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Author Topic: Immediately Unsympathetic Hero
AstroStewart
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While writing a sequel for a fantasy novel that's in the last stages of editting (before I send it out to agents/publishers) I've come across a scene and need some feedback. The question being, would this action on the part of a protagonist make him immediately unsympathetic or not.

The situation is this. For various reasons, he's enlisted the help of a woman who he's just met, and they're essentially introducing each other. He used to hunt dragons for a living, and when he tells her about that she makes an offhand remark about dragons being mindless beasts. Now in the first novel, (long story short) he befriended a dragon who ends up dying to protect him / "the heros" / save the world / etc.

So he *really* doenst like this offhand comment, and he tells the woman that if she ever calls dragons mindless beasts again, she'll regret it. Just because of the kind of spitfire personality she is, she says it again, just to see what he'll do. My initial reaction into his character as a kind of reluctant hero - rough around the edges guy, is that he would slap her, hard enough to knock her to the ground (or something similar) and repeat his warning, more firmly this time.

My problem is this, this is a "good guy" who is just very touchy about the general idea that dragons = evil, and who lost the best friend he ever had (the dragon) for a good cause. And he DOES do alot of morally grey-area things. But I'm worried that a physically (and magically) stronger man slapping down a woman for "talking back" will immediately make too many readers not sympathize with him anymore. While I think it's true to his character to do so (and maybe half-heartedly apologize / explain why he overrated to her later, tell her the story about his friend, the dragon) I don't want readers to just stop caring about him.


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oliverhouse
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I don't know your character, so I can't judge well; but generally speaking, I think you're right. A man smacking a woman for talking back just rings all the wrong bells. Better to have him do nothing now, and later to make him do something terrible to her, or to let something terrible happen to her that he could have prevented.
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Survivor
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It depends on what he does next.

If he apologizes, or does anything else that would indicate that he doesn't feel really strongly about this, then you've lost me. If he felt strongly enough about it to hit her, then he's not going to apologize anytime soon if ever, nor is he going to have much interest in having anything more to do with her. If he doesn't feel that strongly about it, then he mostly hit her because he likes to hit women.

If he stands his ground and makes her apologize (or get out of his sight), then I'll buy that it was really that important to him. But that's just me, I think that having strong convictions is important to a hero. In any case, if his feelings are so easily suppressed that he can turn around and apologize for them, then I'm inclined to think he could easily have restrained himself from hitting her if he'd been so inclined.


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kings_falcon
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I agree with Survivor and, for me, it would also depend on what he had done before.

If he has magical ability, can he do something unpleasant (giving her a giant case of the itches is something that comes to mind) as a warning before reverting to hitting?

Does he have to work with her because she has some knowledge or skill that he needs? If not, why would he continue to work with her if she'd just called his best friend a mindless slobbering brute?


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hoptoad
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me too.

Note: Did he indicate that she would regret it immediately?
Most warriors aim to cultivate a sense of detachment, an kind of emptiness, when they go into battle. For her to see him enter such a state toward her may do more convincing than a slap and an apology and it leaves him whole. Has she dealt with warriors and slayers before?

Another thing about being a successful heroic character is being able to pick which battles to fight. He may very well enter this battle-ready frame of mind and exit it almost immediately knowing that she is not a worthy fight. Most comments like the one she made are born out of either ignorance or stupidity and your hero would see that.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 02, 2006).]


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wbriggs
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He lost me when he threatened her over a thoughtless comment.

You see, this doesn't just show he cares about dragons. It shows that he's willing to threaten someone over what's essentially an 8-year-old's dispute: your dog's stupid. No, he's not, you're the one that's stupid. 8-year-olds sometimes hit each other for this sort of thing, but not adult men that we can admire.


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AstroStewart
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Well the point is not that it's a thoughtless comment. It's a stereotype about dragons that she's perpetuating. And he *has* to work with her. It's a long story but she's immune to a kind of magical disease that is spreading, and he's taking her somewhere so they can try to find out why/how she's immune in attempt to cure it. In fact, it wouldn't be a stretch at this point to say that he's forcing her to come with him. They're strangers after all. She isn't resisting too fiercely because she's seen the extent of his magical power, but she's something of a prisoner. The protagonist has a tendancy to look at the bigger picture and accept sacrifices. ie if he has to kidnap someone / kill someone / etc in order to save 100 people, so be it.

As far as survivor's comment about apologizing, it's not that he would apologize right away. But when they eventually get where they're going, she tells the story to one of his friend there, and that friend talks to him privately and tells him he should apologize, but he refuses. What he does conceed is that he should tell her the story about his dragon friend so she understands his reasoning. (The details are still sketchy in my mind cuz I haven't gotten that far yet, other than outline form)

The reader should know by this point (if past actions matter) about several incidents in which the protagonist has risked his life to save strangers who are in lethal trouble, so he's a "good guy" in general, but he kinda acts instinctively, with a warrior's instincts.

If it's that much of an impact to have him actually slap her, I can always rewrite it so that she can tell by the deadly look on his face how serious he is about badmouthing dragons, and have her take back her remark, but it's more in her character to prod him with another remark.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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I'd recommend that you have him either pin her down (or push her up against a wall?) and explain why she's wrong, or just decide that she's an idiot and ignore her.

If he's the kind of guy that would explain eventually, it might be good to have him do it right then, so the reader is brought up to speed on the truth about dragons and the fact that not everyone knows that truth.

If he's not the kind of guy that would explain eventually, you could just have him pin her down and tell her that she doesn't know what she's talking about, that this isn't some kind of game. So you hint to her and the reader about the truth, but you don't tell it right then, you just let him be very grumpy about having to tolerate her idiocy.

Let her be the one the reader considers unsympathetic because she eggs him on, but he's strong enough to not let her get to him.


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hoptoad
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hear, hear
(or is it; here here...?)

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AstroStewart
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Good thought Kathleen, I think him pinning her down and telling her she doesn't know what she's talking about or something is definitely the way to go.
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sholar
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When you mentioned slapping her, I thought of the scene in Princess Bride where Wesley raises his hand to slap her and then stops and says next time... Shows self restraint but also his seriousness.
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Faye
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If the character's action is justified in his own eyes, and you've done a sufficient job of building this character for the reader, then the reader will forgive him for it. And maybe he'll be more charming because he isn't a perfect good guy.
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J
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I agree with Katherine et. al. I think sudden, unexpected menace (grabbing, pinning, or even an "icy look that radiated danger") is more interesting and more effective than just smacking the woman. It also takes care of the sympathy problem you're worried about, and could have the opposite effect of making your hero more likeable . . . or at least more interesting.

Take the Wizard's First Rule. Actually, ignore the awful writing of that book, and the unbearable cheesiness, and the fingernails-on-chalkboard dialogue, and the straight-from-harlequin romance, and concentrate on some of the surprisingly well-done plot devices. At one point towards the beginning of the book, a character "Zed" (who the reader is hinted to suspect is an incredibly powerful wizard) finds himself in a similar situation with a woman of inferior power. Instead of smacking her, he puts his finger under her chin and delivers an unmistakable threat. It's pretty effective, and it doesn't make the reader like the character any less. If anything, it makes him more interesting.


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Lynda
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I think the slap has to go. Pinning her against the wall, or him just stomping around in an obvious rage would be better than him hitting her. What I see him doing is going into a cold rage and speaking very slowly, trembling with anger (perhaps), obviously controlling himself as he explains to her how mistaken she is. THAT kind of reaction is one that might get her attention. She won't listen to or believe him if he slaps her, and she might not go along with him on this quest where they need to work together (would you go on a quest with a guy that slapped you? I wouldn't).

Lynda


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Grimslade
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I was thinking of the scene in Princess Bride myself. The whole "That was a warning Princess, the next time my hand flies on its own. Where I come from there are penalties when a woman lies." This works in TPB because you have had two scenes showing that the Dread Pirate Roberts/Wesley was a "decent fellow". If you just take the scene starting with the Battle of Wits, DPR/W is really unsympathetic.

The problem is your scene is really early in the book. There is no time to really put the MC in a sympathetic light. I think a simple intimidating gesture with a "you know nothing of dragons". You are already hamstrung by the fact that he is kidnapping this woman.


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J
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Another device might be to communicate the threat through her reaction instead of his action. That way you aren't focusing on him being bad.

Poorly written example:

"Dragons are evil," she said.
He raised his hand with such fluid speed that she leapt backwards, as if to avoid a blow. His finger uncurled, pointing at her. "You speak in ignorance. You won't do it again. First and last warning."

[Edited to replace "rand" with "hand"]

[This message has been edited by J (edited November 03, 2006).]


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Survivor
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I don't know that you can go for "charming" when he's kidnapping this woman. Or rather, you can but that just makes him seem even worse than if he were to admit that he's already doing something bad.

If he's already kidnapping her, then I have no bones with him knocking her down just to point out that she's not in a position to be needling him. The consideration that he grants her in allowing her to accompany him under her own power is plenty of demonstration that he isn't into abusing her for fun. To allow her defiance is merely showing off, or perhaps a dishonest portrayal of his motives.

As for apologizing, if he does all this, he should only "apologize" in the sense of stating that what he did was wrong. And the only reason for him to do that would be if she were trying to make out that it weren't. So, technically not an apology.

But make no mistake, the kidnapping itself is a sufficient act of violence that hitting her for explicitly disobeying him is almost negligible in comparison.

In this case, you have to start with him seeming like a bad guy, then do the work of convincing us that he's a good guy. The alternative is to have him persuade her to accompany him voluntarily by explaining the reason from the outset.


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LaceWing
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How about this: he pokes her, just stabs his finger into her breastbone and holds it there, glaring and about to speak, while she is off-balance. She stumbles and falls. Then she sees he's glad she fell and she is unsure if he meant to do it. Let the reader be unsure, too. Depends partly on your POV if you can pull it off, I suppose.
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AstroStewart
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Just wanted to clarify to all these great suggestions and feedback, that this is not early on in the book. I'm not sure where some of you got that idea. First of all, this is a sequel, and he was one of the main protagonists in the first volume. Secondly, even in this novel, the scene I'm talking about would take place (I haven't actually gotten there yet, just my outline) a good 20,000 words in, at least. All the while, he is one of the main protagonists, even if he is a little rough around the edges.

On further consideration though, I don't think he would actually hit her, not to the kind of comment she would make. He might use some magic to dangle her helplessly in the air, or pin her against a tree and explain coldly and harshly that it's not a joke, but he wouldn't just smack her in response. It's too brutish, even for him.


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Survivor
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I don't really see the point in masking the basic violence of his actions. To me it makes him seem dishonest. The simple reality of the situation is that she is cooperating because of the threat of violence. Your desire to avoid that injures the character's integrity and plausibility.
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J
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. . . or it recognizes that he has been socialized to some degree or other, and demonstrates that he feels some (even if low) degree of internal restraint against doing violence to other humans.
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MommaMuse
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My two cents...tee jee jee

I'm not as up-in-arms about a man smacking a woman that is being a B---h. I sort of like the idea that if he does knock her down, he would stand over her, maybe clenching his fists for a moment before making himself calm down. Then he can admit that maybe he shouldn't have done that, with out actually apologizing.

Personally, I think that if you feel that he would do that, then that is what he would do. I would only change it if it comes off with a different feel than you intended it to.

Did that last bit make any sense? I know what I mean to say, but does anyone else? LOL


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Robert Nowall
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It's more difficult to write of a hero who's only slightly unsympathetic, than it would be to write of one who's mostly unsympathetic.

I'm reminded of the character Ethan Edwards (John Wayne) in the movie The Searchers. His actions fit the definitions of "heroic," but his motivations certainly didn't seem so. He spends years in a quest to find his lost niece, held captive by Indians...but only so he can kill her because she's been somehow "contaminated" by living with the Indians. Hardly the picture of "hero" here...


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Leigh
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To everyone who who has already spoken about it, I don't have a problem if the MC slaps the ignorant girl. I feel that the justification was done in the right tone and context and that if the MC said afterwards about dragons not being mindless beasts, then I wouldn't have a damn problem with the scene, but then again I am my own self and that's my opinion and others have different opinions.

It's weird, I can see both sides of the story, not the plot story or devices but the result and the slap actually happening. Maybe it's because I have an open mind on such things.


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hoptoad
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the slap - to me - makes him seem weak and particularly vulnerable to his own emotions

in other words — emotionally weak and self-righteous

oddly enough, that is a common combination of traits

In this situation, she is trying to get a reaction and succeeds.
BOOOOOM! balance shifts in her favour
She now knows how to get at him — stupid man loses

question: how would he react if she slapped him back?
Have you really explored all the 'so whats' and what ifs' in this scene?

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 05, 2006).]


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Survivor
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I don't know if everyone's on the same page, but we've already established that she is accompanying him based on the threat of force. He tells her not to do something, she does it on purpose for no other reason than to defy him. If he was really angry, he might have hit her the first time. As it is, he's simply reminding her that his not beating the shit out of her is based on her compliance with his demands.

If he simply decides to tie her up and gag her, I'm okay with that too. That does involve a bit more inconvenience for him, and it would probably involve at least some pain for her, but it's not acting in denial of the basic realities of the situation.


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hoptoad
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As to what page we are on, Astrostewart can judge. He asked opinions as to whether it makes the MC unsympathetic, I say that it does not necessarily, in my opinion, make him unsympathetic, it just make him look a bit stupid.

quote:

we've already established that she is accompanying him based on the threat of force.

I don't think that is established. Astrostewart, why is she accompanying him? She is barely resisting. Why? When it comes down to it, why is she going? At some level does she believe its the right thing to do? Was the threat of force his first choice? I doubt it, unless he is shallow and as thoughtless as she is supposed to be. Surely he explained the situation first in the hope she would come willingly?

That is the perspective from which I am making my comments.

Also, he may be 'kidnapping' her BUT he has to protect her too. She must know that, mustn't she?

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 07, 2006).]


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EricJamesStone
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quote:
Just wanted to clarify to all these great suggestions and feedback, that this is not early on in the book. I'm not sure where some of you got that idea.

I got it from the thread title: "Immediately Unsympathetic Hero." From that title, I incorrectly thought you were talking about a character who is immediately made unsympathetic after being introduced. In looking at your post more closely, I see that you never said the scene was near the beginning of the book, but if the scene is not one of the first in which we see the hero, then I really don't see much of a problem. If you've already built sympathy for the hero, even the original scenario is unlikely to make us lose it. However, I do agree that having him grab and hold her while emphasizing his point is better than hitting her.

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AstroStewart
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To answer hoptoad's questions, she's accompanying him because she doesn't really have a choice. He tried to explain the situation, but she frankly didn't believe him, and tried to escape. The level of his magic is far beyond hers, though, so it's quite easy for her to keep her in line. It is true that, based on his story, she knows he doesn't mean to harm her, that she is important to him, which is perhaps part of the reason she makes the comment (if she does, the whole scene has yet to be written so it may or may not make it into the final draft).

I can see how you mistook my intention in writing "immediately unsympathetic." I didn't mean that this is our first look at the protagonist, and I don't what to make him unsympathetic. Essentially what my question is, is if we have a protagonist that may otherwise seem like a good guy, would a scene like this immediatly make him unsympathetic to a large portion of readers?

I still haven't decided exactly what kind of comment she will make, nor the specifics of his reaction to it. I just wanted to get some feedback beforehand if him hitting her to the ground is something I should specifically try to avoid.


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J
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I find that once I've made a commitment to like a protagonist, he or she gets all kinds of benefit of the doubt. In fact, once I've committed to liking a protagonist, they can do things that I would have found unlikeable early in the book and not only will I still like them, I will approve of the action.

Example: If Pippin and Merry had physically threatened someone for verbally insulting Frodo at the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring, they would not have been very likeable. When they do exactly that at the end of the Return of the King, it only makes me like them more.

Example 2: If someone punches their adult son in the face for being "disrespectful," I would tend not to like that character. If that someone is John Wayne, I think it's hilarious and it makes me like the character more (this works without reference to a particular movie because Rooster Cogburn, Marshall Cahill, J.B. Booker, G.W. McClintock, Hondo, Big Jake McCandles, and most other John Wayne characters are identical in essence, and differ only in details. You know what "character" you are dealing with once you know that John Wayne is playing him).


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franc li
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Alternately, some women are not funny to see hit, while others are. Lara Flynn Boyle, is apparently funny to hit. Julia Roberts and Reese Witherspoon perhaps less so.
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Survivor
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If you've established that he has a good reason for taking her and that he has made a reasonable attempt to explain this reason as a means of securing her cooperation, then I don't have a problem with the kidnapping or any consequent violence implicit in that act.

If he expressed his regret at the imposition represented by the kidnapping, that covers everything which is pursuant to the kidnapping, so there is no need for a separate apology.


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