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Hi everyone, it's me, leaf. By this point I want to note that, writing that opinion in another section of this writing board, I wasn't directly calling anyone any names, or saying mean things specifically. That's the main point, to start with. I don't know if every one hates me, or just some. Maybe no one knows what the hell I'm talking about. I really don't care. Lets move it on along.... I do have a few questions maybe some people might be able to answer.
After reading stephen king's "on writing" (again.. like the fourth time,) I am wondering how neccessary it is to be a short story writer prior to writing a novel, (also... how many times has this question been asked on this board before?? many probably... but sorry, I missed those.) Is it considered nuts to just jump write in to writing, and hope to sell a completed novel? Does anyone know of any semi successful writers who just sort of.. wrote a damn good novel and went with it... no looking back, so to say.
Also, the second part of the questions noted in the subject... How do you guys edit your work, namely your longer ones. I know there is no right or wrong way to do things, but I am curious. I finished a novel in January, and just printed it out today, and started going through the pages and editing. I am planning a complete rewrite when all pages have been looked at..
Any tips? hints? criticisms or hopeful encouragement? I'll take it.
I printed out the complete third draft of my novel. I then went through it with a black pen, noting which scenes struck me as extraneous, which bits were corny, which characters disappeared mid-scene...Now I'm typing up the changes in word (or will be, as soon as I get hold of my printed version, which I forgot at my parents' house). I haven't gone further, but I reckon the next step is getting hold of a victim (sorry, reader) to tell me what he/she thinks of all of that. And then to get a crit group to tell me their opinion. And then...I think I can stop procrastinating and write a query letter and send the whole thing off
posted
Personally I don't much enjoy writing short stories, so I certainly hope you don't have to be a short story person first. I don't know if it's normal to sell your first novel. I'm probably never going to publish my first. But I think it's possible to get better and better at writing novels without having much (if any) short story experience.
As to editing, my main advice would be to put the manuscript down for a long time, enough that when you come back to it you don't remember the writing process. That way you'll be able to see it all from a much different perspective. Other than that... I'd say let other people edit it too since it's really hard to catch everything yourself.
Just wanted to mention something else too... I think I know what you were talking about with the "not saying mean things specifically." I think I completely understand how you're feeling. Regardless of our best intentions, anonymity can make fools of all of us on a forum like this. I personally hold nothing against you, especially since you've said you didn't mean any harm.
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Brandon Sanderson just published his first novel, called "Elantris" (very good), and I don't think he published short stories before hand. So, it's possible.
Posts: 189 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
It's too bad that some things got said in FF that don't belong there. But it happens.
Writing and submitting (either for critique or publication) short stories is the main road to learning how to handle the basics of text narrative. Is it the only way? No. But you should consider the benefits.
First, with short stories you can write several stories and get feedback on an entire dramatic arc. Yes, the short story form doesn't allow the scope of a novel length narrative in one work, but after you've written a few you'll have covered a lot of ground. Second, it is easier to get someone to read your entire short story than to read an entire book manuscript. Third, it forces you to get in the habit of making sure that you don't have dead pages, which are as fatal to novels as to shorts, but which don't stand out to the author in a longer work.
The essential aspect of writing short stories is that it gives you easier access to the "feedback loop", a vital element in learning to do anything better. If you start off by writing novel length works, you'll get almost no useful feedback during the process, even if you seek it.
Consider that if you took a series of writing classes (which is an option), it would be normal for the instructor to have you produce a number of short works (not necessarily fiction). In fact, if you found a lecture only class with no requirement to submit short works, I would suspect it of having little value.
Now, you could learn to write using non-narrative exercises (and experience) and simply study theory and existing narrative works extensively. That is a road that a few successful authors seem to have taken for their first novels. But it isn't what you're suggesting.
So I have to say, yes, I consider it nuts to just "jump write into writing," and hope to sell a completed novel. But then, I also consider it nuts to start writing in the first place
In the end, starting now on your novel won't hurt you. Yes, you'll almost certainly have to go back and learn more about narrative structure, POV, plot issues, plausibility and all that. And you'll have to rewrite most or all of your original text. Maybe you'll even have to struggle with a bunch of deeply ingrained bad habits, like inappropriate plot summary or unreadable dialogue. But you'll have written, and that's the most important thing.
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It is my understanding that the Literary Police arrest people who don't complete and sell a specified number of short stories before attempting a novel.
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no, that's the *Literary* police. The Literacy police arrested George W. Bush after the photo op where he was holding the book upside down. Different branches of the service.
Haven't you read any of Melville's short stories? Way under 500k words.
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"Does anyone know of any semi successful writers who just sort of wrote a damn good novel and went with it...not looking back, so to say."
Yes. Norman Mailer wrote and published his first novel when he was 21, I believe. Of course he is more than semi successful, but then someone who writes a "damn good novel" is not likely to be just semi successful.
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There are a lot of people who've written novels without having become "successful" short story writers first. I don't believe there's any particular need to write short stories first, although oddly that's what I'm trying to do at the moment - my target is to get a few stories published/accepted in pro markets, with the intention of making it easier to find an agent, with the ultimate intention of selling novels by the truck-load.
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I asked the same question about short stories a little while ago. I now have my answer very concretely. I can't advise you, but I can tell you what I've decided.
I'm not writing short stories anymore unless I am specifically inspired by something.
I've written many short stories and had a few published at small-time 'zines but I never became successful at short stories. Honestly, I'm not as good at them as I am at novels. I'm not motivated to put in the work for such a small payoff and so my characters and plots are never as good or deep.
And so, not having been successful with short stories, I have just received a publishing contract for my first novel. It is that that I choose to concentrat eon now. I thin, perhaps, it should have been what I concentratd on all along.
Although to be fair, it was a bit of a high to get my short stories published. They do get you that high a little more quickly and the sales, though not huge, were nice pats on the back. "Hey, you don't suck!"
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Yeah... Good answers, thanks. I have the same problem, Christine. Perhaps it is just a short-coming of mine as a writer, but I am not good at writing short stories, don't care enough about them I guess. Hell, I don't even read short stories (stephen king collections during high school notwithstanding.) So... I mean, I've written a sh**-load of bad prose in my quest to write a novel over the last three years on my way to actually finishing the one I did in January. I think that counts. I like to think I've learned something over those three years of writing. yeah, wouldn't it have been nice to finish one of those, or to have written like 5 complete short stories by now.. but I didn't... i went a different way. But I am very proud of my book, and I am currently editing it, and if the crazy chance of luck ever falls upon me, and this novel gets picked up ANYWHERE (*crosses fingers and whispers tor tor tor tor tor tor)...lolol yeah... I'll be screaming it through the streets of this forum. Anyways. That's what its all about..
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Well, the last major edit I've been doing on my own work involved going through and taking out as many words ending in "ly" as I can stand. I can't say it made anything any shorter---the stories I did it on were under five thousand words---but I thought the end result read better.
Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005
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1. Do you like to read short stories? Do you like to write short stories? Answer those two questions honestly and you'll have YOUR answer. But YOUR answer may not be MY answer.
2. For ANY work, you have to read through it once before you can hope to begin reworking it. This is more true for longer works than anything else. So, read through it as quickly as possible. Don't make any changes. Just think about how coherent the story is. Makes notes ABOUT THE STORY (not the writing) if you want, but not on the manuscript -- you'll want to see these without having to flip through the MS. Then work your way through the MS again making every change that help the STORY. Then prepare a second draft. For your third draft, focus on the writing itself. For longer works don't try to combine the two. King advises the 10% solution. But for me, it's this: 3rd draft = 2nd draft - 10%. Simply, I can't edit an incoherent story.
posted
Actually, I understand that Brandon Sanderson's ELANTRIS was not his first novel. I believe he wrote at least three other novels first, because he heard somewhere that authors can't sell their first few books, and then he put those books away and sent in ELANTRIS because it was his fourth or fifth book.
I've also heard that Tor has purchased a couple of those other books.
I second the appraisal, by the way, ELANTRIS is a wonderful book.
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If the question is about whether you have to sell short fiction to learn to write, then of course the answer is no. Most writers never sell much of the early short fiction they wrote. But that doesn't mean they never wrote short fiction.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
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I'll add two more who sold a novel before writing any short stories and did well.
James Hogan wrote INHERIT THE STARS, sent it off and it sold right away.
Then CJ Cherryh wrote one novel, sent it to Wollheim who liked it sort of and asked if she had anything else. She wrote the first of the Morgaine (?) series in one month. He bought that and the other.
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I heard a lecture by Ray Bradbury where he asserted that the problem is time and effort required to develop good novels. He maintained that it takes over a year to write a novel but you can turn out a short story a week. He said that it would be very hard even for a new author to write 52 consecutive terrible short stories. He discussed the fact that he has written several books which consisted entirely of more or less loosely connected short stories.
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I have a hard time writing short stories, because I don't read them -- I mean, really, I've only read a handful of short stories outside of High School English class, because they tend to bore me. I have the same problem with writing them. I will admit that I see the benefits of writing shorts first, and every once and a while I do try again. I'm a novel girl all the way, and since at this point in my life I'm writing more for fun than profit, I'm not going to try and force myself to do something I really don't want to.
I'm not going to say mine is the best plan, but if I write enough novels and decide I'm seriously missing something that I seriously need, that's when I'll work on my short stories. For now, why bother?
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In high school, I only liked novels and that was all I would write. In college, I decided I was only going to write for fun and was too busy to do much anyway. Then I took a writing class my senior year. It was all modern short stories. I like fantasy novels, so this was quite the challenge. But I really enjoyed the class and felt like I learned a lot about how to write. Now, with only the plan of writing for fun, I am doing short stories with interconnected themes. So, if I like a character, he/she keeps popping up, but its easier to deal with a little bit at a time. Also, I can try totally different styles and techniques. But ultimately, how someone writes is their own process and if they get something good, then that's great. Of course, there are some published novelists who, after sitting through 2 pages of detailed description of what everyone is wearing, I think need to go back and write some short stories just to remember what economy in writing means. Posts: 303 | Registered: Mar 2006
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