posted
Okay, here's what i want to know- In a fantasy novel is it absolutely necessary that I mention a religion if it isn't important to the story directly. I am just reluctant to mention anything because its such a strange subject. I know that when I read a fantasy story, I usually hate when there are all these made up gods, and characters swear by saying, On ___'s bones (insert stupid name in the blank.) but like ive said, that is just personal preference.
Does the story suffer because I don't want to get involved with stupid religion, or would I be all right with just saying God... in general (maybe god..) you see where I'm going with this? I wonder what your feelings are on the subject.
I think ultimately I will have just the smallest mention of it in the story, since, as we know, most civilized cultures have a religion that is a part of their lives.
posted
Tolkien basically got by without it in The Lord of the Rings (I know, people still dispute religion in his works, but in the sense Leaf is asking, he didn't include it.)
That said, I think it really depends on your characters and setting. If there is a large ensemble, it would seem odd that none of them takes their religion seriously (at least to me). If you cover a variety of cultures, it would seem strange not to have one centered around, or at least strongly involved with, religion. In our world, religion is an enormous cultural force. But your world operates by its own rules; if you can suspend disbelief both with your culture and your characters, then there's no rule that says you have to include made-up religious references.
Incidentally, generic references to God are often about as religious as a lot of people get, even if they nominally belong to a strong religious group. They may well go for a period of time the length your novel covers without a serious religious thought or action, depending on the culture they live in (sad though I think this is). So it's up to you to build a world and characters that we believe in so much we don't even notice whatever elements from our world that get left out. Sometimes you can make the strongest religious statements without direct reference to religion.
posted
Mentioning a Supreme Being should be fine as long as it's not denominational. I remember being put off by mentions of Christmas in fantasy novels because a holiday from our world sort of implies it's taking place there even though other things are happening which don't in our world.
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I think it would be impossible to create a well-rounded character without giving at least some thought to their spiritual side. What they believe about life will be the filter through which they view everything they encounter. I imagine you will have magic in this fantasy setting? Magic and its rules are as much about what the character believes as anything else and lot of what the characters consider 'magical' is indicative of their perspective and beliefs.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited March 29, 2006).]
posted
I agree with your point about the cheesiness of made up names and oaths for fantasy gods. But I think you can just refer more generically if you want religion. I suppose you might have difficulties if you have people worshiping different gods and them conflicting, but that doesn't seem to be the case in your story. Hmm- how would you have multiple religions without having problems with made up names turning off readers?
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posted
Well... for right now there really isn't a different culture. Just different... let's say countries. Think norwary, sweeden, finland- they are very similar even though they have their own borders and language. The setting is something similar to that, if we then assume that they all share the same religion (in the book.) And for the most part they do, so you see how it wouldn't really be an issue among people that all have the same ideas about it, mostly?
I suppose some small mention could be made of it, but I don't believe it's necessary to the story to dwell on it.. so I guess that's the answer, right? I'll figure something out I'm sure.
Another question. If, at the end of said book, for reasons that are relevant and fundamental to the story, the character has a "conversation" with the real god (its more complicated than that, you understand..) but it's not outright said, only implied by the 'shade' or form or whatever is representing that god. It's sort of more implied than anything else.
I dunno, I suppose these are things I will have to work out on my own, since it IS my story. But writing these questions out helps me to answer them, as does your responses. So thanks for that.
I want to point out that the best use of 'religion' in a fantasy book is in the sword of truth books, where 'god' is reffered to as 'the creator,' instead of some stupid name or something like mentioned before.
quote: Well... for right now there really isn't a different culture. Just different... let's say countries. Think norwary, sweeden, finland- they are very similar even though they have their own borders and language.
It is probably a better illustration to say "like USA and Canada and England, basically the same just a bit different..."
heh heh heh,
Leave accuracy to the pedants.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited March 29, 2006).]
posted
I would have thought that if your MC is actually going to have a chat with God at the end of the book, it would be a good idea to have some indication, throughout the book, that there is indeed such a God. You don't have to do anything overt or detailed, but you just need to drop the odd reference in - thave the MC pass a temple, have a day when everyone isn't working becausse it's a feast day, that sort of thing. Just because Tolkein didn't include religion doesn't mean you shouldn't (nor does it necessarily mean you should, but Middle-Earth should not be held up as a perfect representation of a fantasy world, because what Tolkein was exploring was mythology and language, and you may not be exploring the same things).
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posted
Tolkien got away with it because, in the period of his universe he wrote in, the connection between Man and the higher powers was a much more direct one. (Gandalf is the equivalent of an angel, for example.) He once said something to the effect that "good and evil weren't as mixed up as they are today," and practicing a religion, as a means of straightening this out, wasn't required of his characters.
The few references to any organized religion involve Morgoth and Sauron, mostly with Sauron setting up something worshipping Morgoth and himself. In Sauron's sojurn in Numenor he took over what seemed a mild and peaceful (and neglected) form of offering gratitude to the gods and made it a complex ritual state-supported worship of Morgoth, building a huge temple and offering sacrifices. (This takes place outside the main line of "Lord of the Rings," an Age before the Age the events take place in.)
I think he failed to develop an elaborate religious structure for his world for more personal reasons, though. He was devoutly Catholic and this flowed through his work in many ways.
*****
But this thread is more about religion in stories in general, not Tolkien in particular, so let me add something along those lines before Tolkien takes over the whole discussion (like some other threads I could name).
Religion plays little involvement in my stories for what I think held true for Tolkien above. Not that I'm religious---I moved from lapsed Catholic to militant atheist to (more recently) tolerant atheist. My characters don't bring up what they feel about their religions because they're a reflection of me, and, like me, they don't have religious belief.
I think I might write stories of beings with powers greater than mortal men---but I don't think they would be religious any more than characters without said powers would be. If one of those with powers wanted worship, it wouldn't be because they were gods---it would be either because they deserved it or their egos got the better of them and they compelled it. (Just like me, actually. But I digress.)
Religion and religious belief must be taken on a story-by-story, character-by-character basis. I wrote a (bad) story a while back, where, partway through, to get some mystic meditation technique across, I had to create a semi-religious philosophical movement that would include that technique, in a way that would put characters who participated in that movement in the life path of my lead character.
But since (for some reason) I try to put a lot of my stories in the same basic background, it meant I had to put that said movement in that background as well. It's not all worked out---but I may use it again somewhere---despite my own religious deficiencies.
posted
There are two different issues here that I'm afraid you are trying to roll into one:
1. Do these characters practice a religion?
2. Should you mention it in the story?
Regardless of number 2, you need to have a religious and spiritual background for each and every one of your characters. If they are all in the same culture, they may all think the same thing in public, but I'd be surprised if privately there wasn't a character or two who didn't quite believe it. Whether it's real or made up, YOU, the author, need to know about it because by its absence or presence, religion has a lot to do with everyone's lives.
The answer to number 2 will flow naturally once you have a complete answer to number 1. When you know who these people are, spiritually, you will know whether or not it comes into their daily lives and how. It's not unrealistic to suppose that they don'tgo around talking about God all the time. I know people who do and people who don't. I try to avoid the subject whenver possible except with my husband. (He's the only one who understands me...I made the fatal mistake of trying to talk to my mom about it once and now she's convinced I'm going to hell and its all her fault. )
If you don't do this, I see it as a case of trying to make the characters and culture fit the plot rather than the plot fitting the characters and culture. There are a lot of good reasons to siply fail to mention religion (or at least, fail to mention it much), but convenience is not one of them.
Oh, but if you do make up a religion, please, please, please don't have gods come to earth and pretend to be characters and then in the climactic moment when the MC can't get out of the situation himself this god in disguise (who was in his party) makes everything better. (What an awful sentence. I should have used that one in the "style vs. grammar" thread.)
posted
If you want to include a god but you also want to separate the concept of that god from what people usually think of, you could probably just use another term. One of my cultures calls God "The Maker." That way you don't have to use a silly name.
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posted
I know that this may sound a little cheesy, but think of it in terms of "alignment". Nobody doesn't have a god. The problem is that most of us are used to people who nominally subscribe to one of several creeds which are usually somewhat nebulous in actual meaning. But in a practical, everyday, "this is right and this is wrong" sense, everyone has a god. Even if that god is just the personal ego.
If you establish that pretty much everyone nominally belongs to the same religion, meaning that they all agree on which group of philosophers, scholars, and prophets has authority to make general pronouncements on the nature and will of the god (or gods) they all nominally believe to be important, then you don't need to delve into the theology of that religion any more than the characters do. It only becomes necessary to make the formal belief system clear if there is a character that disagrees with it in some significant way. You could have a cleric as part of the group, and this person might occasionally deliver sermons or exhortations based on religion, but it isn't required.
What is required is that you clearly portray the morality of your characters. What do they consider to be right and wrong, and why, and to what degree? Some of them might appeal to the statements made by their theology, but whether or not any of them do, it's something you need to clearly express to your readers.
posted
"Does the story suffer because I don't want to get involved with stupid religion"
Are you intending to say that religion is in general stupid? If so, why would you suspect it to make the story suffer?
"If, at the end of said book, for reasons that are relevant and fundamental to the story, the character has a "conversation" with the real god (its more complicated than that, you understand..) but it's not outright said, only implied by the 'shade' or form or whatever is representing that god. It's sort of more implied than anything else." I'm not sure what the shade is implying. That it represents the real god? How can the main character be sure? Going back to Tolkein, Saruman had all the appearance of holiness but it was a couterfeit that even Gandalf did not perceive in time.
posted
Well, what do *you* want to happen in your story? I think if, whatever it is, you flesh it out, it will work fine.
Patricia McKillip, I'm pretty sure, is an atheist. Her Riddlemaster trilogy is one of the finest things I've ever read. There's no trace of any reference to any god in it.
IIRC George Lucas is a fashionable Buddhist. C3PO: "Thank the Maker! This is going to feel so good." (An oil bath.) The only reference to God, I think (I didn't see Episode III and I'm trying to block out I & II.)
posted
Guys, thanks for all the input. It is indeed helping. A few things I want to say (clarify)
I only called it 'stupid religion' because it's giving me such a hard time here that I felt entitled to resort to name calling... thats all. :-)
"Just because Tolkein didn't include religion doesn't mean you shouldn't"
Didn't we have a thread (or a few) where everyone yelled at everyone else about making everything like LOTR??
This story has nothing to do with that story. I really don't like LOTR. I've never even read them. There is no ring, no magic eye, no elves, dwarves or hobbits in this story (okay.. i saw the movies.)
I was just suprised it came up since I didn't mention it, I suppose.
Anyways.. everyone's responses helped... I think I have it figured out what I'm gonna do.
posted
Another way to handle it is to handle the god as you would handle a dragon, a demon, a giant, just another being in the world. One would not worship it, but simply deal with it as another creature, but of surprime power. One then does not deal with a religion of any kind.
I don't think a lot of people, talk regularly about religion in their normal life. while to some, religion is their life outside their work, others don't care much about it and at best, do "lip service" to their religion, if at all. I go months, outside of church, without ever hearing anything about religion.
posted
I'd like to add something else as part of religion-building:
Not everyone views the gods the same way even in regions that share the same national identity. The best example of this is in Egypt where gods with the same names could vary dramatically in their worship and moral alignment depending on where you happened to be and when (like Set).
Another good example is the view of Jesus here in the U.S. Some believe that all you have to do is believe in his atonement and you're saved in heaven, others believe that you aren't saved until you're dead and then only if you've done enough good deeds. And then there are those who are somewhere in the middle: you're saved through grace but God expects you to obey his commandments.
And then there's the Satanists who believe Jesus is a symbol of repression and Satan is a symbol of enlightenment.
[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited March 29, 2006).]
posted
Spirituality is an important part of fantasy, because of it's roots in mythology. Tolkein came up because he is also important to fantasy. (Not that I'm saying he's the most important.) But just understand that his name will come up in any conversation about fantasy. How you feel about religion is going to come out whether you want it to or not. So be sure you at least mean what your saying. I'd be fine with you just saying God, but don't be vauge about the religion. The one thing that bugs me most about Robert Jordan is that he has a clearly defined devil but for God they just have this abstract light. On a related but I'm not sure how note I'd suggest looking up the work of Joseph Cambell. BTW "The Maker" is a silly name.
Edited to remove something that seems insensitive now.
[This message has been edited by Pyre Dynasty (edited March 29, 2006).]
posted
"Master of the Universe" used to be a cool nick for God. But I don't think that the question in this thread was ever really about what the characters should call their God, only about whether Leaf needed to explain their theology.
Like I said, most people get along just fine without worrying too much about theology. But they all have beliefs. Beliefs about the nature of the world they inhabit, beliefs about their own nature, beliefs about right and wrong.
quote:I usually hate when there are all these made up gods, and characters swear by saying, On ___'s bones (insert stupid name in the blank.) but like ive said, that is just personal preference.
My previous comment was trying to address what was said here. I simply meant that instead of making up a name for a God, one could use another term.
Perhaps "Maker" does sound silly to you. But I'm sure "Lord" and "Father" and many of the other names that people all over the world use for God might sound just as silly if they were not so much used. In my experience using other words for God only sounds silly when the writer's approach to religion in general is juvenile. I believe a reader can tell when a writer is being serious with regards to religion, and in such a case I don't think there's anything silly about it.
posted
I have a character in my WIP who is a monk... being a monk shapes his personality, but no where in the story do I feel a need to expound on his theology.
I vote with those who say that if you plan on your character interacting with the God, even if it's just a shadow form of the god, then you are obligated to MENTION the existence of the god from time to time so it doesn't come out of left field when they get to that point.
posted
Now that is funny. Thank you Aalanya for making my point while arguing against it. This is a subjective thing and I'd personally prefer the people I'm reading identify the God they are praying to rather than skirt around the issue by nouning a verb. (Imagine calling your mother birther.)
As Wbriggs brought up, whenever I hear 'The Maker' I think of C3PO and It's silly because to him 'The Maker' is Darth Vader, the man that he was running away from at the time.
posted
Not about gods directly but related. In the old TV SciFi series Firefly they had a whole collection of swear words that the writers created for the show. Most aren't even actual words, and those that are don't have any profane connections in real life. But the characters on the show use them so realistically and so emotionally you can go a great deal of time without even realizing that they're not "real". One of the characters says the equivalent of the "F word" on a somewhat regular basis (which you can't really say on TV) but they can get away with it because it's a completely made up word that only has meaning (bad or otherwise) to the people in the story.
I think this illustrates the point that was made before, that the most important thing when dealing with this kind of stuff is that you as the author take it seriously and write it realistically, and then whatever words or phrase you use will seem natural within the context in which it appears.
posted
AaronAndy- you don't speak much Chinese do you? Ok, to be fair, I don't either. Firefly uses Chinese words and phrases, not made up. If you google, you should be able to find translations for what they say. Posts: 303 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
In fact, one of the phrases from the show, when translated, means "Holy mother of God and all her wacky nephews."
Now in one of my WIP's, I have a main character who is a prophetess. Obviously religion plays a major part in the story. How much is too much? I only explain what's absolutely necessary, since I prefer to let the action carry the story, but the search for wisdom and the question of religious freedom is a major theme in my story.
posted
Do you mean a prophetess as "individual called to proclaim the will of God/gods" or "person who can tell the future with some accuracy"?
I just think that's an interesting question to ask, because we always seem to assume that prescience is intimately connected with divinity. I actually have my own philosophical inclinations on the subject, it has to do with defining intelligence in terms of "predictive adaptation", but I'm not certain that the existing framework of semantics supports the notion or if it is an independent meme.
posted
sholar: Yes, I am aware that they also swear in mandarin. I was referring to their english profanity, which you will find is composed of completely made up (english) words.
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posted
Andy- do you mean "gorram" and "gorramit", which are derivatives of the taking-God's-name-in-vain profanity? -=-=-=- Back to topic. Survivor- I'm using the term prophet/prophetess for my MC in the meaning that she knows all the old prophecies and on occasion receives new ones. They have that divine connection because they have to come from somewhere. Or at least, within the framework of these particular stories.
Of course there may be/may have been people with highly attuned sensitivities who know the future based strictly on subtle clues from their environment. Being able to know and foretell things for the safety of the tribe would be a great evolutionary advantage. But that's not exactly what I'm talking about.
Although the humans are the focal point, there are supernatural forces at work in my story. In the background are the God of Creation and Lady Wisdom. (Yeah, the name is a little cheesy. So the occasional mention is usually just a reference to "The Lady" , or her alternate title, Lady of the Magewood.) A little closer to the foreground are the demons trying to subvert the natural order.
The magic system I use in these stories is dependant on Magewood, a substance with connective properties. Which is to say, it connects the bearer with the world around him or her in such a way as to allow the laws of nature to be bent or altered at will. The prophets take this one step deeper and are aware of the process, and so become aware of the Lady of the Magewood, from which all prophecies come.
So yeah, the religion is a big issue. Particularly since I've also got an Empress, who opposes the prophetess, who's trying to set up a counterreligion, in which SHE is worshipped as a goddess. Her and all her demons who she *thinks* she controls...mwahahaha....
I guess religions in fantasy are only effective if they are necessary to telling the story and are used in tight control. Don't want any literal deux-ex-machina going on, after all.
posted
Well, for gods in which the audience doesn't believe, it's a definite shortcoming. But if you look at "Christian" literature (and scripture), it's full of miracle stories where the entire point of the story is showing that God intervened to help the good guys win.
In the case of fantasy, all you need to do is take advantage of the fact that the gods are defined by you and not your audience's beliefs. Just make it so that your gods lack either the inclination or ability to help the good guys win. Your "Lady of the Magewood" seems sufficiently pantheistic that she wouldn't really care one way or the other about helping specific persons.
quote:Now that is funny. Thank you Aalanya for making my point while arguing against it. This is a subjective thing and I'd personally prefer the people I'm reading identify the God they are praying to rather than skirt around the issue by nouning a verb. (Imagine calling your mother birther.)
Exactly how did I make your point?
Why should people identify the God they are praying to if they believe there is only one God? People in real life don't do that. Christians don't start their prayers "Dear Christian God." Sure many religions do have specific names for God, but see the following:
Jewish names for God often noun verbs: Jehovah-Jireh: God our Provider Jehovah-Mekadsekum: God who Sanctifies Jehovah-Hosenu: God our Maker
Nouning a verb can show honor. It's a way of saying "I recognize what you did for me."
And is it really so hard to imagine calling a mother "birther" or "life-giver"? The word mother means "one who has given birth." For all we know, the ancient word that it comes from may have been the equivalent of "birther." Is it really that difficult to imagine a culture where the two are the same?
The word "Jehovah" is supposed to mean "I am", it wouldn't be inappropriate to say it means "He that truly is". The word "God" in English can best be interpreted as "He to whom we pray".
So point taken. Aalanya.
However, it is also in the nature of humans to eventually turn a denominative phrase indicating a specific person into a simple name devoid of further meaning. Look at the term "Allah". It just means "God", it's derived from the same root as the Jewish term "eloah". But nobody really thinks that "Allah" is merely the Arabic word for "God".
So Pyre has a point. Just not enough of one to justify picking a fight.
posted
Getting here late--again. (Sorry) The definition of religion is different for many people. You could, as Tolkein, and many other sci-fi/fantasy authors have done is take this definition: A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion
I was brought up to believe many different things. For example: Do not take advantage of another's generosity. Basically, don't use people. Don't pretend to be something you aren't. Don't say you are sorry if you don't mean it.
I am Presbyterian by birth. I do believe in God. And in the day to day living I practice other things, such as those mentioned above. I take a very hard line on how I am treated and an even harder line on how my children are treated. These beliefs I have are biblical by origin, and therefore could be said that it is my religion. You don't have to define it so narrowly that you mention deities. Write it the way it comes.
posted
I apologize for the funny remark, Survivor's right this isn't worth fighting about.
But since you asked, you made my point by saying that the terms "Lord" and "Father" might sound silly to others. These are words that I personally use to identify God. If others think that is silly that doesn't affect my beleif in God. Regardless of what word you use someone is going to think it's silly. "Maker" just sounds silly to me that's it.
BTW thanks for the info on nouned verbs, I don't know how I missed this before.
posted
Thanks for the explanation. That makes me feel a little better. I guess as writers our job is to bring people truth as we know it. Some people might not understand it and sometimes we might say the wrong things when trying to get our point across. But the hope is that most people will at the very least see the heart behind the words. Of course, at best they won't even notice the words at all, just the pictures that the words are painting.
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posted
Someone way back up there mentioned the Sword of Truth series as a good example of a religious system, so I couldn't resist adding just a little remark based on the religious system in those books. In that series the "devil" referred to as the Keeper (of the Underworld) is constantly trying to free himself into the world of the living through his disciples (some of the "bad guys"). In this way, though indirectly, he is essentially a real character in the series, or at least, a viable threat, personally affecting the plot and sending minions to do his bidding in the world.
The "god" is referred to as the Creator...and does nothing. (While some of the heros are proclaimed followers of the Creator, it's not like the Creator himself actually actively aids them at any point.) So, while one side of the religious system in the story actually affects the plot, the other side does nothing. There are no counterpart-"minions" of the Creator to help the heros fight the Keeper, no special abilities/magic granted, etc.
I don't know if it's just me, but this always irked me, and I imagine it would in any fantasy-religious setting. To have one side of the good vs. evil battle so entrenched in devious plots and combat while the other side does nothing just seems lopsided. So if the God-figure actively helps (even with information) your heros at some point, and I were reading the story, I would wonder why the counterpart devil-figure isn't actively trying to hinder them as well.
posted
astro, in response to your post... haha... you are kind of right, I never noticed it so black and white before. (I'm currently on book five for.. the third time? something like that) Anyways... The one thing you forgot to mention with that is that the 'good spirits' intervene (think Denna... numerous time..) and the rest of the spirits..
but this is specifically off topic... this was a good thread though. And just for the purpose of closure for all you people, I've figured out what I'm gonna do with regards to religion (but i havent written it yet so I wont say anything about what im doing *just in case.)
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