posted
In my writing I would tend to steer clear of profanity. One of the main reasons from an experience that I had a while ago. I was reading a book from a well known and liked writer, suddenly the f-bomb was used in her dialogue. I was so suprised at this that it totally took me out of the story. Whether this was just a misplaced or not, it took me out of the suspension of disbelief that had been set up. I haven't seen a true need for profanity in any writing that I have seen, and thus it doesn't need to be in there, in my opinion.
Posts: 16 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
well... in some cases it is o.k. to use profanity, but Ive been reading the greats, and one instance really stands out to me: an instance in wich profanity completely ruined the story. It concerns a nun by the name of Sister Carlota, and she is searching for the origins of an extraordinary boy. in that search, she drops a few swear words now and then, if not unintentionaly. the one that stood out the most was B@$%@rD. that completely alienated me.
Posts: 240 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Keep in mind that B@$%@rD is not only a swear word, it is a description of legitimacy of birth. It might be shocking to hear a nun use that word as a curse, but if she is using it to describe an individual's status of legitimacy, it wouldn't shock me any.
Posts: 2026 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why is arse spelled as it is? It is just like gaol and colour in being an alternate spelling in American english? Is that how they spell the synonym for donkey?
Posts: 366 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Arse is a pronounciation variation, and the usage of the word is less common in America than in other English speaking countries. I can't speak for how the Brits perceive it, but in America the word "arse" is often used when we are jokingly imitating the British. It's sort of a slang variation of the slang, so to speak.
The most common usage in America is ass, and the sound of the "a" is "ahhh", which is different from "arse".
In America, the word "arse" never implies a donkey... a donkey is an ass and nothing more. However, a drunk can be an ass as well.
As for gaol, that variation of "jail" is only used in America for historical and fantasy novels. It's never used for the buildings that incarcerate criminals.
Colour, labour, armour: these spellings are British in nature. In America, the "u" is always dropped out.
Arse is your bum. But properly speaking, it refers to an animal's bum (usually a cow or horse).
So when someone says kiss my ass, they are implying their bum is like the rear-end of a cow.
However in Australia, where I am, the 'R' is never pronounced the word sounds more like 'uss'.
An 'ass' is a donkey, it is pronounced with a hard 'A' just like in the US. Don't be tempted, when affecting a British accent for whatever reason, to ask someone to 'take a ride on your arse', it won't mean what you hope it means.
There are plenty of words that aren't rude in Australia that are in the US, hell, damn, bastard. In fact bastard is a term of endearment:
'How's it going you old bastard?' "Had a shocker, mate. I burnt the snags on the barbie and now the missus is snaky. You?' "Can't complain. Where's the esky?'
Remember the 'bast' contains a long 'A'. Do Americans use a long 'A'? I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.
Whereas a 'bugger' is someone who pursues unnatural relations, usually with animals. It freaked me out the first time I heard an American refer to their kids as 'little buggers'. I must say though, that bugger has lost most of its potency. As is 'spunk' which used to be a rude word but now refers to someone good looking and rarely (almost never) a spirited person.
Anyway I live in a country where the F word is an everyday event on TV as is most others. The C* word turns up occassionally. No one complains so it just gets worse and worse.
The following was a recent viewer advisory I saw on TV:
Viewers are advised that the following programme contains: Frequent Coarse Language Drug Use Drug References Adult themes Sex Scenes Very Strong Sex Scenes Violence
It was for a music video show on the ABC, our Government funded public broadcaster.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 21, 2005).]
posted
In America, the word "bugger" is pretty tame. "That's a real bugger," means a puzzling problem. "You little bugger," usually has a mischievious connotation, which is why adults call kids that.
Saying "You little f****r", on the other hand, is usually said with venomous undertones and rarely used jokingly. Even between friends, there is a tone of animosity in the word, and it can rapidly turn the mood in the room sour. Teens and early 20's are more likely to use it than the rest of the population.
The word bast*** is said with a short "a" as in "apple." (At least I think it's a short "a"... I was never much good at labeling the parts of speech. I understand how to USE them, just not how they are classified.)
I had never noticed the nuance that an "arse" is only the hindquarters of an animal. I occasionally say, "Well, I guess I'd better get my arse in gear." Guess I'd better rethink that phrase.
There are different insult words in different languages. If someone who is Native American calls a non-native an "Indian Princess", it's an insult. White people tend to glorify their heritage by claiming "Oh, my grandmother was a Cherokee princess," which Native Americans find insulting. There WAS no "royalty" in their culture and they see a claim to being a "princess" as another white "we're-better-than-you" affectation.
I have a friend who was raised in the Southwest, where the culture is strongly influenced by Mexicans. She called me a "gringa" one day... spanish for "stupid white person." Why? I told her mexican food was the same food, just built in a different order. Enchiladas, tortillas, tacos...all the same food. Tortilla shells, meat or beans, cheese, salsa, chili sauce, lettuce, tomatos... same food, just arranged differently. She seemed to think my tastebuds were deficient.
I remember, years ago, (I'm older than dirt if you recall), Howard Cosell the sports broadcaster was broadcasting a football game. He was calling a play by an African-American and yelled out, "Watch that little monkey go!!" Well, that caused a HUGE furor. African-Americans took that as an insult, like he was calling them apes. He apologized, and said, "I call my grandkids little monkeys!"
An inadvertant slip of the lip, and a different cultural view... that's all it takes to become profanity.
posted
We had a similar experience on Australian TV where Bert Newton (Australian compere) and Muhammed Ali were announcing the winner of a TV award. There was some friendly repartee between the two until Bert finally turned to the camera and said 'Hey! I like the boy.' 'What did you call me? What did you say?' Mr Ali's hackles were raised and no-one in Australia knew why. Finally he calmed down. (In fact, when he saw the gobsmacked/terrified look on Bert's face, he realised pretty quick that the word had no derogatory meaning in Australia and Mr Ali acted with uncommon grace.)
Bert, on the other hand, never quite got over it.
PS: The 'animal's rear' aspect of 'arse' is rapidly disappearing.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 22, 2005).]
posted
You don't need profanity to have impact, Archer; in fact, profanity weakens your impact by derailing the reader from considering the content of your words for the sake of a few words inserted for shock value only. You can have the most impact by presenting intelligent, thoughtful comments.
If you want to know why you are asked to refrain from strong profanity on this board, re-read all three pages of this thread.
posted
Yeah, I've heard that argument. I don't need to cuss to have impact. Then again, I don't need to use the word strong to describe a strong man, now do I? Each word has its own qualities that can be used in various ways. I think a lot of people are treating vulgarity like the Greeks treated the bow and arrow.
And how does a cuss take away from the intelligence of my argument? It doesn't. You think less of me for it, but my argument is no less valid than it would be without the cussing.
And in writing there's absolutely no reason not to use "obscene" words. Real people cuss. Why shouldn't characters cuss?
And I don't see how any word is inappropriate for the f&f forum. It's a freaking word (and no, I wouldn't have used the fu version there. Freaking has a different sound that I find fits that context better). It's not like it's going to taint anyone's virgin eyes here. It's a PLUS 18 FORUM. Anyone who's 18 and hasn't heard/read the F-word doesn't have internet access...
[This message has been edited by ArCHeR (edited November 23, 2005).]
posted
I suppose you'd never thought that some people over 18 don't want to hear it, just like they don't want endless repetitive arguments either. But then I guess asking for respect for other people's sensitivities is too much and will get the usual disrespectful response about your right to do whatever you want because you've read the Constitution... or something like that.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, I just think people over 18 should be smart enough to know that they're just WORDS. Not even directed at them. I can understand someone being offended when CALLED a motherf****er, but when a character stubs their toe I don't see the logic in being offended by an expression of pain. Or even being offended by someone using one word rather than another. I would be equally offended if called a bastard or a butt-head.
And even beyond that, why single out one offensive act? I find Mormonism offensive to my beliefs. But I don't rail on OSC for being a Mormon. Some people find my haircut offensive. Why? Because I'm male and my hair is long. Never mind that men have had long hair for millennia before the 20th century. I find Celine Dion's music offensive. I'm not going to try to get her banned from the radio.
Things like that don't actually hurt the offended. So why impede another's expressions or beliefs because it makes you uncomfortable? Who's really being the insensitive one?
posted
And on your website you can post any words you want. The point is that this forum is on OCS's site, and we have been asked to refrain from using curse words on this site. It's a matter of respect for being given a free forum filled with helpful advice on writing, and it's about knowing that anyone who replies to something you post will do so in an intelligent way and without the need for swearing.
Yes, curse words are just words. And images are just images. Should we allow people to post pornography on this site then, just because it's an 18+ forum? It's just the human body after all... The point is that the owner of this site who graciously allows us to use it for free has asked that material he finds questionable / crude not be present in these forums. And that includes curse words.
And whether you want to acknowledge it or not, curse words do make an argument less valid in the mind of many people. In a rational, intellectual discussion, curse words serve no purpose. Most of the time they are simply inserted for shock value and in place of solid reasoning.
As for using them in writing, sometimes the nature of a character may demand swearing, if that's the characterization you're looking for. Personally, I like to use made up curse words, since I write fantasy mostly, so even though the reader can get the idea of what the character means, those readers who would be put off by actual curse words aren't. Always better to try not to alienate anyone if you don't have to, I think.
posted
ArCHeR, this website is not here so you can rant and rave about freedom of speech.
If you are unable to contribute anything beyond this "debate" (such as feedback on other writer's work or offering your own work for comment), then perhaps this is not the best place for you.
posted
Kathleen... this is a thread about the use of profanity, and it's not in F&F. I have posted several of my own things, and contributed feedback to other people's works. The problem is that when I post my stuff, the thread fizzles out and I don't get too much useful feedback, and when I contribute feedback to others, it doesn't seem to get anywhere.
And I'm not ranting and raving about freedom of speech. If you think these are rants and raves, you've already made cruel assumptions of my character, and I find that offensive.
quote:The problem is that when I post my stuff, the thread fizzles out and I don't get too much useful feedback, and when I contribute feedback to others, it doesn't seem to get anywhere.
Then maybe this website forum is not working for you.
posted
remember this when you say that: like me, Orson is a MORMAN!!! so dont say bad words because of the word of wisdom in our religion. (yes, I use profanity occasionally! I am not a good morman!)
keeping that in mind, I can see why OSC has refrained from allowing us to use profanity. 'nuff said
posted
If this were a Mormon web site, I'd agree that it's fine. But this is a site for fans of the works of a Mormon. I don't think he should (not saying it's not his right) limit a person's vocabulartiy in a space where he's trying to encourage creativity.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Archer, you don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. You don't even have to understand it. Keeping strong profanity off the site is the rule. End of story.
You are hung up on the fact that PARTICIPATION on this forum is for people 18+ years of age. There is no password lockout to keep kids UNDER 18 from reading these posts. As such, the administrators have established a rule about posting strong profanity on the site.
You are beating a dead horse. To continue to do so is futile and off-topic, which is probably the kindest thing I could say about it. Why don't you find some other topic to focus on and let this one drop?
Expend some energy in participating in a discussion about WRITING, not your indignation.
posted
Yes, it is the rule, and no it's not the end of the story. To tell me not to question a rule is to tell me to stop behaving like an American. I'm not exaggerating here. Yes, it's just some rule on some message board on the internet, but the principle is the same on any scale.
I'm not beating a dead horse. You are. I've stated my opinion on the rule, and you all keep arguing with my opinion. If you want me to stop defending my opinion just say, "That's your opinion, and we respect that. However, it's up to the person who pays for the web space."
And it's certainly not off-topic to discuss the use of profanity in a topic about the use of profanity. It may be off the original purpose of the thread, but it's still not unreasonable to discuss something like this.
And quit acting like you're better than me because I'm of a differing opinion. This IS a discussion about writing. The fact that I see the way this aspect of writing is treated on this board as unfair has nothing to do with value of me arguing it.
And don't act like I've just come to this board to start arguing about profanity. This just happens to be the topic I find to be the most valuable expendature of my energy and thought on in the schedual of this 19 year old part-time student, part time employee, and Civ IV addict.
quote:If you want me to stop defending my opinion just say, "That's your opinion, and we respect that. However, it's up to the person who pays for the web space."
Elan said: "...no one is telling you not to cuss in your manuscripts....You are being asked to refrain from posting strong profanity here on this board."
AstroStewart said: "this forum is on OCS's site, and we have been asked to refrain from using curse words on this site."
Elan also said: "Keeping strong profanity off the site is the rule."
Elan also said: "the administrators have established a rule about posting strong profanity on the site."
So, please stop.
Respectfully, sojoyful
[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited December 01, 2005).]
On a website that had established rules before you chose to join, you are best described by the words you use if you insist the rules are wrong. The reality is that the rules of the website are the rules of the website and if you do not like them, the American thing to do would be to go off and start your own website with the rules you like.
The people who stay here chose to stay because they agree with the rules. No one is forcing these rules on you, so you have no reason to play the revolutionary and fight them. It would cause you no hardship to chose another writer's forum where no one cares about ho a teenageer rants on language.
posted
ArCHeR, in order to register to post messages on this website, you agreed to the following:
quote:You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.
Please notice that by agreeing to the above, you have no right to complain that the profane and vulgar words in your post were censored, because you agreed not to post such words in order to be able to post on this website at all.
posted
An immigrant who chooses to move to a country should abide by the systems in place there. If those systems allow for debate over the laws, then yes, they should participate in making change.
If the laws of the country they choose to move to forbid dissention, then they should not dissent or they should not move there in the first place.
However there is a HUGE difference between government and a small bulliten board forum. Everyone has to live under some form of government and a person should have a say as to which form they live under. But, you do not have to be here or on any other web based writers forum. Most writers before you were successful without the benefit of this place.
Only an immature mind does not grasp that some people will be offended and it is not your right to offend when you have been asked not to. (IE don't post vulgar language) Though most adults can deal with it, they may prefer not to. There are forums available for people who insist that vulgar language is necessary for adult communication. These are not those.
Maturity is never based on the level of vulgarity you choose to tolerate. I take no offense at bad language, personally. Heck, I write porn. But I don't force anyone to read it. I don't post it on boards where people can stumble across it when they are expecting otherwise. I do take offense to people who can't understand that the person most easily offended sets the standard for a community and insist on continuing offensive behavior.
Your level of respect for other peoples sensitivities will define you as a child or an adult.
posted
I find it incredibly forgiving of Kathleen not to have locked this thread a while back. I would have shut it down without a second thought, if I had her awesome powers.
And my point is that vulgar language isn't the only offensive thing. Anyone can find just about anything offensive. And a lot of people who do.
For example, someone could find it offensive that a person writes about the Holocaust. They could either be Jews who find the author's interpretations of the events offensive, or it could be a German who is offended that someone would keep drudging up that part of their nation's history. But my whole point is you shouldn't get mad at someone for offending you if that wasn't their intention. The author just wanted to write a story that takes place during the Holocaust.
Taking offense is an easy thing to do. Regulating what is offensive is even harder. The struggle to not offend people is what causes things like a coke commercial saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" at the end of a commercial featuring FREAKING SANTA CLAUS!
It can just get ridiculous, and it would be much better for the entire world if people stopped getting all in a frenzy over something as unavoidable as being offended.
what you're bickering and dicking about here is the fact that you're not allowed in say something like "F*** you very much!" During the course of a 13 line post.
13 lines.
Hello?! Who gives a f***?!
Edit the 13 lines.
Then, if and when anyone requests the whole manuscript, you can reinsert the original wording when you send the story privately to that person's email address. Provided, of course, that the recipient has been made aware in advance that there is offensive language in the text.
Mike, Kathleen probably hasn't closed this topic because Archer would start bleeding his heart out about censorship and freedom of speech and blah blah blah ad nauseum.
posted
You make a good point. It can get rediculous. Just yesterday or the day before I heard that some people were upset because cities were choosing to call 'Christmas trees' 'Holiday trees' instead. In my opinion, that would seem a lot more politically correct, but some people just don't see it that way.
[This message has been edited by luapc (edited December 02, 2005).]
posted
While it is the right thing to do to be aware of other peoples sensibilities regarding such things as obscene language, since it is not directly related to any class of people; it is silly to try to please everyone a la Politically Correct.
I have never known anyone, Muslim, Jewish, Pagan, 7th day adventist, whatever to boycott a store for posting "Merry Christmas" or for that matter "Happy Chunahkah." (pardon the mispell).
If someone finds a subject matter offensive, they can stop reading. Its not quite an instantaneous effect like vulgar words where once you read it, the offense is taken.
Marketting is an incredibly scary concept. I have a degree in marketting, (yes, yes I have done everything at one point or another), the detail of data and the relationships between that data and what it means to what you will buy if influenced in what way...the research is frightening.
The people coming up with these PC holidays are not the people who know marketing.
Genericizing one persons holiday to not offend anyone else, just offends one person and has no more or less offense to the other people. The better plan as a retailer is to embrace the holiday that you are selling for. Splash your store with signs that say "Merry Christmas." "Happy Hunnakah" (again sorry), "Happy Kwanza" "Happy Solstice" All the gift giving holidays.
Everyone in this country has a right to express their religion in a non-violent way. (five years ago that sentence ended four words earlier.) This includes retailers.
The only entities forbidden from expressing their religion are government agencies and agents.
Its not like american christmas is really a religious holiday anymore anyway. What comes to mind first when you hear "Christmas"? A baby in a manger or a guy in a red suit? If you said "Neither, I think of two circles on a platic card, well..."
These are my opinion and they are the right ones. If you don't agree, that's fine. I will allow you to be wrong. This time
posted
mike, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks this is ridiculous. But I don't think the whole thread should be locked. There was an intelligent and interesting discussion going on before Archer highjacked the thread to use as his own personal soapbox. I'm surprised that KDW hasn't taken action, since Archer is clearly disrespecting the rules that he agreed to when registering. Especially since he blatantly and explicitly declared what to say to end this childishness, but long after it was said multiple times, he hasn't stopped. This shows he obviously doesn't want what he says to be taken seriously, but just wants to hear himself talk (or type, in this case).
KDW, there was a good thread here on a writerly topic. We should be free to continue that discussion, but we're not. Archer has been asked to take his political views elsewhere, and refuses. Can't you do anything?
posted
I would say that the ar-- discusion brings up an interesting point.
An Ass, the packanimal, is noted for its stubborness. Calling someone by that name is refering to their stubborn behavior.
Its a malapropism that people nowadays think that calling someone (another name for mule) actually is calling them a body part.
Calling someone that body part is vulgar, calling them stubborn as a mule is not. But how do you know what someone is thinking when they say it. Most likely they are thinking only that someone is being a jerk and using the word A-- to mean that without caring where the word came from.
I think its a zigzag of malapropism that anyone uses the Ar-- word to describe someone being a jerk at all.
The ar-- word is a relatively new word, created to find a way to distinguish between the two.
the as- word has been an insult for more than half a milennium, dating back at least as far as shakespeare.
posted
Wow. You're saying I shouldn't be allowed to offend people by using a continuous stream of low, unjustified insults that do nothing to further the conversation. Congratulations. You've discovered hippocrisy.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, we agreed to the short list of rules before we registered. But language was never specified as part of offensive content. Simply saying "content and language" adds clarification for those of us who aren't offended by occasionally reading "f***".
"Foul language" used sparingly doesn't look like offensive content to me. But even if you simply said, "that you will not use this BB to post any material or language..." (adding or language), it would tell most people that it's unacceptable to talk like that around here.
Alternately, a post containing clarification of the rules under the "read first" section of the forum, or stuck at the top of every section, would make it easy to find and read at any time, and be an indication to lurkers and visitors about what they should expect. A Code of Conduct post would be useful anyway.
posted
Are we reaching the point now where we're going to have to start posting things like "warning, hot coffee may be hot" where the intention has been clear all along? Included in the things we agreed not to post when we registered our names was anything "vulgar" or "profane." Vulgar I can understand, mostly that smacks of vulgar content to me, not vulgar words, necesarrily. But profane? Posting something profane? What could that possibly mean other than... profanity? It's the same word! I think it's pretty clear it was asking us not to swear.
Archer, I can see where you're coming from. I like to stand up for freedom of speech and expression, just for the principle, but the only problem is that it doesn't apply here. When you willingly join a message board that restricts fould language (on the basis of setting up an environment that is friendly to those who might find it offensive) you waive the right to complain about that restriction. If we were following you around on the streets blowing a foghorn or electrocuting you or something anytime you cursed, or if we were a publisher who washes out all your swear words in your writings, then I would agree with your objections.
And please, everyone, let's not resort to name calling. Archer was just trying to describe how he felt, and now we have heard him. End of story - no one is the "bad guy." Maybe I'm just more understanding than the rest of you due to a forum battle I've been a part of in the past.
On that note, pantros, if you want a REALLY good example for a small-minded person, you should check out any/all posts by "my own person" on http://www.b2g3.com/boards/board.cgi?user=conspiracy (It's a message board for a favorite band of mine, Conspiracy of Thought. Somehow a religious debate got started, and the poster "my own person" is the best real life example of completely close minded person I have ever seen. It's fascinating, really.)
posted
It's not so much patience as it is modem problems.
quote:I'm not complaining about the actions mods take, I'm complaining about the rule they are following when they take such actions.
But when you registered to post here, ArCHeR, you AGREED to abide by that rule. I am just trying to certify that you are totally clear on what you AGREED to do.
If you do not keep your AGREEMENT, you are not welcome to post here. It's that simple.
posted
Actually, profane could also be: 1. Marked by contempt or irreverence for what is sacred. 2. Nonreligious in subject matter, form, or use; secular: sacred and profane music. 3. Not admitted into a body of secret knowledge or ritual; uninitiated.
In a site devoted to a Mormon author, it could very easily have the more religious meaning.
My point was simply to say adding the word "language" will make it abundantly clear. I'm not trying to force us into a state of absurdity, where every single minute detail must be spelled out. "Language" is simply a clarification. If you said, "don't post offensive content or language", any reasonable person will understand what "language" refers to. It's just as simple, yet clearer than saying only "offensive content".
posted
I think this discussion has made it abundantly clear that people here on Hatrack understand that "language" is what is being referred to in the registration agreement.
Those people who insist on claiming that they don't understand this after all the discussion here are being deliberately obtuse.
posted
I've only read page 3 of this thread, and already I see the same arguments over and over. If everyone is enjoying this exchange, please continue, but may I recommend locking this thread?
I don't think Archer intends to be a troll, but he's behaving as one. He knows the rules of this forum, and he should know that complaining (I considered being ironic and saying 'b****ing') about them won't change anything. So he has two choices, participate and obey the rules, or leave.
End of discussion, yeah?
EDIT: I browsed through some of the other pages and it seems there's also legitimate writing discussion going on. Locking the thread may be jumping the gun, but the business of this forum's rules is still silly to keep arguing about.
[This message has been edited by apeiron (edited December 03, 2005).]
Topic Closed
Printer-friendly view of this topic
