OK, so it takes more than 2 attractive people sparring ...

I am familiar from it only in video (Moonlighting, Northern Exposure). Hot woman, good looking guy, they argue a lot. What makes romantic tension work? Ideas?

Thanks. I am on a waiting list to be part of one of the small writer's groups, but it hasn't formed yet. I went to Card's writing class last June.

First, arguing does not equal romantic tension.

The tension comes from two people who want very much to be together, but, for whatever reason, can't.

Arguing is just one way for the characters in a story to let off steam regarding "the obstacle". It doesn't come from the passion itself. If it does, then your reader won't want the two to get together.

Writing this in a hurry. Will probably say more later.

I'm going to make a suggestion that I wouldn't make to ANYONE unless a loaded gun were being held to my head. And consider that it's just a suggestion, not one I've looked into (though maybe I should), but a thought that just popped into my head.

Ready?

Are you sure?

<holds breath>

Try reading a few Romance novels. From what I understand there are some good ones out there. Even if you read some bad ones you're learning how not to do it badly.

Films and television are the biggest offenders of our day in this department, but it's true of all narrative forms. You can't learn cinematography from reading books, you can't learn dance from listening to the radio, you can't learn the violin by watching dance.

Only after learning one art form can you apply knowledge gained from other media to your chosen art.

But I'll tell you right now what I think is the problem. You're showing two attractive people sparring (I don't even know that you've bothered to show that they're attractive, but forgive the assumption). What you aren't showing is that they're attracted to each other, but have some reason to avoid getting involved. In a performance using actors, it is very easy to show that two people are attracted to each other, you pick physically attractive actors and have them look at each other with those subtle little expressions we all like to see on the faces of really attractive people (unless we find ourselves in a situation where it is highly inconvenient to have an attractive person looking at us that way).

Even when they spar, that look tells us they're really attracted to each other. But you'll have a really difficult time doing that in a written account. For one thing, you don't have a pair of highly attractive actors, and if you did the reader still couldn't see them.

As for reading romance, there are plenty of non-"romance" novels that show people dealing with romantic tension. L.M. Bujold has written a number of them, almost all of her books are dripping with romantic complications of various types (my favorite was probably a clueless guy from Athos--also known as the "Planet of the Fags"--who is forced to venture out into the "female dominated" world and ends up working with a hyper-sexy mercenary to save his planet from destruction at the hands of the evil empire of genetic purists...don't worry, despite exposure to every manner of womanly wiles, he escapes and even gets the guy [a telepath, naturally...er, well, by virtue of some pretty intense genetic tinkering]).

Really, if you haven't gotten most of your knowledge of fictional romantic tension from novels already, then you need to seriously start reading more. Most novel length works contain at least one romantic subplot, usually a tension that is left largely unresolved. Not all of them are comic either, the romantic complications in Dune and the later novels were all deadly serious (this didn't mean they were never funny, God Emperor of Dune had some particularly humorous moments related to sexual frustration of various forms).

Anyway, now that I've got that out of my system...

I was wanting to start this thread. I've got a romance subplot streaming through my current mystery novel and it feels flimsy. I think I just realized something by reading a fantasy novel...the sequel to the one I was dissing on another thread for repeating scenes through different POV's. Anyway, what I realized was that at first, the romance is SUBTLE> We know they're going to get together because they're both POV characters, they're both attractive (stated through each other's eyes), and they're both good people who we like. But so far no open lust or attraction has come about, no endless romanticizing....it's just there in the background of everyone's head, including the reader's.

BTW, I also recommend reading romance. Try "Wishes" by Jude Devereaux to get your feet wet. It was the first I ever read and still the best, possibly in part because it's got a fantasy element. Definitely in part because it's got a fat girl. Other respectable romance writers are Judith McNaught and Catherine Coulter.

You want to study romance? Go to the people whose job it is to inspire those feelings in their readers. I don't think it should be apolgoized for. But when you read, also keep in mind that these authors write primarily for women. As such, they create more fantasy in their works that I could stomach from a fantasy novel. I particularly hate the women-tames-the-wild-beast story.

If your stomach churcns at reading romance, I recommend Mercedes Lackey's work as the best romantic fantasy. Pick up her Valdemar novels. She has at least one romance in every trilogy (she write them in 3's that manage to be fairly self-contained, although there are some I would read before others.) Just be prepared for unconventional romances at times. (By that I mean not always between a man and a woman.)

I never asked, what genre do you write?

I agree with Dakota and Survivor. Read, read, read, read, read. Most novels have a romantic subplot, but if all you're interested in is studying romantic tension, it might be better to go straight for the romance novel. (Don't hurt me. I have kids.)

Not the paperback ones! You know, Harlequin, etc. Some authors who write paperback can be really good, but, from what I remember, they're rare. The rest border on plotless erotica ... no tension whatsoever. Go for the hardcover. You'll have a better chance of finding some quality writing.

It's been a long time since I read romance, but a couple of authors I remember enjoying were Jude Devereaux and Danielle Steele. Devereaux tends to be lighthearted, while Steele is usually serious. I seem to remember both were good at creating romantic tension.

If you want a safe bet, I would recommend starting with Gone with the Wind by Margaret Mitchell. Great tension, even if you already know the ending.

[edited to add that I really enjoyed Wishes as well. Out of all the stuff I've read by her, I think it's her best. The Duchess is also good and some of Devereaux's earliest stuff, set in colonial America, made me look at my ancestors in a whole new light.]

It is curious to me that all of the romantic recommendations have come from people I am going to assume are women (aside from Survivor and Myself). Those women have all recommended women authors to provide them with their romantic enjoyment or inspiration. I went out on a limb and recommended a male author, beacuse it is less common for a male author to garnish his writing with romantic prose. This is of course my opinion. That is why I said that if a person could bridge the chasm between what males and females consider to be good romance that person would have a best seller on his/her hands.

Christines reaction to my suggestion was expected. But I still say that I liked the tension in that story. It is from a male perspective, and I am a male. I sometimes find the female version way too sweet and sugary for my tastes. That is why I don't go to movies (what I would term as CHICK FLIX) with my wife unless I absolutely have to. Or, read too many books by female authors, due to pages and pages of what I would term "sappy romance". I read Fantasy for the most part, and the female authors in that genre always have a much different tone. I can say that I really don't like those stories as well. Also my opinion.

I guess the real question that Mr. Briggs is posing (putting words in his mouth) is... What male referrence should he look at for romantic inspriation to use in his writing. I could be off base, but I think I may be on to something?

Frank Herbert's Dune has already been mentioned. Enchantment by OSC comes to mind. OSC is obviously male and yet I enjoyed the story and thought he did very well with the romance. The Last Unicorn is also written by a guy (Peter S. Beagle) but I think the growing romance between Molly and Schmendrick was one of the best parts of the book.

I focused on the romance genre in my post because it deals with romantic tension more explicitly than fantasy usually does. And yes, it's mostly populated with female authors. Why? Male authors don't usually understand what women classify as romance (Terry Brooks, for example).

Which goes back to TH's point. If you can write a romance that manages to appeal to both sexes, you'll have a bestseller.

[edited to add that although I know Dune is SF, it's always had a fantasy feel to me]

In fact, TruHero, You managed to pick the one book I would have chosen as an anti-example of romance! I've read the series. In fact, I think I'm up to date on his latest one (I just read it a couple weeks ago.) They're getting worse as he goes along, but let's take the first few which were pretty good and what kept me reading. He writes epic fantasy. He does a good job at writing epic fantasy. He has all the right elements: a steady hero with plain roots, a beautiful woman to fight for, an evil bad guy who turns out to be his father, a new evil bad guy who likes to have sex with little boys just in case we didn't like him for other reasons...But his romance is nothing but action-hero guy gets the girl nothing. The challenges in their relationship all came from the outside and were resolved by the third book. (I think...I might me misremembering which book was which.) In fact, most of their romance was resolved by the end of the first book in a cheesy love conquers all manner. There was never any question that the two might not get togheter. There was certainly never question. I just didn't feel the love. The fact that Goodkind uses sex to separate his good guys from his bad guys doens't help either. (The good guys have straight-forward heterosexual romances, the bad guys rape, are homosexual, or perverted.)

Magic Kingdom for Sale - Sold! was a pretty good series, but I never really believed the relationship between the main character and the ... whatever she was. I've forgotten now. Then again, the last book I read in that series was The Tangle Box. Maybe he's improved in that department since then.

I forgot about Enchantment, but even in that book, there is no question that the two characters would eventually get together. It is my opinion that Card just puts his romance across in a more feminine manner, and Goodkind uses a more blunt approach. I think this just strengthens my hypothesis about what males and females like in their romantic scenes.

Now Jordan on the other hand did a fine job of romance. The Lan and Moiraine connection was great. He has carried it through now with Lan and Egwene. Also, with Mat and the Queen (this was a good twist, a different kind of tension), and now with Mat and the princess of the nine moons. GREAT! The other relationships do not show tension so much, because they are what I would term somewhat "normal". Except for the fact that Rand has three women.

***

One major source of romantic question is where there are rivals for the same character's affections. This works best if the assumption of exclusive relationships is maintained (otherwise there is no particular reason that any competitors would necessarily get in the way). There can also be familial difficulties, perhaps the girl loves the guy but would gladly pick her nose in public and feed the boogers to her first born son just to annoy his family. Or the guy is way below the station which would be acceptable to the parents. These are all reasons that spring from outside the individuals involved but have to be resolved by them if the relationship is to be successful.

Most of us have been really attracted to someone who we had some reason to think would laugh at us if they knew.

I'll also clarify my situation: my novel is SF; as TruHero suspects, the viewpoint in this particular thread is male (like me); I might get PTSD if I read a romance novel ; and in keeping with our traditions, here are the first 13 lines of the revised, hopefully a bit hotter version(let's see if I know how to format):

quote:

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It was a time of, well, annoyance. They'd set up the experiment, and things kept going wrong. Joe Silverman's terminal showed an few images from the collisions; not nearly enough.

And Michelle had brought that monster of a dog, her Irish setter, into the lab. You couldn't have dogs in the buildings on campus! He'd always had a weakness for the Amerasian types, and especially for women who could carry on an intelligent conversation; if only she weren't so -- what was the word -- self-centered? Careless of things she didn't like to think about? Changeable as the weather?

"It's crashed again," she said.

"Well, then, do you think you might reboot it?" Joe said. The Irish setter, Buster -- squeezed under Michelle's desk, barely -- heard Joe's voice and waved its tail idly.

"It'll just go again, Silverman."

"Maybe it won't."

So they let the accelerator run again. Expensive equipment, if you were doing half-assed work . . .

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I add later something about her balancing by touching his shoulder.

I guess maybe I've read books with romantic tension before but sort of blocked it out--!

quote:

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my novel is SF; as TruHero suspects, the viewpoint in this particular thread is male (like me); I might get PTSD if I read a romance novel

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Well, in that case you need to read an SF romance novel, instead.

I also recommend posting this fragment on F&F.

quote:

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most of us have not sparred with a member of the opposite sex at all

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Here are a few sources of good tension that culminates.

Greg Keyes "The Briar King" between the kings forester and the bar maid that accompanies him (there names have escaped me) this relationship continues into "Charnel PRince" and in the same series the relationship between PRincess Anne and The Swordsman (whos name escapes me) from the provinces who becomes her escort, which becomes complicated by her maid. These two novels have very intricate and interesting relationships that build and change between the male-female pairings.

George Martins "A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords" have some equally nice bits, particularly the unlikely relationship between Jaime Lannister and The Maid of Tarth :-)

I hadn't really processed that definition of amerasian, but I guess that would be why it generally isn't used. It's like calling someone a war orphan. I tend to think of myself as biracial, or "other". The thing is that I look a lot more asian. Even other 100% Asians make the mistake of thinking I am 100% Asian. A Japanese social scientist even placed me at 95%. I can canvas my sisters to see if any of them have been called Amerasian. I guess I thought it meant a totally asian person who is an american, similar to AfroAmerican.

quote:

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I've not encountered that term, though it's surprisingly clear in meaning. 
Everyone should preface their Race by their Nationality. Frankasian,
Italiasian, Mexicasian... see how nice.

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I'm still here, folks, if only barely. Between my old computer dying, problems with my new one (which turned out to be nothing at all), and being highly stressed by hubby's health, I'm not being very active at the moment. You haven't gotten rid of me yet, though!

Merry Christmas one and all, Happy Holidays to anyone that doesn't celebrate Christmas, and a generic Oh Happy Day to anyone that doesn't celebrate a holiday this time of year! *VBG*

That said you can get some interesting racial characteristics when you mix different racial types.

I find attractive asian women more appealing than a comparably attractive white or black woman. That her appearance is exotic, relative to what I see on a regular basis increases the attraction. Of course if she has an awful personality it doesn't matter how attractive she is.

Mullato and Mestizo women/men also have an exotic appeal.

By blending these racial characteristics you often get striking features. There is a familiarity to the persons appearance falling in line with whichever racial feature takes prominence and then a hint of the exotic from the secondary racial characteristics.

I was commenting that it is important to show that Joe is attracted to Michelle particularly, not just to her physical "type" in order to develop a sense that a romantic relationship would be a real possibility.

Besides, characterization through physical description is very weak writing. Some people like that sort of thing, but it rapidly becomes...it gets hard to take the characters seriously when the author describes them too much in terms of appearence. That goes for the characters described and for the POV describing them, and double for when the discription is of the POV character.

Going back to ww's point, I think that as long as we don't take "sparring" to mean anything it doesn't mean and include things it does mean, a little sparring is a good way to show something interesting about a relationship.