posted
I was shocked when I met this forum and found that adverbs have been given the boot from writing. I have to admit I was a bit angry, as I work hard to make sure I use enough descriptive words.
I am reading a book "The First Five Pages" and it gives all adjectives and adverbs the boot as well. I guess I grew up in a time when adjectives were very important, as was descritive writing. So, modernly speaking, how do you describe events, places, things, and people without the descriptive words? What do you use in place of adjectives and adverbs in writing?
First of all, keep in mind that adverbs and adjectives are part of the language and have their place. Sometimes, a sentence does not have the same umph without them. The important thing to note from the advice, though, is that nouns and verbs are more powerful descriptors. They are clearer, evoke more in the reader, and are more active.
Didn't we do a writing exercise at some point in which we all tried to rewrite a pargraph riddled with adverbs and adjectives? I thought it was a great exercise, but I neither remember where or when that happened.
We could do another. The best explanation for how to do this is through example.
posted
Yes, minimialism. Sad, I will miss the descriptiveness of classic novels. Though, it does pahse in and out over generations. I think there has to be a way to cut sentences to just a few words without leaving out the descriptions. It doesn't help that I am so used to writing descriptively, someone could look at my writing and say it is riddled with adjectives, and I would say "Where?"
Posts: 92 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Another thing to say about modern description (which, btw, I'm a big fan of).
John spoke angrily.
isn't as vivid as
John slammed the cup down so hard coffee slopped out of it. "It's cold!," he yelled, and shook a finger in Marcie's face. "I swear to God, if you get one more thing wrong, I'll make you wish you'd never met me!"
That is, show me with action, not description -- and that usually means more nouns and verbs relative to modifiers.
posted
It's not that modernists boot all adverbs and adjectives, they just don't slather their prose with them. A few well-placed, perfectly used modifiers shine in a way they wouldn't if lost in a sea of their cousins.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I just ran across this paragraph via a link from the website Fiction Factor:
quote:Eliminate all unnecessary adjectives from your verse. Adjectives slow the reader down. It makes them feel like they’ve just stumbled over a big, gray, hard, lengthy, endless, tiring rock.
quote:"Minimalist" is an adjective. Instead of "the minimalist movement," just say "minimalism."
Why is "minimalism" such a long word?
Adjectives and adverbs have their place and it very much depends what you are trying to convey. When you are trying to convey atmosphere you may actually WANT the reader to read a section more slowly, and loading it with a higher proportion of adjectives and adverbs canm help in doing that. In Dorothy Dunnett's "The Ringed Castle" (fifth book of her "Lymond" series) there's a descriptive section about Moscow, which is just an absolute welter of images. It's like standing under a waterfall, but it's absolutely brilliant; it stuns you, the exact way the town is supposed to stun the viewers. But the same technique would just be frustrating if you were dealing with an action sequence, where you want the reader to zip through quickly and get the adrenalin rush of excitement.
A lot of younger authors do fall into the trap of trying to use adjectives and adverbs on almost every noun and verb, because they think it gives more colour and detail. Generally, it's necessary to unlearn that, and find out how to convey what you want with minimal writing; then you can decide when and where it's appropriate to start slotting the adverbs and adjectives back in again.
If you want to study how to convey maximum information through minimal word use, study song-writing. There are some extremely talented songwriters who can convey an enormous amountt of information in a few verses, that may only add up to a couple of hundred words (if that), yet still draw a magnificently detailed picture. As someone who tends to the verbose, I'm in awe of some of these guys.
I think, though I'm no grammar expert, that in this case, 'over' is an adverb.
Yep, it was a shock to me to when I was told to 'stop loading it up on the adjectives and adverbs, and opt instead for descriptive action verbs'. I'm trying, I just don't think I'm doing a good job at it.
posted
I think this ties into having faith in the imagination of the reader. They can usually fill in the details, and if a description is not pertintant to the plot, than the writer has to weight if that description is important.
posted
It's like there are two conversations going on here. One conversation for people that equate descriptive language with adjectives and adverbs, and a separate conversation for people who understand that nouns and verbs also describe things.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Sorry, from what I undersatnd - Survivor - nouns name things, verbs are action, and adjectives and adverbs are describing nouns and verbs.
Posts: 92 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Some nouns and verbs are stronger and more vivid than others, and can convey description.
From GZ's example above:
He walked quickly.
becomes...
He strode. He hustled. He trotted.
In that case, the verb is conveying a more specific image of how he moved. The alternative verbs suggested are more descriptive than "walked."
Adjectives and adverbs modify nouns and verbs. If the nouns and verbs are strong enough, they don't need to be modified in order to convey the description. Why wear make-up if you're already gorgeous?
I believe over is a preposition, not an adverb. It shows the relationship of the compund noun Michael and Darius to the pronoun he, it does not modify the verb towered.
Prepositions are fine, it's adjectives and adverbs that today's fiction readers hate. Especially adverbs.
Here is the sentence recast with an adverb modifying the verb towered:
He towered menacingly over Michael and Darius.
Gotta love those fiction readers . . . the adverb version is awful!
[This message has been edited by Doc Brown (edited July 26, 2005).]
posted
Caveat: I don't hate adjectives and adverbs; I often find them useful. (I just did: "useful" and "often.") I just don't like them as well as verbs and nouns, which I use more often (eleven times in this paragraph alone).
On a related issue, I keep getting the comment that I don't describe enough. I just say they're in the office, and let them start talking. I introduce a character, John, let you know his age and marital status, and if you want to know what color his eyes and shirt are, you're on your own.
Some people apparently don't like this. I do, though. I'd rather know that Kane's got an alien exploding out of his chest than that his short brown hair fails to hide his pallid complexion.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited July 26, 2005).]
posted
Adverbs and adjectives give more information on the nouns and verbs they're combined with. Often they are not necessary, and should only be used where they are. Overuse of adverbs and ajectives is what people object to. Correct usage is fine. I think even the classic 19th century authors were careful in their use of adverbs.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003
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We're in the same boat. Grammar seemed a tedious subject that seemed to have no pratical application. Until I attempted writing. I remembered nouns, verbs, adjectives, but couldn't rememmber beyond that. Comma placement is still a mystery to me.
posted
If you're having problems with identifying parts of speech, just look up the words in a good dictionary.
I know I've said it before, but all the grammer knowledge I need is in the dictionary.
On a more general note, the adverb/adjective rule is pretty specific to modern English, with it's outrageously huge working vocabulary. If you were writing in many other languages, it would simply be silly to try and eliminate "extraneous" adjectives and adverbs from your work. Most languages don't have hundreds of different words for "to run".
But if you write in English, and rely too much on "ad"-words rather than using the diversity of English itself effectively, you communicate in every line that you don't have a good command of the language.
Still, you do need to strike a balance. You might find the perfect verb for what your character does, but if only a handful of English readers will know what that word means or be able to find it in their desktop dictionary, it might not be the best choice.
posted
Plus, of course, you can make them up. For some people, it must be the ultimate dream, to create a word and then see it adopted into the language (management consultants do this all the time, verbing nouns and coining gibberish phrases, but they don't count as anyone with an iota of sense shuns their horrendous confections).
Shakespeare is often credited with "inventing" a vast number of words, in the sense that their first recorded written existence is in his plays, but in many cases it's likely he was using words that were already in vocal existence but hadn't wandered into print as yet (there being slightly fewer books in those days). Carroll invented a hatful of new words, but threw them all in at once, making their adoption difficult since no-one really knows what "mimsy" or "slithy" meant. He did manage it with "chortle", though - a cross between a chuckle and a snort.
I do have a few obscure words that I trot out from time to time in the hope of rehabilitating them ("leat", for example, is a handy one when you're dealing with a mock-northern-European fantasy world). But there are an awful lot more that have appeared in old dictionaries but never quite cut it.
If there's a language with a wider vocabulary than English (even ignoring technical terms), I'd love to hear about it...
posted
This resource has been cited several times in these forums, but this seems a handy place to remind folks who are interested in word use about it:
posted
Chris, you can usually test whether something is a preposition by trying to fit it into this form: The mouse ran ______ the box. It's not infallible, but if the resulting sentence makes sense, you're probably dealing with a preposition.
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The English language has more words than any other language. I found a site to back this up: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml English has 500,000 words, while German has about 185,000 and French has only 100,000. This is partly because English-speakers like to make new words, and partly because of the history of the English language (what with being a Germanic language infused with French and Latin because of the Normans and Christian monks, respectively).
"English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar." -Unknown
posted
Often times descriptions are pointless and don't add to the story. I enjoy stories that describe points that are important to the story, and not just for the point of describing things (better left for poetry, where it can be done justice).
By details being important to the story, I don't mean like a mystery where everything is a plot element. Instead, where everything says something about the plot, the characters the milieu, or the idea that drive the story.
Sometimes this can be really subtle (which is usually best) but I think the author has to know what he doing. Why is there snow? Why is the room painted white? If there's no reason, then there's probably no reason to mention it.
quote:"English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar." -Unknown
I LOVE that!!!
If you're really interested in a grammar refresher course, try teaching it to a sixth grader. OR you can go here... www.academicbookservices.com ...and search for a middle school or high school level grammar book with exercises and everything. HINT: ABS provides a narrow search. You won't get thousands of entries for books that aren't related to the subject. But after you find a title at ABS, go buy it at Amazon. Much cheaper there.
posted
Whereas description is used for setting and atmosphere it does add to the story. Knowing it is a stormy night may make on difference to the plot but it shows us a side of the characters' world that we can easily relate to. Some level of description is important, not to the storyline but to the reader's involvement in the story.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Sometimes this can be really subtle (which is usually best) but I think the author has to know what he doing. Why is there snow? Why is the room painted white? If there's no reason, then there's probably no reason to mention it.
Does this apply to fantasy stories? If so, I'm sunk! I've quite a few poetic-like descriptions of buildings, landscapes, etc. in my current project. They don't go on for pages (or even paragraphs) but now I'm worried that they're not needed. I mean, what if no one cares how the water ripples in a pool, or what an old oil lamp smells like?
posted
I think that as long as your carefull, these descriptions help the story feel richer, and personally I like usually to know more about something than just he wore a flannel shirt. I think that what we are all trying to say is moderation. That's it. Keep it to what feels balanced, and you'll do all right. I personally think both ways can work.
He looked out over the water. He watched as the water rippled.
Frankly, depending on the story, both work for me.
posted
I began my WIP with a lot of descriptive text to attempt to project my visual image into the mind of the reader. I was told in critique that it was unneeded, and interfered with the story. So I cut waaaaaay back on it. My last round of critiques indicated that I wasn't giving ENOUGH description. I think the bottom line is, give enough to provide a clear thread for the reader to follow, but allow the reader some room to insert their own mental images. They don't need to see your hero with "blonde, wavy hair that looked like flaxen straw" unless it's germaine to the story.
It's a tough balance to achieve. The mark of a skilled writer is when you present just the right amount, so the reader doesn't notice either a lack or an overabundance of description.
posted
In my last finished-enough-to-send-to-market story, in the course of one revision, I tried to take out every word that ended in "ly." I hedged a bit. I left "only," not being able to come up with an adequate way of expressing it. And I also left them all in dialog, figuring anything goes when a character is saying it.
It made for fairly tedious work...but I liked the results enough to consider doing it the next time I reached that stage in a story. (Boy, wouldn't taking them all out of a hundred thousand word novel be soul-draining!)
posted
For a wonderful example of how not to use adjectives and adverbs check out the beginning of the Canadian TV production of Anne of Green Gables - the Sequel where Anne Shirley is reading aloud to herself from one of her stories:
"His foreboding tones... her alabaster brow..."
Aaaarrrrhhhh!!!!
Later Anne learns to drop the purple prose and write uncluttered fiction.
Despite the fact that I sometimes write disturbing stories (like my fragment 'Welcome to Florida') I love movies and TV series like 'Green Gables', 'The Wonder Years' and intelligent date-movies that make you laugh and cry. I guess I like the stuff I wish I could write (Terry Moore's graphic novel series 'Strangers in Paradise') but write what I know I'm good at. If harding-hitting stoires is what my muse comes up with then that's what I roll with. It all comes down to not cheating the story. As for adjectives and adverbs, it's the same: as Elan says it's a question of balance; don't leave it all out if this robs the story and cheats it of the richness it so needs... but at the same time don't do an Anne Shirley! After all, this is the beginning of the 21st not the 20th century.
I accidently found a great way to re-learn your grammar - a foreign language! Whilst learning German a few years back it became necessary for me to re-learn my English grammar before I could get a handle on German grammar.
Try it! It's a great way to kill two birds with one stone: learn a foreign lanugage and get a refresher course in English at the same time!
The great thing is that you need only buy one book. You can pick them up in German, French, Italian and Spanish (these are the four I have; I'm sure this series is available in other languages).
English Grammar for Students of German (1994) by Cecile Zorach & Charlotte Melin, published by The Olivia and Hill Press in the US and by Arnold, a member of the Hodder Headline Group, in the UK in 1999. www.arnoldpublishers.com
Revised editions of this series are readily available and should be easy to search for on Amazon.com.
[This message has been edited by Paul-girtbooks (edited September 13, 2005).]
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