downburst/macroburst (a big microburst?)
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/tg/wdnburst/wdnburs1.htm

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Triarius
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Go with hurricanes or monsoons. Doc Brown's suggestion about the desert is the only one that brings in the moons in a plausible way. (It needs to be a rocky desert, though.)

El Nino and similar phenomena are short term climactic change. Changes that effect global circulation systems (ocean or atmosphere) have time spans ranging in hundreds to thousands of years (See the November, 2004 issue of Scientific American for an excellent discussion.)

In fact, if the trees have evolved around this phenomenon, then it should be long term episodic—there are two seasons every year, the Season of Tranquility and the Season of Winds.

You are inspiring me to get busy on my Planet Building presentation for next MARCON!


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autumnmuse
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Sorry Survivor, it was Hoptoad who brought up the leaves. I should read more carefully before I post!!

I'm not sure how evolutionary this needs to be. I was thinking it might also be connected to the sentience of the Tree. In the story, the Tree is also able to open archways into its hollow trunk from the base of each leaf, to facilitate the movement of the humans getting up and down it. That was something born of courtesy to humans, who have only been on the planet a couple of hundred years. The theory I've been going on is that the Tree has the ability to manipulate its physical form somewhat, though not to the extent of say, uprooting and walking. For instance, Trees that may grow in other places in the jungle may not be as affected by the storms, and not need to move their leaves the same way. Similarly, Trees without human villages don't automatically grow arches into their trunks. Although, Trees who can use human and animal waste as fertilizer grow taller and stronger, so it is in their favor to have humans living in them and to shelter said humans.

(Part of the issue here is that I don't personally believe in evolution. I DO believe in natural selection, and adaptation to environment, just not transformation from one species to another. But that's a whole 'nother topic, and like abortion or politics, probably shouldn't even be brought up without causing major issues, so I'll not go there.)


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Triarius
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Autumnmuse, I have a plausible planet worked out if you want it.
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J
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If the trees can change themselves in fairly drastic ways whenever they want to, then your storm could be something completely random and unexplained.

I assumed the reason you wanted a recurring storm was to make the trees ability to close their leaves evolutionarily plausible. But if your trees are so adaptable, then they could plausibly close up the leaves for the first storm that they ever encouter.

Of course, if you need recurring storms for some other part of your plot, then this post doesn't help you at all.


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autumnmuse
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Triarius, I'd love to see it.

J- I do need this to not be the first storm that's ever happened, but I see what you mean. Thanks for the post. The need for recurring storms is partly for plausibility but also partly for plot, so you are right.


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