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Author Topic: Appearance Shapeshifters -- How can this be plausible?
autumnmuse
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Okay, I have an idea for a novel about a woman who can change her physical appearance at will. Now, the obvious place for that idea is fantasy, but I'd really like to include some science fiction if at all possible.

Can anyone think of a far-future technology which would give someone that ability?

Let me clarify what I mean. She has the ability to appear old when she is young or young when she is old. She can appear to be male if she chooses to do so, though this requires much more effort so she doesn't typically do so. The difference is that changing her apparent age isn't as big of a change compared to changing her sex. By the same token, she cannot change her physical size, or not by much. She can't choose to be a bear or walrus or something either.

Am I stuck with using fantasy? Or can anyone think of a possible technology that makes this possible?

And it is important to the plot that she be one of a very limited number of people who can do this, so the ability appears magical to those without the technology. People need to not suspect what she is capable of for the plot to work.


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autumnmuse
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Do you think that nanotechnology has this application? Or some type of hologram? Though the problem with the latter is that she won't have actually changed under it, and I would like the transformation to really happen.
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Silver3
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Could she have the possibility to recombine part of her DNA (through nanobots in the nuclei of her cells, for instance)? Supposing every gene in the human body was catalogued, perhaps there would be something that would allow her to "rewrite" the DNA in each of her cells, according to what she wanted (for instance, replace an X chromosome with a Y)? And the more important the changes the more time they take to work (and it's only human genes that she can write, so she can't be a walrus).
The age thing is a problem, though... Controlling the ageing of her cells? That is starting to be a bit much in the same person.
Just a few thoughts.

Edit after seeing the second post: I did think of holograms, but they wouldn't make the changes real.
Nanotechnologies might conceivably be used to achieve a kind of global reprogramming (the only trouble is that you need every cell to change at once or you face rejection problems by the immune system), if you add an array of nano-memories somewhere so that she remembers things from before the change. You could combine them with holograms for the ageing effects.
Or you could be in the real far-future and have the effects of ageing mapped in terms of cells, so the reprogramming could be completed by forcing some cells to commit suicide (there's a technical term for that, but I don't remember it) to age her, or regenerate cells.
But if you include the last kind of control, she is going to be a superwoman (having that kind of control implies you can regenerate cells at will, therefore speed up healing, etc.).
I'd go for a combo nanobots reprogramming nuclei/leds over her body.

[This message has been edited by Silver3 (edited October 20, 2005).]


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mikemunsil
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i think nanobots that entirely cover her exterior, combined with leds, would work
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pantros
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certainly nanotech would be capable of it, controlling hyrdation of her skin, chemical composition of the skin.

Cybernetic subskin implants could alter her bone structure, it might be painful.

sexual organs, same thing. Male and Female anatomy are not too differnt, inflate this, deflate that, turn the other thing inside out...ok, i might have overstepped, sorry.


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autumnmuse
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The change only has to be skin deep. I don't actually need her to change bone structure or even really change sex. Just change the way she appears. But it has to be convincing enough that a man can sleep with her and be sure that she is young, even though she's actually fairly old.

Which probably means some muscular changes, I guess. Though again, nothing too significant. She will have always had a pretty active lifestyle, so she'll be in shape despite her age. But, and this is important to the plot, she won't be able to restore fertility once she is past menopause. The man she marries gets very upset with her because she cannot bear children, but he doesn't know the real reason.

[This message has been edited by autumnmuse (edited October 20, 2005).]


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pantros
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For skin appearance, high-tech oil of olay made from a process that could only be performed once due to rare materials or dangerous power source, or no one person knew the whole formula. Limited supply, using the cream doesnt last forever, etc...

Simply controlling the hydration of the skin can make it fuller, giving a youthful appearance, won't do much for age related freckles and coloration but can reduce wrinkles.

Exactly what the cream can do, though, would be up to you.

How much of an age difference are we looking at? 50-20? 90-25? Once you get past 65ish you would have a hard time managing the bones without high tech medicine. Extermemely Good bones are required to appear as spry as a young woman.

Nanobots are tiny robots so small that they can fit inside a cell and alter the chemical composition as dictated by stimuli. This seems the most versatile option.

[This message has been edited by pantros (edited October 20, 2005).]


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autumnmuse
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Yeah, I think I'll end up going with nanotech. I need the versatility.

But, for a society to have developed nanotech that subtle and effective, I'm not sure how I can keep the ability a secret. I'll have to come up with some reason that only one company has the tech, or something.

Hmm. The whole flavor of my story would have to change quite a bit. I may have to go with fantasy after all. I'm not sure yet.


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franc li
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She could be someone who has a somewhat neutral appearance to begin with and "acts" in order to acheive the rest. Charlize Theron is someone I have found has a creepy ability to disappear into a role. Though I haven't seen her try to do a man before.

She could also be someone who is a different race from the community in which she lives. This sometimes shrouds the characteristics of age and gender, though it usually takes a little push to totally confound things.

Clothes are also fairly important. It might help if she has to spend some time with the sort of person she wishes to imitate right before doing it, like her ability to shift is not entirely within her will to do so, and she sometimes shifts without meaning to. I guess that would be the magic price aspect. There could be a sixth sense element to it. And what happens if she is all alone too long?

I have to say there is a large personal aspect of this for me, being a biracial person and also a middle child I tend to disappear. I've often dreamed of robbing banks. Day dreamed, not real dreamed.

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited October 20, 2005).]


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EricJamesStone
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It's certainly plausible that advanced nanotechnology could change skin, fat, and muscle cells to alter someone's appearance. Even bone could be restructured, although I suspect it would take longer. Just think of it as very small scale cosmetic surgery.

The problem I see is that any society with nanotech that advanced would have lesser included technologies. So while only government spies might have nanites that let them change their appearance at will, the general public would have access to "rejuvenating" nanites, for example. (Considering the amount of money spent on cosmetic surgery and other methods to achieve a more youthful appearance, it is likely that the rejuvenation market would be a driving force behind the development of the kind of technology that would lead to the appearance-altering nanites.)

So while being able to change one's appearance to look like an old person would not be something most people would think about, looking far younger than one's chronological age would be commonplace.

Also, for a society with such technology, menopause would not be a barrier to bearing children.

Of course, you can avoid these problems if the woman is from an advanced tech society, but she's living in a different society that is not aware of the advanced technology.


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pantros
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The technology was outlawed...

The technology was developed by a secret war contractor who went belly up fast when the war didn't happen leaving only the dozen test subjects with no tech support.

There are technologies in the world today that we don't know about because they are still in testing or still government owned or the professor working the project is a paranoid freak.

She could just have been a test subject of a project that was cancelled due to side effects or too expensive, etc..


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Christine
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Just as a thought...you can make the changes even more substantial than you're thinking if you take into account mass and density. Let's take my husband, who is a rock solid 230 lbs. Nobody ever guesses this, not even nurses who weigh people all the time. He's just dense so he doesn't look as heavy as he is.

Think about what would happen if he could (using whatever technology you go with) expand his mass to become less dense or contract it to become more dense. We're not talking infinite size changing ability, but the character could definitely seem a little shorter, taller, fatter, thinner, etc.

With weight distribution you can also create significant illusions of size/mass. As another personal example...when I'm not pregnant, I'm quite curvy. This, too, seems to stump people trying to guess my weight/size. 150 lbs on someone who carries all their weight in their butt can make them look kind of fat but on me it's about as perfect as I get.

I mention this because I think you've got tremendous possibilities here. Can she change the length/thickness of her vocal chords and therefore the sound of her voice?

Subtle changes can make huge differences. I'd consider studying faces, perhaps from an artist's perspective. Maybe even take a drawing class. (Depending upon how serious you are about this project.) See if you can interview a police sketch artist. The curve of the eyebrows, the lines around the lips, the height of the ears...sometimes such subtle changes can completely change everything.

I wouldn't do holograms, although I think you've settled on nanotech. I just wanted to weigh in on that because I think you wouldn't have the range of possibilities and it wouldn't be as fun as having a technology that makes actual changes to appearance.

X-Men did this as "science fiction" in the character of that blue chick whose name I can't remember...the bad guy. They just call it a mutation that allows her to manipulate her own appearance. IF you want to know how NOT to do it...watch that movie. Seriously, though, she managed to change her pupils to pass through an eye scanner. I don't think so! How does she even know what someone else's inner eyes look like? Be careful with realism here. Make some rules and work within them, just as if this were fantasy.

Sounds like a fun project. Good luck.


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Christine
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quote:
Also, for a society with such technology, menopause would not be a barrier to bearing children.

Can you explain this a little more? Women need more than rejuvination to be able to bear children. They need more egges. We get all we're ever going to get when we're born and they don't last forever. Could nanotech make more eggs? I could see it extending our fertility by keeping the ones we have from going bad (which is another problem).

This is slightly related to my current novel, which is a selfish reason I'm asking, but I'm curious what your take on this is.


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Robert Nowall
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It seems the discussion revolves on the technology to make shapeshifting happen. What if it's not techonlogy, but genetics? Suppose it's something that happens because it's natural for it to happen, a survival trait?
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Christine
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That would go along with the X-Men/mutation idea I brought up, but I reiterate: don't do it the way they did. It was totally unbelievable.
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Corky
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I think the mutant's name is Mystique.
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franc li
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Women have hundreds more eggs than they need. they don't go into menopause from running out of eggs.

I'm not entirely sure why they do go into menopause. I think probably because having non-bearing grandmothers in a social group increased survival for the group overall.

It was also probably part of the physiological cost of monthly estruss, rather than semi-annual. If I had to guess.

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited October 20, 2005).]


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Elan
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Let me add my 2 cents worth. Shapeshifting is something that is considered real within certain shamanistic traditions in our modern world. The works of Carlos Casteneda about the nagual sorcerer, Don Juan Matus, being a case in point. These sorcerers don't claim to go to an alternate mental state, the claim is that they actually shift shape.

Here's a link to literature about shamanism.
http://www.shamanlinks.net/Shamanic_Books.htm

While shamanism is an ancient tradition of healing and spiritual investigation, it's an interesting topic when it butts up against what we deem to be 'hard science.' The concept behind shapeshifting in shamanism is that the world is created by our minds and our thoughts. If you think you are a crow, and hold that thought with your entire being, you will metamorph into a crow.

Is that possible? Metaphysics maintains that "thoughts are things." The book A Course In Miracles says that we can LITERALLY move mountains with our thoughts. Quantum physics has demonstrated that the thoughts of the observer affect the outcome of the experiment. These concepts can be used in either fantasy or sci-fi.


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franc li
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Eh, the mountains are already moving at pretty high rates of speed.

In all seriousness, I think the movement of mountains that occurs is at the will of a greater being. I think there have been individuals this being has trusted to move mountains, but on average most of them actually given the power didn't really feel that was a great thing to do with it. That is to say, if you move a mountain it's probably going to cause some seismic disruptions.

P.P.S. I guess in a similar fashion, the shapes that each of us have at this time are some balance of our wills and the laws of the universe and inherited influences either behavioral or genetic.

P.P.P.S. I think a fantasy setting would be more interesting for being able to change genders, since the future setting is likely to be even more equal opportunity than the present.

P4S Another thought is she can make these changes, but there is a high cost, like she has to sleep for a week after (I think this would apply whether it was a fantasy spell type thing or nanites). Another model is the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde effect, where the character builds up tolerance to the potion/technology. Also, I can pop my ears voluntarily, which in my experience is a strange talent to have mastered. I also never get heartburn. Maybe she can modulate her testosterone receptors and her essential fatty acid things.

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited October 20, 2005).]


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Elan
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I wasn't particularly trying to advocate moving mountains with thought. I was merely pointing out that the concept is well established in the modern world of metaphysics and quantum science that thoughts are a tangible "thing." This is the underlying principle behind shapeshifting in shamanism. Based on that premise, certain practitioners of shamanism do not think of shapeshifting as a "fictional" concept, but as an actual abilty that is done in real life.

When you stop and think about it, if our thoughts ARE that powerful and that tangible, wouldn't we have an incredible responsibility to "clean up" our mental chaos? Just a thought...


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EricJamesStone
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Christine,

Even today, post-menopausal women can bear children through in vitro fertilization.

Recent experiments in mice have shown it is possible for mammals to generate new eggs in the ovaries.

It would therefore seem completely implausible to me that nanotechnology could progress to the level of allowing appearance alteration on a cellular level, while generating new human ova for post-menopausal women remained impossible.


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Elan
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gaaahhh!!! I pray daily for menopause! Quit saying that a woman doesn't have to go through it in mid-life! Who in their right mind would WANT periods for the rest of their life!!! *plugs fingers in ears and begins chanting la-la-la-la-can't-hear-you-la-la...*
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Jeraliey
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Menopause is hormonally triggered, I believe. Degradation and decreased release of eggs are symptoms, not causes.
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Christine
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Interesting. I didn't realize that women were able to make new cells given help, which nanotech would certainly be able to do if sufficiently advanced.

Oh, and while women do have hundreds of eggs to start with, they go bad usually before menopause even starts. It is also possible that nanotech could repair those eggs or keep them from going bad.

I saw a story on the news last night about thirty something women freezing their eggs so they didn't run out of time, biologically speaking. I wouldn't bank on it, not with a 20$ success rate, but it's encouraging that things are moving that direction. The one issue that I think people aren't thinking of is this: How good are older parents at being parents? Case in point: my mother-in-law got pregnant at 42, an accident. (I don't think she thought she could have anymore.) Her husband is now 50, she's 49, and they're running after a 6-year-old without the same energy they had twenty years ago when they raised my husband. My father-in-law's health is frankly just failing.

Now, in far-future scifi we can argue that nanotechnology has also done some rejuvenation, but in near-future stuff, and thinking about the implications of these current new procedures, I wonder how well a person can parent if they wait until 50 or 60 to start.

Just something to throw out...


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pantros
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Clearly sterilization is an irrevoccable side effect of the nanobot implantation. Let's not make this too hard.
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franc li
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Mice are not humans, though. I mean, a menopausal mouse is what, 3 years old? You can also stimulate a rabbit egg to parthogenetic mitosis. It's kind of scary that most of our medical research is done on animals that don't have lymph nodes. I'm not saying lymph nodes are critical to the reproductive issues, though they probably are related to why we live longer by an order of magnitude.
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MaryRobinette
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How much time does she need to complete the transformation? I know an actor who is able to completely change her apparent age, without makeup, because she have freakish control over her micromusculature. Think Jim Carrey. So, the mutation angle would work for the age although things like hair color, would have to be manipulated externally.

Female to male, now that's harder unless she doesn't have to be naked.

Heck, Harry Harrison gave the Stainless Steel rat this ability but it was largely through prothesis and make up.


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autumnmuse
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Let me give you more of the story setup, to put it in context.

My MC, Kore, was sexually abused as a young girl. As a teen, she was apprenticed to a sorcerer (if fantasy) or scientist (if science fiction). She developed the ability to change her physical appearance very convincingly, and for long periods of time without extra effort expended.

Because she was wary of further physical abuse, she chose, as a young woman, to dress, act and appear as a crone. She does this for many years, living in a forest and begging travelers for food in exchange for advice/predictions of their future. I'm thinking of all those fairy tales with the mysterious crone that seems to come from nowhere and knows everything.

Then one day she takes the glamour (or whatever) off and realizes that underneath it, she has actually become old. And she hasn't ever really lived. So she decides to make the most she can of the rest of her life, so she changes her appearance again, this time to appear young. She meets and falls in love with a man, and they marry. She doesn't reveal her secret, and he doesn't find out.

At some point later, they're having major marital issues. She can't have children and she still has a hard time trusting men. He is dissatisfied and looks outside the marriage.

The husband commits some crime, which I haven't decided exactly what it is yet, which has a death penalty.

Kore visits him, at first spiteful and unable to forgive, but realizes that she is also partially to blame. And since she is in truth very old and going to die soon, she once more changes her appearance, this time to look like her husband. She confesses her deception to him, and takes his place and his punishment upon herself.


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pantros
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As an apprentice to a solitary mad scientist, its easy: only he had the technology. It's, in effect, a secret her husband couldn't possibly guess.

Magic is easy and you already have your price attached.

The story would work with either one. I personally prefer fantasy, but that's a taste.

If you go science fiction, you could have the scientist or another of his apprentices go public with the technology a few days before the husband figures things out or is told. Oops, getting out of your story now.


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hoptoad
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I don't know if this helps at all but many creatures have change factors in their genes that cause them to change throughout their life. But these are mostly like one way doors.

Many primates' brains can regenerate cells and still retain memory, science sees this as a potential avenue for the treatment of brain disease/damage in the future.

Perhaps isolating the change factors in animals' genes for use in humans could have some rare, unintended side-effect or using certain animals that can/do transform in some sort of ritual magic could produce a two-way door effect in Kore because the normal matrix of genes that existed in the original species were no longer there to produce the one-way signals. This could also explain why the changes may be faster than in the original species but also not so profound.

Just a thought.


If you are interested see:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/bodychangers/shifters.html

This is the statement that made me think:

quote:

And turning off some genes by blocking their action can prevent some animals from maturing at all, leaving them permanently stuck in their larval forms. Such research is helping scientists understand genetic diseases, and may eventually lead to new treatments.

I would be interested to know whether this sort of scenario would be helpful to you.

I just find the nanobot line a bit predictable.

PS: Kore is a cool name, at the end of the story can we call her Kouros?

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited October 20, 2005).]


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franc li
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So she can't actually have anti-aging since she only appears young and is, in fact, dying the same as anyone. Will she retain her appearance after death? Burning at the stake (fantasy setting, probably) would resolve that. I think all the techno-answers would be tripped up in that they tend not to work without actually extending life. Unless she gets cancer by using the youth enhancing nanites. Cancer cells create they problems they do because they themselves tend to be immortal.

But, yeah. It seems your plot also revolves around the transformation being pretty rapid. And how does he get out of the cell? Does she transfer the spell/technology to him? There is always the Hannibal escape. Ick.

I would suggest that the event that causes her to realize she wants to stop living as a crone is her menopause. There is anthropological research on gender and the post-menopause state. Or at least there was 15 years ago. How older women can do things and go places that fertile women cannot. I'm thinking widows in Crete can go into drinking establishments or something.

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited October 20, 2005).]


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Christine
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I believe your plot also hinges on the tranformation being superficial. For that reason, I would recommend against nanotechnology. This is illusion, whether done through magic or through science.

This seems as though it's been thought out more as a fantasy than a science fiction story. But then, it sounds very much like you're at the early stages here. What subplots do you intend to include? What kinds of side issues do you want to bring in? If this is fantasy, when and where is it set? If this is scifi, when and where is it set?

Or you can do my personal favorite and combine the two....after a long trip to a planet far, far away where she finally escapes her father and her past she runs into an alien sorcerer who takes her on as his aprentice...


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Kickle
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Have you read Octavia Butler's "Wildseed"? It might give you some food for thought as there are some similarity in what you are thinking about and that story.
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pantros
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oops

[This message has been edited by pantros (edited October 20, 2005).]


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MaryRobinette
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I'm still going to maintain my sole vote for she apprenticed to an actor.
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Corky
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Not sole, MaryRobinette. I second your vote.
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Spaceman
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I've come very late to this topic and skimmed through but didn;t see this idea. If it's just her face, then perhaps she had a terrible accident as a child and she has an artificial face (you would need realistic androids in ths universe to make it plausable.) Either she can change the appearance of this artificial face at will, or she has a whole collection of artifical faces. Literally a collection of masks.
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autumnmuse
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You know what? Never mind.

I'm going to go with fantasy. I'll be able to craft exactly the ability I need to work for the story. And my other novel is already a science fiction one; I guess I can have one of each.


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yanos
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I think if she has to maintain this all the time with her husband it can't be superficial or just an illusion. He'll touch her all the time so it has to be a 'real' transformation or whenever she forgets/relaxes she could be found out.

This spell/science could be of a semi-permanent nature i.e. needs little maintenance. I'd suggest making the spell a painful 'restructure' type spell, where the spell actually changes the structure of parts of her body in a painful way. Imagine the werewolf transformation.


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Robyn_Hood
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The only thing I wonder about, whether you go fantasy or science fiction: how does the husband escape?

It isn't enough that she assume his appearance and die in his place, he still has to escape and avoid capture. Anyone recognizing him could turn him in and even without knowing how, the authorities would know that a deception had occured and the wrong person executed.

If this is fantasy, perhaps it is a simple enough spell that she can teach it to him or cast it herself (as an old woman, her abilities might have grown, etc.).

If Sci-fi, the technology could be transferable, allowing her to inject him with the nanites (or whatever) and he would be able to escape to a place where he would be safe.

Sounds interesting, however you decide to write it.


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Survivor
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Yeah, I think that just going with fantasy is the best option.

Though I like MR's tidbit about a someone that actually can do it


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franc li
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The thing is, altering appearance to not look like yourself is within the realm of hard science. Altering appearance to be taken for a specific someone else would seem to take some magic. Did someone mention that X-files with the tailed babies and the Luke Skywalker impersonator?
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Survivor
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I was going to talk about polymorphine and Callidius Assassins, not that it would have been a real helpful direction here.

quote:
Because Polymorphed Assassins in Terminator Armor with Assault Cannons suck!

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Domasai
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Since you're mentioning merely having her change appearance, does it require physical change at all? I mean, there are various technologies that could be hypothesized or could possibly even be in development now that could alter the way she appears to other people. Something that emits a frequency that interferes with the information from the eye to the brain could do something similar but it would have short-range effects.

I don't know. Not really my area of expertise, but I sort of like the notion of it being something that you have to be within a certain area to be affected by.


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keldon02
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franc li is right about simple acting being enough but if you wanted to go deeper you could discuss an esoteric artform such as Frank Herbert's concept of the "face dancer". Great makup artists such as Lon Chaney didn't just use makeup. Rather they used their ability to throw all their muscles into whatever role they played. Harry Houdini could dislocate his shoulders when he needed to.

Elan's discussion of shamans who venture into shapeshifting approaches a possible technology of inducing hallucinations in the viewer (as does Obi Wan's Star Wars IV conversation at the police checkpoint). Perhap it would be possible for your character to have learned about some sort of mildly hallucinogenic poison she could spray as needed to enhance the hallucination she was male?


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apeiron
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I confess I haven't read all the replies to this topic, so if this has been mentioned, I apologize.

It sounds like the alterations you're looking for are literally only skin deep. Perhaps some sort of tiny threads (call them nano or metallic or magic material No 5 for all it matters) seeded throughout her skin. Electrical stimulus, which could be activated by her brain, to different threads could alter that skin shape. (I'm thinking something akin to that "parasailing" material in Batman Begins, though I think the same idea has been used before--though never for skin.)

As for nobody knowing about the technology, I say that's all in character development. Your protag would need access to new, most likely classified, technology. Or at least connections to someone who can tell her it exists so she can go about aquiring it. I don't know your plot, so I don't know how conceivable this is.


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franc li
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The ability to appear aged or not was a Bene Gesserit "trick" as well (going with the Dune-iverse). Unless they were talking about it in some metaphysical sense that I didn't understand.

But I still like the magic idea, and particularly the idea not that she is going to die because she is so old, but maybe the cost of the spell to actually resemble another is that she die, or maybe it just can't be reversed.

And again, if this were a futuristic prison, she would have to turn into him and he would probably have to turn into her. I guess there could be some possibilities with the end dangling that way. With the whole "one flesh" Judeo-Christian theme.

P.S. I guess one more thought I had would have something to do with the shamanistic idea where this person can pass into the body of another at the time of death. This was executed somewhat as sci-fi in "Being John Malkovich". Perhaps the woman used to be a man and chose at death to become a young girl, but found out being a young girl can be a pretty tough life. She kills herself and goes into the body of a crone, as you have it, then back into a young woman. In the end it is the first time she does so through trading straight across. Though this creates a problem of what becomes of the "souls" of the bodies she/he takes over in the course of things. But then, toward the end of his life Og Mandino apparently espoused a theory of everyone having a chorus of at least 6 advisors in their heads. Which brings us back to the Dune-tastic goodness.

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited October 26, 2005).]


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