First: Does outlining count as writing? For instance, I type all my stories in Word. I generally outline them first one notebook paper before I turn on the computer. If all I did one day was work on my outline, but didn't type any of it into my current draft, would that qualify as writing? Weird question, I know.

Second: How do people write without an outline? I'm working on a story right now which I haven't outlined to the degree I normally like, and I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of things for my main character to do that will advance the story the way I want it to advance. I've written about 1/4 a page in an hour, but I've written that 1/4 page about thirty different times.

Do I just not have what it takes to be a writer? Or should I stick to thinking out my stories for weeks or longer, using index cards to plot scenes, and pretty much get my entire story worked out on paper before I start typing my first draft? I know writers such as Ray Bradbury wrote without an outline, and they produced some of the great fiction I've read. I don't know how they do it; I guess I just can't right now.

Third: Why do people hate TV so much when it comes to being a writer? I enjoy watching TV, and I admit I'm a bit addicted. But during commercials, and even during the shows I watch, my "idea net" is always open. I got a decent idea for a detail in my SF world tonight from a cruise liner commercial and wrote it down. Could my reliance on TV to get my ideas flow be restraining my creativity, thus exacerbating my problem in my second question? Argh.

Second: Everyone's different. I go back and forth on whether I outline or not; right now I'm in an outline phase. If outlining works for you, go with it. Bradbury is not an outliner; there are a gazillion other famous and fabulous writers who are obsessive outliners. I'm reading the Paris Review interview series right now and that comes up a fair bit - there are those who need every word planned out in advance, and those who have no idea what the next sentence is going to say. You just need to play around until you figure out what works for you.

Third, I love TV. Especially reality shows. I procrastinate by watching TV. I got hooked on reality TV one summer when I was writing a wretched novel - I'd go watch Bachelorettes in Alaska instead. God, that was awful.

The other side of that is that I like having my imagination engaged, which a book does, but TV paints so much of the picture that there is little left for me to do. I find that hypnotizing, but not engaging.

I write without major outlines. I might put simple plot points down and have a vague idea of the ending. If I once can visualize the way the story should end, I can type my way through the middle without a lot of additional planning. This applies mostly to shorts, by the way. I have only attempted one novel and it didn't work, so I am trying to figure out more about my personal style of writing before attempting one again.

As far as TV goes, there are some great shows and some TERRIBLE shows. Personally, I like to watch Monk, some of the shows on HGTV, and Survivor (yes, I know. A lot of people hate that one. But I like learning what it teaches about human nature.) I would have liked to have watched Battlestar Galactica and Lost, but only found out about both of those recently and I don't like to jump in in the middle. I'll have to wait for them to come out on DVD. I also plan on watching season 2 of The 4400 this summer.

First: Yes. In my opinion, this absolutely counts as writing. I'm much the same. I think it's especially important to have an end in sight. If I didn't outline, then I'm sure my plot would end up all over the place. However, it is hard to 'outline' characters; they only truly come to life in the 'proper' writing of the piece.

Second: Spend as much time planning and plotting as you like. A 1/4 of a page in an hour is good, anyhow. And the fact that you've rewritten it three times is nothing to worry about; it simply shows that you care about your craft.

Third: There's nothing wrong with watching some television, but don't let it interfere with your writing. And don't neglect reading!!! No one can expect to be a good writer if they don't read frequently.

Yes, I outline. It's a strange process, mixed with what I learned from David Morrell, John Irving, and Robert McKee. Basically, it this. I start by keeping a "story diary" in which I alternate between my writing down my ideas and asking questions about by ideas. While doing this, I start writing out scene ideas on 3x5 cards--one or two sentences of what happens in that scene. Nothing major. Within 4 to 6 weeks everything comes together and I have a scene outline--somewhere between 40 and 60 scenes. I take this scene outline and try to write a 4 page synposis because I want to make sure I have the basic story firm in my head. If I can't do it in 4 pages, how can I do it in 400? Once I do that, I turn around and work my way through the scene outline, expanding each scene into a paragraph or two, showing the movement of the characters, briefly noting what they talk about, and so forth. Nothing too specific. This is what I call my Major Treatment. Once this is done, I start my first draft.

My analogy to all of this is like ironing. Each time I pass through the story I'm able to iron it out--make it clearer in my head. If you look at my process, I've already told the story three times in three different ways before I get to my first draft, and I found that each pass through the story makes it better. I won't hold firm to my Major Treatment if an idea present itself to me during the drafting stage, but I found having a Treatment to guide me alows me to focus on writing during the first draft, not so much the story.

I've also found the secret to outlining a novel is that you MUST know the ending. Everything in the novel sets up the ending. If you don't have an ending, you don't have a story.

Do YOU need to outline? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Each writer is different. But before you become too frustrated, I'd encourage you to read Lawerence Block's WRITING THE NOVEL. It helped me a lot.

Remember, not everyone needs to outline. Different writers work differently. There's no right or wrong way to work. Getting the story written is the only way to measure success.

What I said about endings is very important. You have to remember that there are only THREE possible endings to any story. (1) Postive: The hero gets what he wants and is happy. (2) Negative: The hero fails to get what he wants and is unhappy. (3) Ironic: The hero gets what he wants, but is unhappy.

(1) Luke wants to learn the way of the force, and he does, and it helps him destory the Death Star, and he's happy.

(2) In Stephen King's PET SEMETARY, Louis uses the old Indian burial ground to bring his dauther's cat, then his son, and finally his wife back from the dead . . . and this makes him unhappy.

(2) In ENDER'S GAME, Ender saves the world from the buggers, but is saddened by his success.

I suppose you could add a fourth--the hero doesn't get what he wants, and this makes him happy--but that seems to lack dramatic fulfillment.

So find your ending, and then work backwards.

Also, one of the arguments against outlining is that it stifles creativity. I haven't found this to be so. Of course, I operate under two principles. (1) Nothing is set in stone until I finish a revision of my first draft. At some point in time I have to say, "It is finished," but no matter how much outlining I've done, I allow myself to deviate if I can think of something better.

That brings me to number 2, and here I'm going to quote from Robert McKee's STORY:

quote:

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The writer . . . wants to destory his work. Taste and experience tell him that 90 percent of everything he writes, regardless of his genius, is mediocre at best. In his patient search for quality, he must create far more material than he can use, then destory it. He may sketch a scene a dozen different ways before finally throwing the idea of the scene out of the outline. He may destory sequences, whole acts. A writer secure in his talen knows there's no limit to what he can create, and so he trashes everything less than his best on a quest for a gem-quality story.

---

I know this is long . . . but I hope it helps.

I can't thing of an example of a negative ending--that the character fails to achieve his goal, and that makes him unhappy. I suppose that kind of failure doesn't make good long fiction.

I used a scene-by-scene outline for my novel. I couldn't have done it otherwise. I haven't used this for short fiction, but that's because there were few enough scenes I could know what was going to happen without writing it down.

But, sure, give up on writing! If you can't, you're a writer. (That's what I hear, anyway.)

--

A story with an unhappy ending: "A Good Man is Hard to Find," by Flannery O'Connor. There is one nice thing at the end, but it's overwhelmingly tragic. Also "Good Country People" and "The Life You Save May Be Your Own."

I think a lot of horror also does this.

"But, sure, give up on writing! If you can't, you're a writer. (That's what I hear, anyway.)"

Writing is like having a child. You dont get made at three month old cuz she can't walk. You have to let yourself grow at a pace that is natural and fulfilling for you.

This is something that happens to many artists- the desire to be great instantaneously. And when it doesn't happen we get flustered and sometimes depressed.

So, yes, planning for me is an essential part of writing.

TV? I watch less and less as the years go by. You may get some ideas but is it worth it? Why not observe real life? Do you really think anyone of TV is acting naturally? (anwser = NO!). Be it a drama or a fly on the wall show, it's all controlled and flat for me.

Robert Heinlein has his five rules of writing, and one of those rules (the third one, I think) says, Do not edit. But from what I've read, he doesn't mean one should revise or rewrite, but that once a story is complete, don't start changing it unless an editor ask you to. He could have made himself a bit clearer on this point, to be sure.

Second: I don't outline, in general. I tried to do the notecard thing with my novel, but it just changes too much while I write. And I like the changes better than the planned stories.

2. I almost never use an outline... honestly, I usually don't know what's going to happen 'til it happens. Writing for me is just as exciting as reading someone else’s work. How do I do it? Well... that's harder to explain without you actually being in my head...

3. I don't know... I could never figure that one out. Some say it kills your originality, but then you could just as easily say that about books and anything else. I actually get a lot of ideas from playing video games... which I usually find odd because the games I play are strategy games that have almost no, if any, story line... any storyline that it does have comes completely from my head, the game's objective only served as a tool...

Whit Stillman, who directed and wrote The Last Days of Disco, Barcelona and Metropolitan, also writes excellent dialogue.

SPONTANEOUS TANGENT:

Personally, I wish all writers of television speculative fiction would study the West Wing, but for its characters, not for its dialogue. West Wing characters behave and speak like competent professionals. In contrast, characters on all the Stargate shows, Farscape, Andromeda, Enterprise, and Voyager are all cartoon characters. No rational civilization would allow these unprofessional whiners to keep their jobs.

quote:

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In contrast, characters on all the Stargate shows, Farscape, Andromeda, Enterprise, and Voyager are all cartoon characters.

---

GASP! How dare you lump Farscape in with those other shows! Arrgh.

I'll concede to some rather silly characters, but that's the whole idea of Farscape. It never took itself serious, even when it was being serious. Alas, we have different tastes.

I've seen precisely one episode of West Wing. Didn't like it. But then I hate all things political and especially politicians among those. I would not be heartbroken if someone invented and used a weapon that could only kill politicians. (That's a bit harsh, sure... I don't mean that literally. But I really don't like or trust politicians.)

I suppose politics is a necessary evil. Doesn't mean I like it. Grr, politics. Grr.

quote:

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Robert Heinlein has his five rules of writing, and one of those rules (the third one, I think) says, Do not edit. But from what I've read, he doesn't mean one should revise or rewrite, but that once a story is complete, don't start changing it unless an editor ask you to. He could have made himself a bit clearer on this point, to be sure.

---

Yeah, it would have been nice. I read an article from Writer's Digest Guide to Good Writing (it's a collection of essays on various topics that spans the entire life of the magazine and I highly recommend it) by Isaac Asimov on the subject of rewriting and it mentions Heinlein's approach.

In it, he describes how he started off by writing one draft to get the story down, writing a second draft that corrected any mistakes made in the first, and that was all.

One day, he and Heinlein were talking about writing and he mentioned that this was his method of rewriting. Heinlein was appalled. He declared he only wrote one draft: if there were any mistakes in Asimov's first drafts, it was because he wasn't a very good writer (I'm sure Asimov punched up Heinlein's reaction for humorous effect). So, Asimov started trying to write "only one draft". All his stories sucked and he hated it.

Then, he talked to another writer (the name eludes me at the moment) who said that he rewrote his manuscripts several times until every phrase, every word was perfect. He was appalled that Asimov was trying to get it right the first time. This writer told Asimov that sometimes a manuscript needed to be gone over 10, 20 or even 30 times before it was ready for publishing.

So, Asimov -- having already realized the futility of the "one draft" solution for his writing -- decided to try this other author's approach. It was almost as bad as the "one draft" approach: nothing was ever good enough and the process exhausted him.

So, he ended up going back to his original style: two drafts, one for story, one for neatness. That was where he found happiness.

His point in the (very funny) essay was that everyone has their own style and a writer needs to find out what works for them.

As for me, I'm learning that outlines are a good thing. If I have an outline I know where I'm going and I know what I need to foreshadow and stress from the beginning. It makes rewriting a lot easier.

However, I tend not to do this with my shorter stories. I just write whatever comes to mind and hope the story stays short.

TV: My TV addiction is erratic. About the only thing I watch regularly is the late-night news. Other than that, I'll watch PBS specials/shows and an occasional episode of regular TV's "hottest, new show" just to see what the hype is about. 90% of the time I hate it and never watch another episode. Even if I like it, I rarely get a chance to watch it again.

Who knows if you have what it takes? I bet you do, but you're reading your block wrong. I used to read block as "you suck" and "you don't have it" and "you just can't learn this gift." That's not what it means.

You're blocked because you are either trying to be perfect (write this killer story of all time), or because you've run to the end of your invention--you don't care anymore or don't believe what you're writing.

My suggestion--just start making lists of options to your immediate story problem. Ask yourself questions. What's missing? Do I not believe this or not care? What don't I myself buy? Etc. Sooner or later the damn will break and you'll write like a madman until you run to the end of that batch of invention.

Here's an answer to your outline question, which, to me, is, well, kind of odd. Because you're not asking about outlines. You're wanting so badly to write and meet some goal and want to count outlining so you can tell yourself you're writing. [Have I guessed right?]

Here's a way to look at writing that I find beneficial. It's takes. like with the movies.

When I write, I've found a method that goes from general to specific. It's all writing to me because I'm getting the story down. It goes like this.

I'm doing some reading, or watching a show, or any number of things and get something with some zing. An image, person, or situation. Usually, I've got other cool ideas floating around that I've stumbled across in just the same manner.

Sooner or later I start making connections with these cool ideas and scribble some ideas on a paper about a situation.

That's take 1.

Take 2. I try to outline what might happen. If story is about a character solving some danger/problem, then I try to define it, define some of the attempts to resolve. I'll get snatches of dialogue or images. Usually don't feel quite ready to write at this point. And I find if I don't have a rough idea of what's supposed to happen in a scene I can't write. Don't need a super-detailed outline. Just need to know the purpose of a scene.

Take 3. If something's not right, I try it again. I might write, asking questions about what's not working etc. All this goes into the take. If I get stuck I try again.

take 4-?. I start the draft, the scene. Sometimes it goes for a while and I get blocked. Sometimes I'll write a story or chapter in two takes. Sometimes in 26. But eventually I get it.

Notice how he goes from summary to scene. I've found a lot of mine do that as well. Here's an example of a chapter from my last novel. You'll see my outlines are NOT clean, crisp outlines. Sometimes I can do a step outline. But often I'll be talking to myself.

-----------------------------------------
Take 1
So SM comes in
Torr is found
Sm reaction--where are they? Here, but gone
Set up a watch
Questions Torr--the creature etc.
Works on the Iron Serpent, or quickens it, has a gauntlet to work with it.
They wait. Nothing.
Then Dreadman comes, they're dead.
Shegom? Hiding something
He goes out
Creature drops down behind him, between him and his serpent (silver and skin and flashing, but we only see it later) MORE HUMAN, SOLID, THE COLOR OF DIRT AND BLUE STONE
Stones and shegom
Wind rising, but too late
Thuds
Torr goes and gets gauntlet
Sugar shows up
They're obstacle is soldiers? Then to the cave

Leaf tries to take it, but is cast aside.

-----------------------------------------
Special weapon?
SM has a black blade

Whip
Rope
Club
Dagger
Spear
Knife
Star
Servants--serpent, Shegom
Collar
Spike, turn to worms on contact and wriggle in? (Leaf)
Hammer
Insect (his bees or wasps)
Poison
Poisoned darts

-----------------------------------------
So here's the FIGHT

Drops down. Leaf turns, brings out sword. Hacks off arm. Stabs. Choked to death, raised up. Brings down sword to decapitate, nothing. Then Hunger grabs him.
Leaf calls out
SM comes
Leaf killed
SM--I see you now (some name, thief)
Stone, huge pins him to the side of the hill. He wrestles it off, casts it back with more force.
Charges, wrestle (calling for his spikes, clansman, spikes)
Hurls the Giant
Reaches into the thing, punches hole in chest, laughs, I've got it now. Thing reaches up, SM begins to scream, tries to pull away, calls wind, breaks away, Hunger jumps into wind after him...

Argoth holding them (crying, crying his eyes out)

Brings out spikes. They wriggle in and he keeps coming. Have to have gauntlet to handle them. Creature picks up Argoth, flings things aside, not knowing. Leaves.

NOW WHAT IF SUGAR IS ALREADY HERE? And so they take the fight to the place. And we can move immediately into Torr. Right now he has to chase him back. But that's also good. How to heighten it?
Well, have them do this there.
The two of them are riding the horse together. They take livery of Dreadmen to disguise at a distance.
We've got Shim and the Crab as well. So maybe the Crab sees and follows or something, chases. They're going to take Argoth after the cave, but Shim shows up...They're on Shoka land afterall. Find some odd things in the cave. Brought out and burned, cast into the sea (does she resurrect them then, creatures coming out of the water?, seaweed all about them, anemones upon them, something drawn to their life)

So HOW DO I KEEP THE INTENSITY???? Show them gathering, going, etc. Hummmm

Came for Hogan, Shim's forces followed

Option 1: sugar comes after
SM falls
Hides, Argoth taken, goes gets gauntlet, follows with spikes or tries to get there before him on roads
[SEE THAT'S THE LAG]
Goes in
Throws, stops for a moment
Grabs
Brings him in
The Mother
The End (PLANT SUMMER TRYING TO FIX HIM, SAYING HE'S ALL SCREWED UP, ALMOST UNHUMAN, NOT NATURAL, MOTHER DID SOMETHING)
Back out, Crab there with arrows, ready to arrest
Shim shows up--Shoka land

Option 2: sugar taken
Sugar caught
Questioned
They leave (Crab sent to meet them there)
Go to the cave
Hunger shows up
Then fight
Then Torr gets gauntlet and follows in
Tries, fails

[DON'T LIKE EITHER OF THESE, TOOK A QUICK BRAKE INTO THE KITCHEN TO END FAST AND GOT ANOTHER OPTION THAT'S MUCH, MUCH BETTER. LETTING SUGAR ACT HEROICALLY]

Option 3: sugar shows up
Battle
Torr TAKEN
Sugar then rides with Legs to rescue. Heads them off, uses and fails. So spikes are alive. Silverfish. Can't let them touch flesh or life, they come to life. So she's riding to save him. Humm. Like that. She sees them, tells Legs to get back! Then realizes SM is in the field, the gauntlet probably on his hand. Cut, she's in those clothes, galloping along, people dashing out of the way.
Goes in
Torr's POV

GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Name of spikes:
• Hagman's Teeth
• Silver Teeth
• Witch's Teeth
• Dragon's Teeth
• Hag Teeth
• Unravel
• Raveler's Teeth
• Ravel Teeth
• Wrigglers
•

Why aren't there more? Because of cost and skill. To make, it takes weeks for first step of process.

They unravel a man, unstitch the seams.

One goes into a DM when it's knocked aside--we see the effects.

-----------------------------------------
Take 2
So SM comes in
Torr is found
Sm reaction--where are they? Here, but gone
Set up a watch
Questions Torr--the creature etc.
See the Hag's teeth, has a gauntlet to work with it.
They wait. Nothing.
Then Dreadman comes, they're dead.
Shegom? Hiding something
He goes out
Creature drops down behind him, between him and his serpent (silver and skin and flashing, but we only see it later) MORE HUMAN, SOLID, THE COLOR OF DIRT AND BLUE STONE
Knocks away Hag's teeth. Hits SM, sends him flying.
Argoth goes and gets them, holds them.
Leaf turns, brings out sword. Hacks off arm. Stabs. Choked to death, raised up. Brings down sword to decapitate, nothing. Then Hunger grabs him.
Leaf calls out
SM comes
Leaf killed
SM--I see you now (some name, thief)
Stone, huge pins him to the side of the hill. He wrestles it off, casts it back with more force.
Charges, wrestle (calling for his spikes, clansman, spikes)
Hurls the Giant
Reaches into the thing, punches hole in chest, laughs, I've got it now. Thing reaches up, SM begins to scream, tries to pull away, calls wind, breaks away, Hunger jumps into wind after him...
Drops down, thud
Argoth holding them (crying, crying his eyes out), Torr can't get him to move, he's there at the mouth of the cave, on knees, hugging.
Gathers up Hogan AND TORR TAKEN. Casts aside Hag's Teeth, one hits a DM and takes him apart. Sugar is there to witness
POV SWITCH
Sugar gets stuff (cut)
Sugar then rides with Legs to rescue. Heads them off, uses and fails. So spikes are alive. Silverfish. Can't let them touch flesh or life, they come to life. So she's riding to save him. Humm. Like that. She sees them, tells Legs to get back! Then realizes SM is in the field, the gauntlet probably on his hand. Cut, she's in those clothes, galloping along, people dashing out of the way.
Goes in
Torr's POV