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Author Topic: time for omniscient POV?
Christine
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I'm reaing a book right now that keeps going back over sections of already-completed action from a different character's POV. It's beginning to get highly annoying. If it's so important that we know what two characters think in a given scene, then perhaps it is time to use an omniscient POV. What do you think?
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Lord Darkstorm
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I'm sure Balthasar will cringe reading this. But I have only read one author that I can remember that has done omniscient well...RA Salvator. I think part of the problem is not many writers can do omniscient well. To jump from one mind to another without confusion isn't easy. I have read books that would do one chapter from one character's POV, then the next was the other main character's POV. Fortunately, the writing managed to add to the story by keeping each character's views different enough that it worked.

It sounds like the author is showing the same thing but with a slightly different skew. I would still prefer that to mangled omniscients.


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J
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Mario Puzo wrote the Godfather in 3rd omni, if I recall correctly.
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GZ
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Retelling from a differnt 3rd limited POV seems valid so long as the reader learns something of significance from being in the other POV. A misunderstanding. New information the other character does not know. Then the switch is adding to the story, creating tension and interest. If repeating the information adds none of those thing, well then skipping the additional POV seems like the better choice. Omini would work to, but you do loose some of that close character identification, and I think the POV induced tensions cannot be built to the same levels as in 3rd limited.
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Survivor
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If the author is actually going back through the scene from multiple points of view rather than just switching POV and letting other characters remember those scenes from their own POV's, then that's a different problem from whether the story needs to be told in Full Omniscient.

Clancy used to do Full Omniscient quite well. Michener is considered a master of the form. It's true that I can't think of a lot of authors that have done Full Omniscient particularly well, but it is a valid choice if the focus of the story demands it.

I think that one of the key elements of choosing Full Omniscient is if the story is essentially didactic or persuasive. When you want to convince the audience that a story is really possible or teach them about what actually happened historically, Full Omniscient is a good choice.

The simple fact that a story involves multiple characters who have different perspectives on what is going on at any time isn't enough to argue that it should be Full Omniscient, unless you just happen to be one of the very few people with a real talent for writing in that perspective. I think that in the case of a book where the author is reprising scenes from multiple POVs, it is really more of an issue of a poorly chosen and executed device rather than something basic to the structure of the story.


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Jules
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Christine, you're not reading Dragonlance are you? It's the only series I've ever read that does this repeatedly. I have to say, it confused me the first couple of times they're in the middle of an action sequence and then suddenly it's all happening again from a different character's perspective, but once I got used to it it was quite effective.

I tend to think of it these days as the role-playing game POV. Each character gets their turn and all the turns happen simultaneously, like in D&D.


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Axi
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Christine, do you mind telling me the name of the book?

During some time I thought about trying that kind of thing (retelling from a different perspective), but I finally decided I wasn't able to do it well without boring the reader. I would be interested in reading it, maybe.

I read long ago a short story written by Borges, where he mentioned there was a Book called "The Book and the Ring" by Robert Browning which did something similar (and in poetry!). I purchased it from amazon but, shamefully, my english skills proved insufficient to understand everything from the start and I forgot the reading.

[This message has been edited by Axi (edited December 15, 2004).]


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shadowynd
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Axi, if you should decide to try reading that again in the future, we on the board would be happy to help you with the English. Just post a new thread here and ask about anything with which you are having trouble!

Susan


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Axi
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Thanks Susan!!!
I really appreciate that...

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Christine
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It was actually a novel by Mercedes Lackey and Larry Dixon...I usually like Mercedes Lackey I don't know that she should have teamed up on this one. I've only read the first in the trilogy so far...Owlflight. If you don't like Lackey I wouldn't read it. If you haven't read her, I would start with a different trilogy. This one builds upon the arrows trilogy which builds upon the heralds trilogy whic builds upon....you get the picture.
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KatFeete
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If you want to read good omniscient, go read some Victorian literature. No, really. You should be reading them anyway; they invented the novel, after all. *grin*

I would recommend Dickens, who does loads and loads of omnicient and is a pretty easy read, or Jane Austen, who does whatever the hell she wants and is also a good read. George Eliot is also excellent - Middlemarch is brilliant - but she is not an easy read and quite diabolically long. Thomas Hardy's just depressing.


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Christine
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Most of this thread seems to be recommendations for good use of omniscient POV, which is fine but I think I was really after something totally different: thoughts on what situations might suggest an omniscient viewpoint rather than limited. Literature has evolved. Omniscient used to be the norm, but now limited viewpoint is. But omniscient is still a tool we have in our belt. I sometimes feel that writers have misused limited third person POV, shoving it in there because it is the norm rather than because it is the best idea. And I know omniscient si hard, but why do we throw off doing things because it's hard?
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Axi
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Thanks Christine! I suppose I should have to read too much to get to that novel so maybe I'll pass but thanks anyway.

KatFeete: thanks for your recomendations! I've already read (and enjoyed) novels from Austen and Dickens. I'll try Eliot. I suppose that being spanish there are a lot of english classics that I miss just because in school they try to give more emphasis on the spanish ones. (BTW if anyone wants any reccomendations on spanish literature I'll be glad to give my two cents).

On your question, Christine. I'll give my opinion. I personally do experiments sometimes, trying to use other POV's but I always end up using the same: 3rd limited or first. These are the only ones I feel comfortable with. In my case, not using other options is a matter of "fear". I fear that I won't be able to involve the reader if I don't use the ones I have used more successfully.

[This message has been edited by Axi (edited December 15, 2004).]


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Lord Darkstorm
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From a practical standpoint, 3rd limited is easier to write. Since I think some day most of us would like to have something published, 3rd person is a quicker. I think omniscient is wonderfull if done right, but not everyone can do it in a way that works and isn't confusing. I would play with 1st person before trying my hand at omniscient.

I agree it is a skill that would be good to have. The question for me is...can it be learned, or does it have more to do with style and the way a writer thinks? One day I might give it a try, but till then I want to get 3rd person working well.


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Survivor
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To answer your question (again, see my previous post), the time you use omniscient is when you want to tell a story that is not primarily about individual people at all but is just as much about circumstances and the interactions of non-sentient entities like storms and fires and earthquakes and plumbing.

In other words, if you're dong a movie about an earthquake, then you can concentrate on the characters (Charlton Heston saving people from a collapsing building etc.) or you can concentrate on the geological processes that none of the characters directly experiences. One gives you Earthquake, the other is a Nova two hour special about earthquakes.

Now, both of these can have value, the question is which you want to write (translating movie to novel). The central reason to use omniscient is because the human drama is not the key tension. If the key tension is something that is not a human experience (meaning something that an individual human experiences), then Full Omniscient is a likely bet for your POV. Also, if you've written a number of Full Omniscient books that have been well recieved, then you might write in Full Omniscent even when telling a human scale drama.

I love watching Nova, and I love well written Full Omniscient. I don't even mind if one or two bits of science have been fudged (for Nova at least, I'm less forgiving when it comes to fiction) as long as overall there is a concerted effort to get it right. But it cannot be denied that proper Full Omniscient which gives equal time to every physical event which directly impacts the story (almost always an event story) being told will tend to relegate characters to somewhat subordinate roles. Or you could redefine character and say that there will be a lot of non-sentient/non-living characters crowding a proper use of Full Omniscient.

Narrator told stories are different. Any story can be told by a narrator, but then you need to have an attractive and interesting narrator. Dickens and contemporaries used narrators extensively. The form has fallen out of favor because it is a bit "cat's pajamas" to the modern audience, and there is also the issue of using fictional author narrators, where the narrator is a fictional version of the author with differing social, political, and often personal views. The modern audience is a bit less receptive to this sort of thing than was the case in earlier times (there are various reasons for this, but we probably shouldn't discuss them here).

Narrators are somewhat better accepted in Fantasy and futuristic SF, since it is easier for the audience to see that the fictional narrator is a literary convention rather than some kind of authorial deceit. But with the alienation of narrators from popular contemporary fiction and the relative difficulty of maintaining a narrator across an entire novel or series, it is probably the sort of thing that needs special circumstances to be used outside of shorter fiction.

As if anyone had asked about when you should use a narrator for a longer work...duh.


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wbriggs
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I can think of some times I found covering the same events from different viewpoints, fascinating. I'll use video, since it's usually more familiar. There was a M*A*S*H episode, where we saw the same events from Hawkeye's perspective, and from Frank Burns's.

I haven't tried omniscient, myself; it feels confusing to me. I am writing something now with multiple viewpoints. There is a little overlap; one piece of dialog that appears in 2 sections from 2 different perspectives. But I'm trying to keep it to a minimum.


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KatFeete
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There is certainly a place for omniscient. Sometimes, as Survivor suggests, you want to follow an event or process, like a war, although I personally would use the detached author for this. Other times you've just got a big story. Omnicient can lend an epic feel to a story: Tolkien used it to marvelous effect, and I'm currently reading Guy Gavriel Kay doing the same thing. And it can allow you to cover a lot of ground, plotwise, gracefully and with minimal repetetion.

The current fad is, as several people have said, for limited third person. All well and good: my current WIP is limited third with a single viewpoint character. The problem, to my mind, comes when people want lots and lots of characters but are intimidated by omniscient. So instead they use lots and lots and lots of limited third narrators, some of whom only appear once or twice, many of whom just repeat what some other narrator has said in a different way. And then they want to switch viewpoints in the middle of a scene, so they do - but only once or twice, and usually without warning or clarification - and then they get confused over who's seeing what, and the reader gets confused, and there's so many characters that you need an index to keep track, and the whole thing dissolves into an ugly gooey mess.

Whereas omniscient is difficult but infinitely flexible, allowing a writer to dip into minds at will, see into the past, see into the future, do whatever's necessary to get the story across. Useful, that.


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ChrisOwens
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I hate to keep bringing him up (it's the last series I completed), but I think David Farland uses omniscient here and there in the Runelords series.

In the first chapter of the first novel is omniscient, or starts omniscient but eases into third person limited. It's a tool he only uses on occasion.


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wetwilly
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I like to write an opening section in omniscient to set the seen, just basically paint a picture of what's going on without filtering it through any character's consciousness, then once I have the scene set, drop into third limited. It's a method I've used to good effect in short stories several times. At least, I thought it was to good effect.
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dpatridge
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i'm finding this discussion to be interesting.

my big baby, Searth, is being written through my omniscient narrator who is actually a secret character who has been involved from the beginning, and will remain involved until the very end of humanity. now, if that doesn't give dead away who that character is, i don't think anything will :P

anyways, i find it all very interesting that people seem to be so resistent to trying to write such. i mean, why not? it's just one more of the tools writers have in their belt, i'm young, i'm not published yet, and i have absolutely no fears about the fact that i'm writing Searth in omniscient, it's a limited sort of omniscient of course, the narrator, though omniscient, is acting a storyteller and has to follow conventions. but whatever. why the resistance to omniscient folks?


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Survivor
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That narrator better not be me, you stinker.
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