Of course, a lot of what I know and feel I know is my opinion, but there comes a point in time when you at least want your opinion respected, even if it is not shared. I guess I'm getting old and bitter.

In the past couple of months I have made a scant handful of responses on F&F. At least twice in that time I've had my head bitten off as a reward for my decision to take the time and effort to try to help.

Have I become mean in my responses or something? Have I become callous or in some other way invited attack rather than the courteous "thank you" i expected? Has my advice gone too far over the heads of writers who are maybe only ready for smaller bits of change?

Sometimes I feel as if I've outgrown this board. At first I stayed because I needed to learn things. Then I slowly transitioned to providing more advice than I took. Then I stayed because of the people and personalities I like so much.

But now...I don't know what happened. Maybe I'm expecting too much from people. Maybe wanting a "thank you" rather than an attack is simply asking for too much from writers who are just beginning to learn how to get their work critiqued. Then again, maybe it's time someone else taught them that particular lesson.

I've been less active on these boards of late. I would expect that to continue. I would also not expect a response on F&F unless I know you.

In the meantime, I will throw this out one last time before I get blue in the face from it:

THERE ARE TWO ACCEPTABLE RESPONSES TO A CRITIQUE:

1. THANK YOU (This is the best option.)
2. A CLARIFYING QUESTION (Use this option with care, and only when you are inclined to either agree with a comment or when you do not understand the comment. You do not use this option if you disagree with a comment. You simply ignore it.)

There are many unacceptable responses to a critique. Too many to enumerate. But just so you understand the basics:

When you send your story to a publisher, you do not get to explain or argue. If a publisher takes on your story and publishes it, you do not get to explain to your resaders. You do not get to argue. You do not get to tell them what you meant. The only communication you get is through that story. Critiquers try to tell you what they are hearing on the other side so you can hone your message, not so you can explain why they were wrong.

I'm sorry you're feeling old and bitter, Christine. I've been there, with other sites, and it's not fun.

My opinion - I don't think you've become mean at all. I've been surprised by the reaction you've gotten a few times lately. You seem to have tangled with people who are still learning how this site works, and aren't ready to appreciate your comments yet.

I absolutely know what you mean. One thing I noticed after attending OSC's bootcamp last year is that my critiques have been much more pointed. I've learned to winnow prose into good and bad and I rarely hold punches. I imagine that if a writer isn't used to such a direct format, it can seem abrupt.

I've withdrawn a bit from these boards over the past year, also. I supplement this one with the private board for my bootcamp class, but also Codex. I think it's important to change your surroundings, partially because new people means new viewpoints, but also to keep with a crowd that is writing at your level (I don't mean skill here, but rather dedication).

I don't think you've become mean at all. I have not had the pleasure of a crit from you but I've read other comments of yours and they are always insightful.

I think writers not used to receiving crits always feel the need to explain themselves, which could easily be taken as arguing. You made a very good point that we will not be able to make such an explanation to an editor or to our readers so we need to get used to that now.

"Don't let the ____ing _____rds get you down."

I've found that I rarely notice any part that is better than the rest. Either the story is well done, or it has problems. I can point out problems I see and ignore the rest. Maybe it isn't what someone wants, but if I don't have any problems with a story...that is praise. I do have rare moments when something strikes me as done so well I notice, I do mention those.

I think the problem is that we all have our transition time when we realize that we can write something that is readable. Similar to the first grade kid and the finger painting. No one will tell the kid that the stick figure doesn't look like a person, but that is because they are a child. Here, I would rather have someone tell me something doesn't work...or even if it sucked, rather than go on believing it is better than it really is.

I'm still trying to figure out why the stories I write and don't like, have less issues than the ones I do...

I know that I haven't been on the F&F board alot lately, but life has gotten in the way.

I don't know from personal experience if you've ever done a crit for one of my pieces or not, but I thank each and everyone that has helped me out with the troublesome pieces that I'm trying to write.

I can also understand that a bit of nastiness is and can be tiresome and unacceptable. I also agree with you that a thank you should be given out to those that take the time out of their busy schedule to do you a favor by reading and giving you their thoughts on your writing.

With that said, I have always said at the end of the crits that I give, I say hope this helps or something like that.

If you decide to leave us here, Christine, I for one will be sad to see you leave. You have a gentle tone, but more importantly, you give us knowledgeable and insightful points on our writing.

Sorry if you decide to leave, but IT is your decision after all.

You'll be missed.

quote:

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The great writer Hunter S. Thompson had words to suit this occasion, but not the Hatrack habitat. Perhaps you can fill in the blanks yourself.
"Don't let the ____ing _____rds get you down."

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Which, like any good writer he 'adopted' from an earlier one, in this case, the unknown who scratched 'illegitmi non carborundum' on the walls of the catacombs uner Rome. I wonder where he or she got it from? The Egyptians? The Sumerians?

Bye, Christine. Sometimes it's just time to go on. We lesser writers will have to muddle along without you. I do appreciate the time you've spent here and I have learned from you. That is a great gift. Thank you.

In a sense, you're now graduating from being a newbie. There's an entire world beyond this writer's forum. Go forth and conquer.

Apart from the loss of experience and intelligence, it's lovely to come to a place where people know, like and respect each other. What I have noticed about this forum is how kind and caring people are of others work.

Sometimes one needs space of course. Sitting in front of a screen typing thoughts is never a replacement for talking face to face. Especially when you want to give people a big ol' blast.

And looking for something that isn't there is terribly frustrating - especially if it is good manners.

But please don't go angry and annoyed, it is a terrible way to leave.

I've only ever found your posts helpful and courteous. You have a great deal of experience which you have been so kind as to share with us all and we will miss you.

But you can always drop back in - for a cup of tea and a chat? Best of luck with all the wonderful things you're doing with your life and let us know the result of that other big project you're in the middle of.

I have learned much from your posts and I am sorry that you may be leaving.

I have learned a lot here, but not in quite some time. I don't mean to sound snobby or anything, but I've got the basics. I need to find a place where I can work on new challenges; where I can go from being good to being great. I have even identified a couple of key problems with my writing: character motivation and depth of emotion. It has taken me a long time to identify these problems because no one ever phrases them that way. Nevertheless, the answers I seek lie in practice, practice, practice, and perhaps even (as Rahl mentioned) finding a group that is as dedicated to writing as I am. There are many dedicated writers here, but many more who have other commitments. With the exception of my family, I have no more important commitment.

So I will poke my head in here and see what's new. I have already begun skipping threads that turn out to be repeats of discussions I've taken part in a dozen times. I will most likely continue to skip those threads. I will poke my nose in F&F from time to time as well, although I will mainly stick to critiques of familiar names.

quote:

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There are many dedicated writers here, but many more who have other commitments. With the exception of my family, I have no more important commitment.

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I think you'll be surprised how much a baby can intrude on a person's dedication to writing. [evil laugh]

I wish you well. I hope you'll find yourself able to devote as much time to writing as you wish.

Wanted to add that I've always found your crits, at the very least, thought-provoking. I'll miss your comments.

however, Christine, i have GREATLY appreciated your input here in Open Discussions. I am learning a lot here and will continue to do so until i feel like taking another go at F&F. at which time i return to F&F, i will hopefully be better prepared to take the crits and resist my devilish need to debate.

yes, i admit it, i am a debater, and my writing reflects on it, and i am certain that my posts as well, reflect it. i realize, however, that i need to be extra careful with crits to RESIST the inner spirit of debate and just thank the person or ask for clarification. take the debate into myself and create characters for the person i want to debate with in my head (i really do fictitious debates in my head at times...)