posted
Oh, I also agree that it isn't our responsibilty to curb our discussions based on the possible presence of minors. We aren't a porn site, or anywhere near it. It's generally requested that posters on F&F declare whether their posts contain something that might be offensive to some of the adults. That means that, really, we're an awfully clean site. In any case, as has been pointed out, anybody, whatever their age, can, and has always been able to, read anything anyone posts. An age limit on posters would have no effect on that whatsoever.
[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited June 17, 2005).]
posted
Well, I'm older than anyone who's posted his/her age so far. I might be annoying because I used a lot of hackneyed phrases and sound trite a good deal of the time. It probably won't get me kicked off the forum, but it may annoy some people just as much as "i LiKe u 2." (Or whatever it is they do.)
Posts: 150 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Oh, right. I'm 51. I used to watch Walt Disney when it was still in black and white. (Even after it was in color, I watched it in black and white, since we didn't have a color tv.)
[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited June 17, 2005).]
quote:I'm not actually keeping score, but I believe we have a few writers who can claim all of the above distinctions. Not all of them post regularly, though.
posted
Me and who else? I'm 57. I think. My subconscious stopped counting at 23 and since then I've had to do the math. Except on the "0" years. Those I seem to know.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Actually, Kolona, I thought of a third person after my post, but I haven't seen the other two post anything for maybe a month or more. So you and I might be at the top.
Of course, those are only chronological years. I can tell from your posts that you, like me, are still young at heart. To be honest, I feel like an imposter when someone calls me "a man." Can't people tell I'm still just a kid? (Ignore the expanding bald area.)
posted
I put in my vote for not changing a thing. We've had various kinds come through Hatrack's Workshop and, between KDW and the other rational members, we've had a pretty peaceful board. I don't feel age is an issue for reasons which have already been stated.
I do feel a bit uncomfortable now regarding some of the questions I've asked in the recent past. But I can't think of any topic we've discussed that has been immature in nature, and so maybe we've helped the young'uns see things from a more mature perspective. If so, discussing these things like mature adults has probably helped the kids more than we realize.
As has already been stated, I don't have any control over who reads what is posted here because it is a public forum.
What Jon (bladeofwords) remembers is when he signed up for a group and answered my sign-up question, "Are you age 18 or older?" with "no." I talked to him about what is expected of people in groups and why we don't encourage those under 18 to join Hatrack groups.
Since we're not doing groups that way any more (if you want a group, you are expected to organize it yourself from people you get to know here on the forum), I don't use any sign-up forms, so I don't know who is under 18 and who is 18 and older.
Hoptoad, I want to assure you that we still don't encourage people under 18 to join this forum. In fact, for the record, I want to encourage those under 18 who are interested in writing to go to websites like Alpha:
quote:My deepest darkest fear is that this workshop will go the way of the Young Writer's Workshop. Immaturity pervaded over there and the abuses kept the mature ones from being able to participate in ANY meaningful way.
In regards to that, I hereby give permission to any and every participant on this forum to ignore any other participant who does not behave in an appropriate manner. In other words, "Do not feed the Energy Creature" that may show up from time to time.
(Survivor, much as you might like to think it, I don't consider you an Energy Creature, okay? )
And rest assured that if such people do not amend their behavior, they will find themselves very unwelcome here.
All we ask is that everyone be polite and respectful to each other, and that you all remember what we're here for: to improve our writing and learn from each other.
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited June 20, 2005).]
posted
I'd like to make a comment - just because this discussion started out with a mention of Matthew by name - Matthew is participating in a group I'm in, and has been conducting himself in a completely mature and honorable manner. He's polite, he is participatory. He's a little green still and not yet confident in his own skills, but we've all been through that stage. I think he's progressing quickly and I'm glad to have him in our group. I'm happy to encourage teens who are serious about improving their writing skills to participate on this forum.
I've noticed that the kids we get with flip attitudes usually breeze in and out of here in a few weeks. Then we don't hear any more from them. It's sort of annoying to keep them from being too pesky - like swatting at mosquitos. But it does no serious harm. It's just the price we pay for having a public forum, and I think the benefits far outweigh the hazards.
The difficult thing about working with teens is that they are usually lacking in the basics. Their spelling and grammar need work, and those of us who do critiques for them end up spending far more time on their critiques than we might on an adults - simply because there are more technical malfunctions. The other difficulty is that they cannot always offer a full critique because they lack the skills to detect POV problems or similar things.
But I am pleased to help younger writers along. After all, why is this website here? I imagine OSC went out of his way to arrange for us to have a place to meet, share, a moderator to keep us all on track, simply so that we can learn and grow as writers. He didn't HAVE to do this. I'm guessing that it's part of his personal mission, from what I can see, to encourage writers like us.
I've already learned a tremendous amount from participating here. I see my contribution to helping the younger writers on this forum as a way to pay the favor "forward."
posted
oh. and for the record... I'm 48, and I, too remember TV back in the days before color. What an exciting thing it was to go to my aunt's house and wait anxiously for the commercial so we could see the NBC peacock in color!!!
Posts: 2026 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Go away for the weekend and things get wayy ahead of you.
I have a few thoughts.
1. There is no way to actually monitor who is what age. I am 28. I am married, expecting my first child in November, I'm 5'6 and I'm a brunette. But I could tell you that I'm 18, blonde, single, looking, and looking like a model for that matter. Heck, how do you even know I'm 28 and pregnant? You just have my word on it. Maybe I've created a vivid online hallucination for myself.
2. Everyone who said that maturity and age are not related is entirely correct. In fact, I do remember my teenage years (at least somewhat) and honestly, I was always older than my age. It doesn't have to do with what books you read (I enjoyed both Baby Sitter's Club and Nancy Drew and am not ashamed of it). The maturity shift between teenager and adult is subtle, hard to isolate, and some people never make it. It has to do, in part, with setting aside teenage fables such as, "Yes, it will happen to others but not to ME. I can drive drunk and it'll be fine." and "Others aren't able to follow their dreams but of course, I will." They also have a false sense of immortality prior to this maturity shift, which can happen at almost any age or not at all. BUT it does tend to happen (on the average) around the legal age of maturity. Now, I have a personal suspicion that the legal age of maturity drives the maturity shift rather than the maturity shift driving the legal age of maturity, but that's just my opinion.
3. I mentioned the legal age of maturity earlier. That means two significant things. First, it is an average time that a maturity shift occursin reality. Second, whether or not the maturity shift has occured, it represents an age at which I can't get in trouble with your parents for what I say to you. Frankly, I wish adults would be more open with teenagers as I think they can handle far more than we give them credit for (whether or not they made that maturity shift) but I'm only going to have my kids to mess up.
To sum up: Age doesn't matter as much as maturity but it is the best guideline we can use, especially as it lines up with a significant change in legal status. But in the end, you can tell me you're 50 as easily as 15 so nobody's going to stop anyone from posting or reading here. Conduct yourself as an adult and I'll never know.
quote:The maturity shift between teenager and adult is subtle, hard to isolate, and some people never make it.
True. Really, adults are often no more mature than children at times. We've all seen this at work, and we've all had our bad days. I'm not sure I've ever really grown up, but at some point in my life I started taking responsibility for my own actions.
I used to get irate when people called me "kid" when I was a teenager and a young man. I believed then I was more mature than other kids. I wasn't, but I didn't realize that until I was in my late twenties, probably. But I never got along with kids my age, and I always gravitated towards older kids and adults. They, bless their hearts, had far more patience with me than I do now with other kids.
posted
It might be enlightening if we were to post a one-sentence definition of what it means to each of us to be an adult.
Having raised three teenagers (and we all survived--yeah!), I would say that an adult is someone who realizes that you don't have to stay up until 2am in order to have fun.
posted
See, I was never a "teenager". I never had the idea that I was different from everyone else until experience proved this to be the case. When I was younger, I really believed that humans collectively could tell me something important about who and what I was and would be.
So I have no definition of "adult" aside from the biological definition of the term, an organism that has become capable of reproduction. Which is entirely unconnected with being a rational and sentient being.
posted
I think that holding your wants and needs at the same importance as everyone else's (not less) and treating others as just as important as yourself, is what makes one an adult.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:"Do not feed the Energy Creature" that may show up from time to time.
(Survivor, much as you might like to think it, I don't consider you an Energy Creature, okay? )
That's good, because I feed him pretty often.
Caring about others needs would imply that you know what they want. If you're wrong, they smile politely and then write emails about you to people they trust. So I like bladeofwords' definition better.
I think being an adult means having some space between the impulse to do something and actually doing it, wherein one evaluates whether it is a good idea. For the average person, this doesn't actually happen until they are about 25. Of course, a lot of people can mimic the effect by just putting a lid on their impulses.
posted
Oh, I agree, to assume the needs of others would be impolite and intrusive. And no one should let people walk all over them because they feel like their needs aren't important.
I'm talking more about specific instances where you place your wants on hold to help someone who needs something. Sometimes those we know (and even strangers) do ask us for help. In my opinion, a sign of maturity is that when you are confronted with this sort of situation, you take the time to help, even though it may not be the thing you want to do.
Examples: You see a person who needs to merge on the highway. Even though you are in a hurry, you respect their need and don't crowd them out. (Sadly, you later notice that their car is smoking badly and covers yours with a thin coating of oil.) Or As a parent, you put your child's need for a new coat in front of your need for another pair of sneakers. (But those new Nike's are so cool.) Or Again, as a parent, you go to a crappy job everyday so you can provide for the needs of your family. (So much for my desire to be a beach bum.) Or You spend a weekend helping a friend move across town (and up three flights of stairs, cause the freight elevator is broken) even though you'd rather be fishing, golfing, singing in the barber shop quartet, etc. Or You climb out of bed at 5am to take an elderly neighbor to the grocery store before you go to work. (Even though she ends up only buying lotto tickets and beer.) Or Instead of going home to watch TV at the end of the day, you volunteer to read to kids at your local library. Or You take the time to read someone's story, even though you could just ignore it and only work on your own. (Which seems like a waste because they might be a newbie that later disappears and never returns.)
I admit that this type of behavior does not make a person a complete adult, but it is, in my opinion, a high indicator of maturity, or at least character.
I guess I'm a bit of an optimist, but I think there are plenty of folks here that have been in at least one of these situations, and even though it was a pain, they still helped.
posted
Hmmm...If I don't want to help someone, I don't help. There are a lot of people in this world that I don't want to help, because they want to do things I regard as being bad or at least unworthy of my assistance.
If something is a good thing to do, then it doesn't matter whether anyone else wants you to do it. At least, it doesn't matter to me.
I always have a space between the impulse to do something and the act, and I usually use the space to at least consider whether it's a good idea. But there tend to be overriding considerations, so I do a lot of things that I know are bad ideas.
posted
Hi rickfisher I knew what you meant also, but wanted to be sure the new folks didn't take it as an OK for disrespect. Particularly since I hear that was a major problem on the young writers board. Advice from another crit group was "crit the story, not the genre; crit the writing, not the writer. Your job is to help the subber write his or her story, not the story you would write given the same info." Critters, particularly new critters, should keep in mind that writing is subjective. A crit is your opinion. It isn't LAW, hehe. You may not like a particular story, style or voice, but others may love it. So offer your suggestions as just that, suggestions. A crit should be an offer of help, not a judgement. Meenie
Posts: 109 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Oy, adults huh? I'm 54 and a female, and I feel 18 if any of that means anything. I think if anyone considers themself as being completely mature, or having learned all they need to know, they're probably pretty immature. A person who thinks they're completely mature and knows it all is putting themselves above others, which, OMG, is IMMATURE! I always want to seek and learn, it's a big part of growing and I want to continue to grow as a person as long as I live (and hopefully beyond!) Most people tend to think of themselves as mature at whatever age they're at, then later, with delight and chagrin, discover how much more mature they've become since. Meenie
[This message has been edited by Meenie (edited June 23, 2005).]
posted
An adult is someone who can usually resist an impulse even though they want to act on it.
Most teens think everything is critical, and the world will end if it doesn't happen as they think it should. They will act on most of their impulses whether it is right or wrong.
posted
I'm kinda new, but the collective feeling seems to be worry over what is said, but it was already mentioned that you can't keep people from reading it cause it's open for anyone to read. I completely agree with that. What I wanted to add was that I am in the Navy and have met plenty of people over the age of 18 that would probably make most of you cringe to listen to. The age doesn't only matter going down, it matters going up too. In addition to that, I started writing when I was 14. I had no website to go to cause there a 101 stupid little everything-is-a-compliment and no real feedback websites. If I had been to a site like this at that age, I wouldn't be 24 and still trying to write that first novel. I probably would have finished it by now. Instead, I rewrote every year because my maturity level changed and I realized that things that made sense last year were completely inconceivable or just stupid. It would have been nice to know those things about 100 pages earlier than I figured them out. The real young writers will benefit greatly. The ones that it's fleeting fetish for will pass by anyway. What's the worst that'll happen?
Posts: 10 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I have not wrote anything I wouldn't want a young teen to read on this board yet, but my book does contain several references I might not be sure if they were comfortable reading in an uncompleted manner (abuse survival stories are not pretty).
Also, I know my grammar and spelling were better 25 years ago, when I was a teen. I certainly read books I am not sure I would recommend to a young teen (especially Jean Auel).
I know my brain has been attacked by a variety of illnesses, and I cannot comprehend abbreviations at all. I like coming here. Some of the critiques I have received have been very helpful, others more vague. Sadly, I tend to be a direct person, and when something needs to be critiqued, it helps to give an example of how to correct it. Sometimes, just a notation of which word or sentence is wrong is really helpful as well.
I truly hope I can continue to write and get all my stories written before I go blind, or my brain leaves me completely! Sad to say, for someone who is 32. It doesn't help that when people see me they think I am 16 and healthy. I was healthy at 16, never after.
posted
To be an adult - when you realize life is not fair, you don't desrve anything, you have to earn it and that the guy next door has the right to sleep at 11pm despite your desire to play music at full volume.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Well, I'm 16 years old, yet I don't forsee any problems with my membership here--I've been told I'm a good writer and I won't come in here like an immature brat who wants attention. If I want attention, I'll just write really well. That's what makes sense to me. But I will admit, I am far different than most (about 75%) of the people my age--that's not being boastful, that's telling the truth. So in my opinion, there shouldn't be a method to restrict those under 18, just a method to warn those who may violate the wishes of others. Truly, I believe that if you are here, you are here for one of two reasons:
1. You REALLY want to get publsihed and take this entire situation very seriously
or
2. You REALLY enjoy contributing your knowledge to others who are succeptable to reason #1.
So in summary of my most humble and possibly misinformed opinion, age doesn't matter when character and maturity are concerned--don't judge a book by its cover (or its age) Thank you for reading my rant... haha.
posted
So far, I'm thinking yanos has come closest to describing what makes an adult. I'm afraid that selfishness vs. caring about other people hasn't got the first thing to do with adulthood or maturity. Some kindergarteners care very much but I'm still not going to consider them an adult. Heck, half the teenagers I've ever known go through this self-righteous "let's make the world an ideal place" kind of thing and that doesn't make them adults either. Moreover, I know plenty of selfish adults (by age and by maturity) that do think they are more important than anyone else. And you know what? I agree with them. It's not even a matter of selfishness, it's just a common sense realization that you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of the rest of the world or what use are you?
If I had to use one word to describe the difference between an adult and non-adult it would be this:
responsibility
Adults understand that they need a job to pay the bills and survive.
Adults understand that they have to live in a society with many other people and that those other people have rights and feelings, too.
Adults know that just because they want something, they are not necessarily going to get it.
posted
You know, the first two have not been true for all adults in all times and places, and may not be true for even most adults in our own time and place.
The third may not be true at all, depending on your philosophic/religious outlook. I personally believe that we all, inevitably, will eventually get what we truly want. Which is why my own philosophical system stresses examining and controling desires so heavily.
posted
You could reword Christine's first point as "Adults know that they cannot expect to be provided for without contributing to society"; may sound a bit dangerously communist to some readers, but I've always believed that you have to contribute, in order to receive. Any society that ultimately wants to run stably in the long term cannot afford to carry people who are capable of contributing but choose not to.
I'm not sure when Christine's second definition has not been true. Maybe (if you believe in the Christian creation story) Adam, prior to Eve, but that's kind of limited.
I think Christine's third point is one that's very important as well, and indeed is a recurrent theme in The Accidental Witch. Ultimately, you have to accept that, the way the world is, wanting is not enough. Sometimes you're lucky and get things without working for them, sometimes you're unlucky and fail to get things no matter how hard you work. That's just how life is.
Survivor, your philosophy sounds intriguing. I'm reminded very much of the aphorism "Be careful what you wish for"...
posted
When have people not had to work for a living and be able to live with other people? Perhaps my phrasing was a bit modern, but the principle remains.
And just because not everyone of a mature age do not adhere to my definition of adult, does not mean it isn't sound. I believe we've already established that many people never grow up.
Also, they were just examples. My point was the one word: responsibility.
posted
Yeah, that's why I keep retracting, because it's really a tangent - we're talking about here and now, not some grand theory of society that I keep wandering off into.
yikes, now Christine retracted! Just me trying not to get the conversation off track, is all. I'm not offended, didn't think anyone else was; I just kept going off in different directions that are maybe interesting but not really relevant.
posted
[Note to Kathleen: Please lock this thread. Thanks.]
Once upon a time a writer named Dakota started a thread about young people on Hatrack. She posed the simple idea that members of Hatrack might be served if they offered tips to new young Hatrackians that would help them (and all of us) transition into the Hatrack community with greater ease.
Unfortunately, tangents happened, and only 2.6 pieces of such advice were offered. Therefore, Dakota requests that She-who-must-be-obeyed locks this thread. It's really getting entirely out of hand and no one is learning anything.
posted
By the way, the comment I made was only intended to be thought provoking. I'm sorry if it was otherwise.
I just meant that paying the bills and survival aren't necessarily dependent on having a job. You (or at least I) can survive without having any bills to pay, and even if you did need to pay bills, you only need money, not a job. This is truth, whether or not it is something that you can be an "adult" while knowing it.
On a slightly different note, only a slender majority (if a majority at all) of people that have lived on this world have had to live in a society with many other people...and while usually those people did have feelings, they didn't always have rights. Sad but true, that last bit. You can decide whether the first bit is sad or not for yourself.
And the last is just a matter of personal philosophy and belief.
I'm not claiming to be an adult or anything (except in the biological sense, and even that could be questioned...I haven't reached my final form yet, after all). Merely pointing out that some definitions...don't apply universally.
I thought the discussion was edifying and interesting, and am sorry if anyone found it distressing. Really, even more sorry than I am at having missed the good bits
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I'm 57. I think. My subconscious stopped counting at 23 and since then I've had to do the math. Except on the "0" years. Those I seem to know.
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