I'm working on a short story in which I want to use a place name in irish. There are a couple of reasons for this but the main thing is I want to disguise the place until the end of the story. It means island of the apples - Avalon. It will only be mentioned once or twice.

The options are
Oileann na h-úlla - island of the apples
Inis úl - Apple island
Oileann an úl - island of the apple.

(My translations are quite rough, so if anyone has a better idea please let me know. I have a friend who took Irish language in college so I will be checking the technicalities with her.)

If you don't know Irish, does it read really strangely? If so, it this a problem. Which sounds best.

I'm not intending to state outright that it is Avalon, but more let the reader surmise as much from the context and the reveal of that context which will be related to a character name - I'm going for a proto-Arthurian feel. It's set in Ireland of the dark ages, with a character having travelled from Wales.

I don't want to go outright Arthurian, because its not about men in shinig armour and I want it to only touch the Arthurian myth, as if this is part of its earliest origins.

Does it sound like a workable idea? I know there are a few Arthur buffs out there, so I plan to be picking your brains big time when I have more written.

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The options are
Oileann na h-úlla - island of the apples
Inis úl - Apple island
Oileann an úl - island of the apple.

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I thought you might find this brief piece on withholding information useful, given what I understand you are doing with this piece.

http://www.thinkage.ca/~jim/prose/suspenseandwithholdinginformation.htm

mm

* A detective story (and I still insist on getting all the clues)
* A story about a scheme, like a heist (and I insist that what ISN'T being told be clearly identified, as in, the robbers don't tell me their scheme, but I still know they have one)

Botanists believe that they were popular in the mediterranean and especially Rome and that it was the Romans that introduced them to the British Isles.

So (pedant that I am) I would not like a pre-Roman british settlement that had a reference to apples.

Post Roman is fine. Avalon as a word is clearly post Roman. But then so was Arthur, whether this is an Arthurian tale set pre or post Roman occupation is not disclosed but sounds a bit like it is before.

Dark Ages is a term that confuses me, so if that is an explanation -- sorry, I missed it.

By the way, did you know that Tasmania (my home) is referred to as the Apple Isle? Right now your thinking "Who cares? Just shut-up and stop posting."

For the record I prefer 'Inis úl'

I may have given you the wrong end of the stick a bit here.

It's not that I'm withholding information from the reader, but it isn't actually important to the story. The effect I am trying to create is to do with layers - how history and legend merge at this point in time.

There has always been a lot of trade and communication between Ireland and Wales. Our patron Saint, St Patrick, was a welshman (over from Holyhead on a day trip - sorry, bad local joke, couldn't resist). The idea is that a welsh character has come to Ireland on a mission for his warleader. It is indeed post Roman Britain, but less Salmation Knights. I'm trying to avoid overt allusion to the Arthur tales because of a reader's associations.

It's more Arthgwr or Aurelius than Arthur, if you see what I mean.

It's going to be a short story to begin with and I will definitely post it in Fragments and Feedback when I have a full draft. At the moment I am about half way through.

Hoptoad - good point about the apples. I may try to find something in Irish that sounds phoenetically like Avalon rather than use úl. In that case I think Oileann is actually a good start, both as it reads and phoeonetically (ill-lawn).

I didn't know that about Tasmania. Who knows, perhaps its actually Arthur's Avalon, or the Celt's Tir na nOg (Land of Youth). Never apologise for new information. I love strange facts.

Mike, thanks for the link. It looks useful. I'll give it the once over.

there's a new suggestion on the cards thanks to my mate.

Abhainn lán

Which would translate as something like the Abundant River. (Or the River Abundant, if you want to get technical).

What do you think?

I like the words seperately too.

Also, being an Arthurphile, I certainly hope you will feel VERY FREE to send this story to me when you are ready for critiques. No need to ask. Just send it. Oh, yeah. And pick my brain all you want.

hoptoad - you aren't far off. Abhainn lán would be something like Ow-on lawn or Ah-von lawn. It depends on little things like dialect and accent. It's amazing that in such a small country, the way Irish sounds can be so dramatically different. Donegal Irish and Kerry Irish can sound like totally different languages - not to mention the infamous "School" Irish.

I had a good chat with Brid. She studies Irish historical linguistics as well as old Irish in college. This is what she said:

quote:

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also anything like abhainn for river is lingusitcally - direct anaology- to avon in old english
Anna livia
Abhainn na life

avon is abhainn
gown is guna

they just develped slightly in different ways but come from exactlyu the same word if you go back far enough.

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So the River Avon is basically the River River.

She also gave me the link to the following site. Dakota, as you mentioned Scots Gaelic you could find this very interesting too.

http://www.mackinnon.me.uk/Faclair/

There are so many links in the old celtic legends. For example, Gawain is sometimes referred to as being of the Setantii. Setanta was the boyhood name of Cuchulainn which has lead many scholars to draw a direct correlation between Gawain (or Gwalchmai) and Cuchulainn.

It's one of the problems I often run into when researching a story of this ilk. I get so caught up in the research and in these wonderfully intricate links that I don't get round to writing the story!!! That's it though. I have to write it now, if only to post it on the F&F here. Many thanks for the offers to read, folks. I will supply it as soon as I stop faffing around and get it done.

I know I'll be back to pick the brains of those in the know.

Here's another thought - what correlations are there between Nimue and the Lady of the Lake. I keep seeing oblique references, but I can't find much solid in the different stories.

I personally think that both were transplanted into the story. I don't think they belong. In fact, anything that can be attributed to more than one legend, IMO, can be removed from the Arthur legends. When you start filtering those things out, you're actually left with a much smaller, but more interesting work, because it starts sounding REAL! That's what is intriguing for me when we're discussing Arthur--what COULD HAVE BEEN REAL!!

The Arthur myth we have today is (at least) 90% legends, probably more. 70% of those legends are medieval, usually French romances. 19% are modern. The rest are a mishmash of Welsh, Scottish and other, hardly identifiable older stories which have eventually been transplanted onto the Arthur myth. That's the type of story I am trying to get at - more Arthgwr than Arthur. There is magic and fantasy in this story. Sorry if it doesn't appeal to you, because I'd still value your take on it when its finally done.

Wow, I hope the story lives up to this thread!

JBShearer - it's one theory, certainly the one Glastonbury tourism office would like everyone to believe There are also a lot of analogies with the Celtic otherworld leading to the theory that it was an entirely mythical place, another version of Tir na n-Og.