posted
If you post work in F&F that's in progress, stuff that's not even through the first draft, do the comments help or harm? I know I'm guilty of this too, but it seems like every time I post something that's not finished, I tend to abandon the story not too long after. I just kinda lose interest, or get stuck, or get frustrated, and leave it.
In On Writing, King says that until you're through the first draft, you should be working with a closed door. The first draft should be all you, with no outside influence, and after that you can allow someone else to lay eyes on it and tell you what they think. I'm beginning to think he's right. I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this.
posted
A remark on what King says: Although King's advice is very sage and his book is eternally useful, I don't see some of his "musts" as reasonable for people in the real world. If I stayed behind my closed door each day until the requisite number of words was complete, I would flunk out of grad school and lose my job. The only way I can do this is to set the required word count somewhere around 10.
Anywho, to your question: ask yourself why it is you stop working on them. Does the feedback make you discouraged about your own writing ability? Do people point out 'holes' where you thought your story outline was flawless? Does it not seem nearly as cool as something else that someone suggested in your thread?
My personal reason for not sharing my stuff is that the minute it hits other people's eyes/ears, I feel stupid - my idea looks/sounds stupid to me. It's a type of performance anxiety, I guess.
posted
I don't think Mr. King meant you can't go to work and school while you're writing your first draft. I think he meant you just don't let anyone else get involved--i.e. reading or giving feedback--until the first draft is done.
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I'm not sure that substative feedback on the first 13 is useful unless a first draft is completed or at least well fleshed out in the writer's mind.
Lisa Scottoline says: "Give yourself permission to write a crappy first draft."
She and Steven King are probably right for most people. Get it down on paper. Then in editing, feedback about "info dumps" or transitions or promises made will have more meaning.
posted
I could be wrong, but my observation of the F&F forum is that it is primarily used by new people. The folks who have been here a while tend to have writing groups they submit to. Being new, one of the most exciting things to do is to submit your story for the first time and let other writers critique. (Of course, this excitement is zapped dead like a bug hitting a windshield when the critiques don't go the way you'd hoped... )
I think the new writers tend to submit work on F&F that is only partially complete. I think this is a GOOD thing. Knowing early on where you are going, and where you are going off-track, is useful -- but only if you can rise above taking the critiques personally. When I first joined Hatrack, I had no clue what "POV" was, nor why I was violating it. I would be annoyed with myself if I had waited until I got the entire manuscript finished before opening myself up to the learning experience of being critiqued.
[This message has been edited by Elan (edited September 22, 2006).]
posted
I read once that Hank Williams [Sr.] would throw out a line to the people around him, evidently to see what they would come up with. How much this helped him, I don't know. ("Today I passed you on the street" reportedly produced a reply of "And I smell your stinking feet.")
I don't see why a writer shouldn't throw something out in a similar way. There could be some aspect of the idea or the First Thirteen that the writer hasn't considered, that takes someone-who-can-see-the-back-of-your-head to point out...
posted
I post things that are the best I can do. After all, if I get comments saying "you should fix this thing you already knew about and knew how to fix," that doesn't do me any good.
Posts: 2830 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
one of the problems with television is that it's focus-grouped. i can't imagine that writing could be any different. for the first draft, at least, and i would hope until you see that you yourself cannot possibly make the writing any better, this is your ship. you're the captain.
i also advocate at least six months before revising, especially in response to criticism. new writers need feeback, to be sure, but they also need to learn to trust themselves, and how to weigh feedback accordingly.
posted
At one time, etiquete stated that a story be finished before posting the first 13. I don't know what happened to that.
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Nothing we mere mortals say is gospel, especially on writing. We live in a free country (and yes, this applies to those of you who happen to live outside the U.S., unless you live in North Korea or something) and no one's holding a gun up to your head and forcing you to use the advice of one person or another. What I'm trying to say is that you need to pick and choose what advice you think is useful to you. Sure, there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong" advice, and since we're all worried about getting published we want to make sure we get the "right" advice, but I think some of us here might be so worried and so convinced that there's a certain, acceptable way to write, that I think we tend to lose sight of things.
posted
I don't mind people posting fragments from unfinished works, but I prefer it if they plan to make a serious effort at completing the story.
I personally hate like heck the "I was doodling in class today and pulled these thirteen lines out of my ass... " variety of posts. That sort of nonsense is a waste of everyone's time.
posted
I have to second Elan there. I tend not to respond to the "I had this great idea and wrote 13 lines. How do they sound?" type of requests. Mostly because the writer has no idea what happens next and can't really respond to any feedback or questions about what s/he is trying to say that s/he gets. If you know where you are going even in very rough terms feedback is probably more helpful than if you don't.
Posts: 1210 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I posted the first 13 lines of my completed novel in F&F after it had been through five beta readers (none of whom are writers, but they're great readers and give very useful feedback). I found the input I got from F&F to be quite useful. The different point of view I found there helped me see the whole chapter with a different perspective and the revision sings. It wasn't bad before, but there were little tweaks here and there folks suggested that were a great help to me. I'd do it again. But to post 13 lines of something unfinished seems a waste of both the author's time and the board's, IMO. I mean, first drafts rarely resemble a finished product, and I don't think anything should be posted until you've polished it as well as you possibly can (and polished it repeatedly - mine had been polished probably six or seven times not including the polishes it got after each of the five beta readers sent me their input). You wouldn't go outside in holey underwear and nothing else, would you? (Well, *I* wouldn't anyway!) Putting unpolished fiction online is the same kind of thing. Put the "clothes" (polish) on your fiction before letting it run around in public, don't let it run around "naked" (in any shape less than the best you can do)! That's not a nice thing to do to your "children"!! JMO.
That said, is there a forum here for people who are "stuck"? Perhaps that's what this poster needs rather than a "first 13 lines" kind of thing. Or perhaps I don't fully understand the purpose of the F&F thread (which I thought was to help you polish or see flaws in fairly finished stuff). If you get STUCK somewhere, even in an early draft, sometimes it's helpful to toss ideas around with other writers. I do that with my betas sometimes, but it would be nice to do it with fellow writers. I'm still learning how this site works and what's on it, so maybe I've just missed that thread. Where is it?
posted
You know, Lynda, that's a great idea. I think it would be cool to have a separate forum for Brainstorming and De-Blocking. It could be distinctly different from F&F, which is for more polished openings that need feedback and revision, and also call for readers for the whole work. The B&DB could be a place to air ideas, ask for brainstorming, or get help when stuck with something. Hmmm.... What do other people think?
Posts: 470 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Cool! I'd love such a forum, and it would probably be a fun place as well as quite useful! Who do we talk to about setting it up? I like the idea of being able to ask for "dedicated readers" there, too.
look in the upper right under "Navigation" for info
every LH member has a right to their own forum where they can workshop their writing. usually, though, they have to build a relationship with the other members before they get much response.
posted
Mike! I spent WAY too much time at your site today, and just as much time at Simon's "Hal Spacejock" site! Thanks so much for the link! I'm now richer by one yTimer, yWriter, submission tracking software (thanks to Simon's site) - all FREEWARE! I also learned a lot and had a great time browsing your site. I gave both your site and Simon's a big mention on my blog (www.abraxan.blogspot.com) despite the silly Blogger software being grumpy today. Anyway, thanks bunches for telling me about those sites (haven't had time to look at the last one you mentioned yet, but I'll get there!)
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JMO.
