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Author Topic: Genderized POV or Target POV?
luapc
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First, since this is about gender, I should tell everyone that I am male. I recently wrote a science fiction story where the MC is a female who is attracted to a male character in the story. The story is written in third person limited, so everything is presented as she thinks and sees it.

When I finished the story, and presented it for critique (not here, BTW), I got some interesting comments from female critiquers that I did not recieve from male critiquers. I thought I was writing it correctly as a woman would view things, but I found that I wasn't. I did not get the same criticism from the male reviewers, who thought it sounded fine. When questioned about it, the male reviewers thought that changing it to reflect the female reviewers comments would shift the problem in the opposite direction, and the story might not show a strong enough atttraction by the female MC to the male character for the story to work for them. This seems to be a difference in gendered perceptions of relationships (in general, of course).

Now finally to my question. Considering that science fiction readership is mostly male, should I make the changes and hope it doesn't allienate the male readership and ruin the story for them, or leave it be, understanding that some female readers may find the story unbelievable because of the portrayal of the MC?

Right now I'm planning on changing a few of the things, but not all, trying to balance the issue so that neither gender feels the story is unbelievable.

I think this is a very important question for science fiction stories where there are usually fewer instances of a love interest. It also occurs to me, that the opposite problem may occur when writing from a male MC's POV where the story includes a love interest. I would appreciate any feelings or comments.


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pantros
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If you are going to write a woman's thoughts, they absolutely must be within the realm of believable to women.

Unless you can successfully impart a female character as female, you might stick to your own gender.

It is not correct to write a woman as men expect a woman to think. The reason you and your male friends have misperceptions about a woman's thought processes is that you read too many men who have written women poorly. (Heinlen is among the worst at writing a woman's PoV)

Write women as real women, not as men think they should be. If you cannot, don't write as a woman.


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autumnmuse
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More women read science fiction than you think, and a lot of editors are female.

I'd try to make it more realistic if I were you.


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Zodiaxe
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I think it depends on the type of woamn you are portraying. Though, all women possess certain traits, they do differ. If your character is a hard as nails Xena type of warrior then I think a bit of male perspective is due. If she is a loving doting June Cleaver type then that is another perspective, one that would be more femine than masculine.

One of my favorite writers, Stephen Pressfield, uses a female MC in his book Last of the Amazons. It is through her narrative that the story is told about a woman who is..well, the last of the Amazons. I liked it as did, obviously, many others. At times Pressfield's writing is flowery and pretentious, but if you haven't read it maybe you should skim a few pages.

Peace,
Scott


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wbriggs
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What traits did she have that worked for female readers but not male; or the reverse?
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Jeraliey
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A really good example of a male author writing a female POV (in my opinion) was Rose Madder, by Stephen King. And I'll have to second that comment about Heinlein; his characterizations of women are laughable.
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Kickle
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It isn't sifi, but Charles de Lint also does a great job of writing from a woman's POV. You might try asking women how they would react or feel in the situations in your story. I've asked men those sort of questions and sometimes the answers I get surprise me.
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krazykiter
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Simple demostration of the point:

In the movie "The Quiet Man," the protagonist and antagonist get into a big fist fight. Then after ten minutes of beating each other senseless, they turn out best of friends. My wife just doesn't get it. I constantly remind her, "Honey, do not try and understand this, you will hurt yourself."

Likewise, men will never understand the female inclination to the communal bathroom run.

Let's face it, men and women are just wired differently. There are, of course, exceptions to every rule, but in general if you're a man trying to make a believable female character, find a woman and have her specifically critique your female characters. Ditto for women writing male characters.

It's also one of the most fertile grounds for comedy and drama in existence.


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luapc
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Hi wbriggs. Basically ,the characterization is of a young 20 something female that looks on the world as a kind of fairy tale, but that's not the way things are working out for her. She's fairly normal, and not deluded, just niave. She meets a guy under common circumstances and is attracted to him. Her internalized thoughts of the things that attract him to her,like mannerisms, looks, etc seemed to be what caused the most problem with the feeling from females, but seemed quite natural from most male critiquer's perspective. On the other hand, most of the male critiquers worried that if I toned it down, then her niave nature would be lost, which is central to the plot progression.

I realize that this is my error as the author, and I plan on fixing it, but I'm not sure I'm portraying the female character so incorrectly. It doesn't seem to be a major issue to female readers, just a pet peeve, so to speak, and many of them still liked the story.


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luapc
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I agree that it's good to have both genders read and critique a story, but if the two groups seem to disagree, then which way should an author make changes? It seems to me that an author should stick to where the most readers in a genre are. For example, if I were writing a romance novel, to ignore the woman's point of view and write the story only as a man saw it, it would be suicide. And even though there are a lot of female readers and editors in SF, most are male.

I do believe in writing believable characters, but I think that it is often a matter of opinion what is believable. Most of the time, this believability crosses gender lines, but with this one, it seems to be gender specific.


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Beth
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Well, you seem to have made up your mind already. Good luck with the project!
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nimnix
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Without reading the text, it's hard to say what would be believable and what wouldn't, but you should strive to make the character as believable as possible, or at least as believable as necessary for the reader to keep reading. Be careful of cliches, make sure if you use them you understand where they come from, and the mindset that generates them. Cliches tend to ruin stories for me, unless they're done right or the story is not a character story.
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pantros
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What are the things that cause your Female MC to find a guy attractive?

Muscles? - Yes, many women find muscles attractive, but this won't be enough.

Their wit? - If the guy makes them smile, yes.

Power? - yes, but more because the men who have power have earned it through proper use of their charms. Very shallow women will find the power instantly attractive. Deeper women will see the charismatic traits that earned the power and find them attractive. So men who gained power through, say, combat or deceit, and lack charms will be surrounded by superficial women.

The way they move? - yes. The motions should seem confident and solid. Jerky sudden motions - like fighting - are unattractive.

Facial handsomeness - same as muscles. It will start the interest, but something else has to carry it.

The way they smell - If a woman gets close enough to smell a guy, there can be a very strong chemistry if she likes the way he smells. This is usually subconscious though, but I have met several women who are aware of it when it happens.

First impression can be everything. If a man does something to lose a woman's interest in the first meeting, its very hard to get it back. It can be done but its an uphill battle.

On the other hand, very strong feelings like hatred and loathing can be flipped in the right circumstances - well, in fiction anyway. This is an accepted and enjoyed device.


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krazykiter
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While there is certainly some value in "writing to the market," when it comes down to it, you have to write YOUR story the way YOU feel it needs to be done, regardless of what anyone else says.

If your female character needs to be naive for the story to work, then that's what she needs to be. Plot develops from the tensions between elements in a story and it sounds like this character's naivete is a fairly large element. That said, you might want to ask your female critiquers for suggestions on how to more accurately portray her as a naive female.

If they have a beef with her just being naive, well, that's too bad. You might also want to consider their comments as a sign your story is *working*. They might be seeing the tension you're trying to develop in your story. I think the bigger question is how does this character GROW (for better or worse) as the story progresses. Maybe she learns to believe in fairy tales, maybe she learns fairy tales are how she escapes reality and avoids being responsible. Point being, I don't think it is as much of an issue that she is naive as it is what she does about it, or does with it.


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Elan
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Keep in mind there is a big difference between naive, and stupid. Behavior YOU may be interpreting as naive may be seen by others as stupid.

Don't get hung up on whether your readers are male or female. Saying "I don't have to make this character seem real because 60% of the readers won't notice" is sloppy writing.

Your job, as a writer, is to capture the most accurate portrait of the character you possibly can, whether that character is a five year old kid, an eighty year old man, or a twenty year old woman. Getting as close as you can, regardless of age/gender/occupation/psychological profile, is important.

Not all women will give you the same feedback. No one woman's opinion/critique is necessarily right. If one woman feels something is amiss in your story, that's one opinion. But if you have more than one woman telling you: "It is out of character for a woman to behave this way," you ought to be willing to take a second look at what you have with an open mind, and revise appropriately.


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Survivor
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If you're concerned about targeting the male audience, make the POV character male and the object of his affection female.

If you want to write a story from a female POV, then write it from a female POV. This seems so obvious I am almost ashamed to say it


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Miriel
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I think I'd take a careful look at what the women are saying -- examine what the real problem is, and then fix that problem how you think it should be fixed (reguardless of how they suggested it should be fixed). Just from what I've heard, I don't think I could believe a naive girl who was interested in a guy because of how he looked, either. Most girls like that are interested because they think "he's the one," or because she's "in love," or because "he loves me." There might be other factors, such as looks, wit, smile especially, ect., but in essence, they've decided he's Prince Charming and can do no wrong. That decision might be based on what he looks like...but they don't talk/think about him that way. Girls who talk/think about boys like Prince Charming are naive. Girls who talk/think about boys as nice bodies...are usually on the other end of the spectrum.
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hoptoad
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why worry about 'the market'?
Do what you know you should for the story's sake.

It sounds like you've made up your mind to do that anyway. Best of luck.


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