posted
I have noticed in talking with people about dieting and weight issues, that the most judgmental viscious observers of others are the ones who need the diet the most.
Its in our papers, tv, and day to day observations of others.
yet in many other respects these people are sweet loving people.
I have a story where a man is facing off against an obese sadistic female stalker. He is a chubby fellow himself but his name for her is that fat b**** or mean cow etc. yes it hypocrisy. How can I represent his justified anger because of her ferocious attacks with his personal (but wrong)viewpoints that obese women are inherently evil or lesser than thin woman, without losing any empathy for this guy?
posted
Maybe some personal introspection would do. Example, he could say to himself or to another "I know I'm not one to talk given my weight..." or "I know I'm a bit chubby, but she's got her own gravitational pull."
You know? I mean that last example is extreme and wouldn't help... scratch that one.
Every protagonist should have some flaws -- ones that are perfect are boring. I don't think you really need to justify it... just write it out. Sounds like this big woman is mentally deranged enough anyway ...
posted
Calling somebody a fat beeyotch isn't exactly sympathetic, to be sure. I don't think it will matter much if he's a self-righteous thin guy or a clueless fat one.
There are a lot of ways you can go I think. One would be to tone it down: "out of shape" not "cow." Another would be to have him think it, not say it.
I suspect it will work better not to play it up, just state in one place that he thinks she's a fat cow, and then mention later how big he is. Readers will get it, I'd guess.
...but she's a sadistic stalker. Wouldn't he be angrier at this than at her weight? The weight irony might be a distraction.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited February 14, 2005).]
posted
In his warped viewpoint, one of the reasons she is sadistic is because she is obese. In other words fat is evil. He thinks that this stuff happens to him because he is fat (and male.) Or God hates him cuz he's fat.
This stalker is cruel. here is one of the things she did. She showed up at his house, broke into his house while he was in the shower and dumped a bucket of cold ice water on him. He never knew she was there untill the shock hit him. She was screaming at him "That could've been boiling water a**hole!"
posted
Feel free to disregard the following if it's too out there:
How about a legitimate fat phobia, then? He may very well be fat himself, but that wouldn't necessarily preclude him from being fearful of other fat people. He might even be fat for therapy's sake -- self-induced to help overcome his irrational fear. Granted, that wouldn't go far with the "God hates me" angle you've got.
By the way, I've known one person who was terrified of fat people... I never asked why, though.
posted
You might be able to express it as exported self-loathing that he projects on the stalker. He can't criticize himself (pride, or whatever), so he most despises the hated quality (that he sees in himself too but can't acknowledge) in his adversary.
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Does he only call her "fat b!thch" in his inner dialog? If so, that wouldn’t bother me at all. A person’s inner dialog contains all sorts of mean and disgusting thoughts that he would never share with others.
I think your readers will judge him by the way he interrelates with the other characters in the story.
posted
As writers, it is sometimes our job to try to understand the aspects of the human psyche that are at times unfathomable. The truth is that the fat people who are afraid of or scornful of other fat people may not be able to explain their behavior. Some may not even realize they behave that way, either because they don't think they are fat or because they don't notice how they act around other fat people. It is our job to create plausible reasons. But first, we have to be observant of the human behavior in qustion.
I, too, have noticed human hypocracy. I have seen fat people who are afraid or scornful of other fat people, but mostly on Jerry Springe. r I've known a lot of fat people in my life. I used to be one of them. The ones I've known are not scornful of other fat people so much as they are scornful of skinny people. They want to think that skinny people are unhealthy or obsessive and that's not the way to live. They speak of anorexia as if it afflicts anyone who weighs less than 140 pounds. When I lost 80 pounds they turned on me and accused me of losing the weight because I had low self esteem. In short, they want to excuse or explain away their behavior. Hating other fat people is entirely counter-productive along those lines.
The reason I mention this is because as common as hypocracy is, it seems to me that it usually occurs when people don't realize they're being hypocritical. Fat is a difficult thing to be a hypocrite about because it's in your face whenever you look in the mirror. A skinny person who *used* to be fat is more likely to be scornful of fat people.
That said, I've seen Jerry Springer a few times. The only thing I can figure is that in order for the disgustingly obese and entirely ugly people to lift up their own self-worth they put down anyone who is even possibly fatter or uglier than they are. Humans have always tried to build themselves up by putting others down, and even the people I know have ocassionally been scornful of a person who is *really* fat (as opposed to moderately fat like us).
posted
The only thing I can think to add is, Don't pass judgement on your characters.
This is something I learned in a theatre class and it is equally improtant for writing. When you are acting, if you feel you have to apologize or make-up for your character's flaws, then the character will not work and will not feel real to the audience.
Likewise, when you are writing, if you go around making apologies for your character's flaws, you will likely lose the character's effectiveness.
If your character isn't PC in his thoughts about other fat people, then it would be contrary to POV to tone it down. If your character isn't conflicted about how he feels about this stalker or how he refers to her, then don't impose a conflict. Stay true to the character and let your audience judge for themselves.
If you want to introduce a counterpoint to the character, have someone else call him on it and then let him defend himself.
P1 - "That fat, beached whale...I hate her!"
P2 - "You aren't much to look at yourself, you know."
P1 - "Well at least I don't need a crane to get out of bed! And I don't go around trying to sit on people with the express purpose of smoothering them. Do I need to remind you she's trying to kill me?!"
posted
"I have seen fat people who are afraid or scornful of other fat people, but mostly on Jerry Springer..."
I think Christine brings up an excellent potential motivation for the antagonist in your story. In order for that to work, thoungh, the main character would probably have to loose more weight than he already has...
My wife and I collect ambrotype and daguerreotype photographs. In our entire collection, we do not have a single image of a "fat" person. All the people in our collection range from slim to bare skin and bones.
Interestingly, most of the early photographs of "fat" people are erotic images produced by the early French daguerreotypists, circa 1840-1860.
posted
Ok how about this? What are some insults for crazy violent women? Beyond crazy B***** or psycho? It seems I have more insults for male crazies than female.
Posts: 451 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I feel that one of two things is happening here: either you are going off on a tangent that is not truly that important to the overall development of your story, or there is something about this fat woman that frightens or upsets your lead MORE than the fact that she's a sadistic stalker. You need to establish which it is. From what I've understood you to say, your lead is more caught up with the fact that she's fat than that she's doing all these horrible things to him. It's like those actions are merely a by-product of her being fat. The real issue is that she's fat. If that is true....then what is it about her being fat that's WORSE than having her sneak into his house and dump a bucket of water on him while he's in his own shower?!
Posts: 225 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:The only thing I can think to add is, Don't pass judgement on your characters. This is something I learned in a theatre class and it is equally improtant for writing.
Not always. You have to pass judgement on other characters as one character (more so in acting than anything else). People judge others, and if you have a character that doesn't, that character isn't real.
The lesson that you should have learned in theatre class is to not judge YOUR character.
posted
Is this woman actually physically stronger than the guy? Because then it makes sense that he would fear her enough to hate her. At the same time, he can't admit that the reason he hates her is because she is stronger, so he hates the fact that she is "fatter" than a "normal" woman.
Admittedly, this line of thinking just makes your character appear weaker and more despicable. If it is necessary that the woman be "stronger" than him in some sense, the more sensible thing would be to make her the cute psycotic stalker, able to get him again and again because no one will believe that she is a real threat to him. He is unable to defend himself effectively without appearing to be the monster of the story. It's the classic case of the villain holding the beautiful woman hostage to ensure the hero's helplessness, only the beautiful woman is the villain.
Sure, that might not be as original, but if you're going to worry about whether readers will want to empathize with your character, sometimes you have to go with what works rather than what doesn't work so well. My sense is that you're asking for the impossible if you want to find a way to make a modern audience feel empathy towards a guy who obviously has a "viewpoint" that being fat is a mark of evil.
Imagine that this guy were to hate her because she was black, because black people are evil. Can we suggest a way for you to make out that this isn't an utterly abhorrent character? You don't have many options other than trying to market this to a publishing house run by the Aryan Nations. There may be more tolerance in our culture for the idea that being fat is a sign of moral weakness than there is for the idea that having dark skin indicates anything similar, but not so much more that you can write a book about a character who subscribes to it.
posted
I think what Robyn meant when he/she said not to pass judgement on the characters is not to second guess what the reader will think of that character. I didn't see it as saying for characters not to judge one another, but more along the lines of not removing all flaws from your protagonist.
quote:Not always. You have to pass judgement on other characters as one character (more so in acting than anything else). People judge others, and if you have a character that doesn't, that character isn't real.
The lesson that you should have learned in theatre class is to not judge YOUR character.
When you are the author, which character is YOUR character?
I never said your characters couldn't judge each other, I actually recommended it.
But if "John" believes that all obese women are evil and deserve his disdain, it is a POV violation if - while in his POV - you tone down his opinions or make the narrative overtly PC.
To make John a sympathetic character with extreme prejudices, it is important that the audience understand why he feels the way he does, even if they disagree.
posted
I think it's necessary. Some of the trickiest work of fiction is showing contradictions and excesses of the human condition.
Posts: 193 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
The trick is for this guy to hate on the the fat girl or to dis her for her weight without losing empathy, huh?
Well, the thing is the empathy he could generate in being this way would most likely come from the audience feeling pity for this character's realization that he either a) doesn't even realize he is fat and therefore deserves pity because the man has a warped sense of self b) hates on her because of a traumatic past experience that led him to such a prejudice (which could by the way be funny or sad depending on how you handle it), or c) she has sexually harrassed him in a way he found completely repulsive (and perhaps anyone would) and therefore he just reacts to her in this prejudicial manner like a gag reflex which you can rarely blame one for, and maybe d) which is perhaps my case as a man of portly stature, she just isn't his type. So what? He's fat. He wants to date a model or at least an average girl. So what? Maybe he has a Napoleon complex but instead of being short he is fat and still wants to be with a girl who is a 10. Most men in the audience of readers probably wouldn't find this disgusting. Correct me if I'm wrong. And at least half of the women in the audience of readers wouldn't have a problem with this either or otherwise why do they spend so much money on their beauty every year? Because they don't want to be among the "fat b---s". I'd bet most of America is already on his side in calling her this. Matter of fact, this character is America. American's are fat, but we hate fat people. What is up with that? How do we keep empathy for ourselves? Well, we tell ourselves, "Well, at least I'm not as fat as so-and-so" and "I'm not as big as so and so." And the whole comparison of ourselves to others thing goes round and round and we even excuse ourselves because we intend to lose the weight at least whereas others may seem like they do not or even that we were once thin and will be thin again. I don't know. This is a great theme you are working out though. Please e-mail me and let me know how it works JSkaggs. ---Albert
posted
i'm building up a bit of a tummy, but i don't care, nor do i really care about another person being big... what bothers me is people who try to wear clothes that do not fit them. with guys it is always bagging to the knees, with girls it is always tight and small, just barely covering what needs covered.
when a girl with a little fat on her tries to follow the fad, it looks even more grotesque, but i dislike it even on those uber petits out there.
now, i did mention what the guys do right? the baggy pants? well, i'll be the first to admit i like my pants on the loose side, i'm a perfect fit at 32, but i like to wear 34s, which hold up on the butt, but don't ride the groin. but i see guys with 30 waists wearing 36 pants! they drop the things to the knees! it's as disgusting as the tight things that the girls wear.
posted
From my own experience I can say that I would call someone a "Fat B----!" if that in fact were truth. My wife and I are both ample in our girthitude, and neither of us has any compunctions about calling someone else "fat". My weight has no bearing on someone else's weight, or my perceptions of that weight.
One curious fact that I have noticed is the tendency to say things like, "God don't let me get as big as that guy." And "I'm not THAT fat am I?"
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