Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » POV

   
Author Topic: POV
Silver3
Member
Member # 2174

 - posted      Profile for Silver3   Email Silver3         Edit/Delete Post 
This is going to be my day for questions (yipee, my Internet connection is back ).
I have a short story which is in 1st person and set in a secondary world.
I never considered it before, but how do you establish whether the main character is male or female? (before, I was lucky because the narrator had a wife, so that tends to solve the problem in a hurry).

Posts: 1075 | Registered: Sep 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
RaymondJohn34
Member
Member # 2595

 - posted      Profile for RaymondJohn34   Email RaymondJohn34         Edit/Delete Post 
Hey there, Silver.
I never really thought of that before either....
But my first idea would be to make a comment about the opposite sex that would make the reader know what gender I was.
I once started reading a story that was in first person and it was going ok, but during the reading, I got kinda lost because the narrator started talking about two lovers, both being men, so I believed that the narrator was a woman....I don't have the knack for reading between the lines, so you can guess my shock when I found out all the characters (Narrator, Lovers, Intimate Friends, Bosses with other than work on the mind...), were all men....
My suggestion is to like I said, a comment about the opposite sex, let the narrator describe him/herself a little bit.., maybe in some dialogue with another character with that character making a comment about the narrator's gender....
Whatever you do, do it soon. LOL
Raymond John

[This message has been edited by RaymondJohn34 (edited July 08, 2005).]


Posts: 16 | Registered: May 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 1646

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
It's going to be different in every story, but it is important so be sure not to overlook it. In fact, it will often drive a reader to distraction if they don't know up-front. What's the first thin people ask about a new baby? Boy or girl?

I can't really think of a list of suggestions to work from. Every story and sitaution and character is different. If you can squeeze their gender-specific names in there it helps. If you can mention an opposite-sexed wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend/lover it can help. If they're gay, you're going to have to work extra hard because going, "Surprise, they were gay and now don't you feel the ass for making assumptions?" is a cheap, unworthy trick.

If you could give us a few more details about the specific situation it might help, but I've just about never seen this revelation happen the same way twice. If I know the author's gender, I start with that assumption, BTW.


Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
EricJamesStone
Member
Member # 1681

 - posted      Profile for EricJamesStone   Email EricJamesStone         Edit/Delete Post 
> If I know the author's gender, I start
> with that assumption, BTW.

I do, too. I think most readers do, so that gives you a little more leeway if the character is the same gender as people would assume from the name you're published under.

There was a good thread on this subject over a year ago, which can be foundhere.


Posts: 1517 | Registered: Jul 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Silver3
Member
Member # 2174

 - posted      Profile for Silver3   Email Silver3         Edit/Delete Post 
The situation is the story "The Empath" in F&F. The main character is female but has no attachments (no boyfriend, no husband, no parents). She has a scene in which she speaks (for about three seconds) to another woman, the wife of the deceased, and then she goes to examine the corpse.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Sep 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
wbriggs
Member
Member # 2267

 - posted      Profile for wbriggs   Email wbriggs         Edit/Delete Post 
Something ate my post. I'll try again.

This could be something to really have fun with. There are lots of ways. OK, you can't use name or pronouns.

* Stereotypically male or female behavior (foundry work, plowing with an ox, sewing, if it's a fantasy world)
* Have him scratch his beard
* Have her be mother or sister
* Have him find a woman attractive
* Have her think about being beautiful, or have him think about being handsome -- there are some words that mostly go with one sex
* Have her think about the way men are. Or have him think about the way men are, and follow this with "We ..." Sort of like you can hint that a character's non-white by having him see a "white man" rather than just a "man." (If he's white, it might be "another white man.")
* Have the character be in a group, or thinking about a group, that's all one sex; usually you won't have a group that's all one sex except one (and if so, s/he will be thinking about being different)

Most of these are stereotypical rather than 100% accurate, but if you don't correct the stereotype, I'll assume it's correct.


Posts: 2830 | Registered: Dec 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
kkmmaacc
Member
Member # 2643

 - posted      Profile for kkmmaacc           Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe you could have her experience some sort of prejudice because of her gender: "I could see from his face he didn't approve of female empaths working murder cases."

-K.


Posts: 92 | Registered: Jun 2005  | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
I always prefer that first person stories be framed as first person accounts, and a proper first person account always gives the relevant details about the narrator right up front. That's one reason I prefer them, but probably the most trivial, all things considered.

Sex isn't always a relevant issue. When it isn't, leave it alone. When it is, don't be coy. It's that simple. If your narrator is a woman, just have her say so. She knows that anyone reading the story won't know unless she tells them.


Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  | Report this post to a Moderator
Silver3
Member
Member # 2174

 - posted      Profile for Silver3   Email Silver3         Edit/Delete Post 
No, she knows they will know, because she has a first name that is clearly identified as female within the world she lives in. The readers, however, don't know this.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Sep 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Silver3
Member
Member # 2174

 - posted      Profile for Silver3   Email Silver3         Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, regarding the topic EJS directed me to...(thanks, it made for interesting reading, and gave me a whole load of new problems )
How long do I have to establish gender? I can insert a ref in the third scene, but the problem is that none of the activities in the first two scenes are characteristic of women. Is that too late?

Posts: 1075 | Registered: Sep 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
HSO
Member
Member # 2056

 - posted      Profile for HSO   Email HSO         Edit/Delete Post 
One way to develop the gender is to have a conversation between two characters right away and have them use each other's names. This isn't always possible for every story, but having dialogue near the start helps a lot. My favorite thing to do is include subtle clues in the narrative, skewed towards a masucline or feminine viewpoint. Men and women really do view things differently.

And yet, as noted above, there are lots of ways to develop the gender. Survivor's idea of having the narrator introduce himself or herself is valid and a good one, and it was the preferred method of starting a first-person story during the Victorian era (I read a lot of books off Gutenberg).

Really, unless you're deliberately withholding the gender for a specific reason (Christine wrote a short story that did this and it worked brilliantly, for me anyway), then you should be telling us almost immediately nearly all of the relevant details about the narrator. We need to know who we are following along, and this will help us care for your character.

My advice is don't wait until the third scene, tell us in the first, and give us a clue or two on the first two manuscript pages.


Posts: 1520 | Registered: Jun 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
MaryRobinette
Member
Member # 1680

 - posted      Profile for MaryRobinette   Email MaryRobinette         Edit/Delete Post 
I dropped a line in one of my shorts once in the first paragraph that was something like "No wonder my mamma always called me a silly girl." Otherwise there was nothing to tell you that my character was a woman.

Would something like that work?


Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Silver3
Member
Member # 2174

 - posted      Profile for Silver3   Email Silver3         Edit/Delete Post 
Hum. it might work. Good point.
That said, I went back to my books of short stories (mainly the anthologies of WOTF), and I checked. In most of the stories I saw, the gender was not specified or made clear in any way until the third or fourth page. One story even had no gender indication till the end, only the main character's name (which was not really indicative of the gender).

[This message has been edited by Silver3 (edited July 10, 2005).]


Posts: 1075 | Registered: Sep 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
EricJamesStone
Member
Member # 1681

 - posted      Profile for EricJamesStone   Email EricJamesStone         Edit/Delete Post 
How many of them had a narrator of a different gender from the apparent gender of the author?
Posts: 1517 | Registered: Jul 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Silver3
Member
Member # 2174

 - posted      Profile for Silver3   Email Silver3         Edit/Delete Post 
None as far as I can tell. (sigh). I guess the trouble is that since my name is French, most people won't associate a gender with it. Guess I'll just have to establish gender really quick.

[This message has been edited by Silver3 (edited July 10, 2005).]


Posts: 1075 | Registered: Sep 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Spaceman
New Member
Member # 9240

 - posted      Profile for Spaceman           Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe using the word "she" would help.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010  | Report this post to a Moderator
Survivor
Member
Member # 213

 - posted      Profile for Survivor   Email Survivor         Edit/Delete Post 
First person, remember?

If it matters, just say it. It's that simple.


Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999  | Report this post to a Moderator
Spaceman
New Member
Member # 9240

 - posted      Profile for Spaceman           Edit/Delete Post 
First person, right. They don't call me spaceman for nothing...
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010  | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2