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Author Topic: Sword sharpening
PatEsden
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I am interesting in knowing how a double-edged sword would be sharpened now a days. I am familar with sharpening knives with a stone and then honing it. Are swords done any differently?

aka: Kickle

[This message has been edited by PatEsden (edited December 03, 2006).]


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Survivor
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Yes, no and maybe.

What kind of sword are you talking about? What material? How will it be used?

For instance, say I've got a fairly high-tech sword made out of 5 GP steel. You can't sharpen something like that with a stone, you need an industrial laser to do it right. The plus side is that it probably came pre-sharpened so sharpening it isn't really your problem anyway.

Generally speaking, if you do have the kind of sword that can be sharpened using a stone, you have a large stone which is fixed in position and then you draw the blade across the stone in some manner, but this varies a lot by blade geometry and by tradition.

If you're not a traditionalist and just want to get a sword length blade sharp quickly, you can use a tool that has a pair of carbide blades set at a precise angle to each other. With just a couple of strokes, you can get the blade deadly sharp, though not razor sharp (why you'd need a razor sharp sword eludes me, but some people like that sort of thing).

Anyway, I guess that all of those answers are at least a bit different.


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PatEsden
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Survivor, I thought you’d be the person to help me with this question.
I was going to call the sword a broad sword only because most readers know what one looks like. What I need is a sword that is heavy enough to easily lop off a body part such as a head or a leg (in this case the character has a choice of what they want lopped off).
The sword is a family relic. Its exact age in unimportant to the story—it could be ancient , but most likely not modern. It would have come from the British Isles.
What I am writing are a couple of paragraphs where a character (who is familiar with swords) checks over a sword that hasn’t been used for sometime. Perhaps sharpening it isn’t what I should have him doing, though your description of a fixed stone would work nicely for me.


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Survivor
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Okay, if it's a family heirloom and he's just examining it, he definitely wouldn't sharpen it. He might clean and oil it, I'd presume he'd have the proper tools for that at hand. But if he were wanting to, say, establish whether it were the sword used to decapitate his fiance's ancestor back in the day, he could have compelling reasons to hold off on even that much.
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Survivor
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Is it still proper usage to distinguish between fiance and fiancee?
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tchernabyelo
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In the UK, most military swords after the start of 18th century are single-sided, because by that stage they were only used as cavalry weapons. There were personal swords, still, though, which could have been double-edged, but they are unlikely to really be heavy enough to do what you're talking about. Indeed, you pretty much are talking about a medieval weapon if you need it double-edged. If you can get away with single-edged, then 18th and 19th century cavalry swords are perfectly adequate to the task.

In terms of sharpening - most people wouldn't have access to anything more than a whetstone (I have one for gardening tools). Butchers shops will still have grinding wheels - we recently had a bunch of kitchen knives re-sharpened at a butchers, but I suspect if you took a sword in and asked them to do it, they'd contact the police.


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PatEsden
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My character is lucky, he is a wealthy marble sculpture, so he has an extensive workshop and can have pretty much any equipment he wants.
There's no particular reason the sword has to be double edged.
The more I think about it, I doubt he would store it in bad condition, so I suspect wiping it off and looking at it may be as far as I can go. It just doesn't sound as interesting.

For fun, I'll ask my butcher and see how he reacts

aka: kickle

[This message has been edited by PatEsden (edited December 04, 2006).]


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J
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When gunsmiths want get a real good look at gunmetal (or clean it to perfection for glass bedding), they use 0000 grade steel wool to clean without damaging the metal or the finish. Don't know if that suits your purpose, but it would scour the sword clean for examination without scratching the blade.
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Robert Nowall
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I would've thought a sword would be sharpened like any other knife or metal-thingy-that-needs-an-edge...with a whetstone or grindstone. But that's a layman's view...I have no specialized knowledge and couldn't even put a good edge on my now-very-dull big butcher's knife.

Googling "swords" + "sharpening" produced more than two hundred thousand possibilities...the first page looked to have some solid information on some of the sites.

[edited to insert a missing word]

[This message has been edited by Robert Nowall (edited December 04, 2006).]


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Survivor
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Your character is a wealthy marble sculpture, eh? What will a man do, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul? Or was he always a sculpture? But that makes me wonder how he became wealthy...and round and round we could go.

Let me reiterate the point, only a certifiable lunatic would take a valuable heirloom like a genuine medival sword and sharpen it. If the sword has been kept in conditions that allow it to still be sharp, that's all well and good, but if it isn't, then you don't go filing it down further.

He shouldn't buff the sword either, even though some people just might do something like that. But if he's a serious collector, then he wouldn't. The thing about polishing with ultra-fine steel wool is that it does involve a small amount of metal transfer, you can verify this by using brass wool and seeing how it gives your steel relic an interesting gilded sheen. An anti-corrosive reagent to stop any rusting or whatever is probably as far as he should go...even if there were actual rust visible on the blade.

This all presumes that his primary interest is in preservation of it as an heirloom, if he wants to use it as a sword...well, presumably the dang thing must be magical or something, because otherwise using it as a sword is pretty dumb. If it's a magical sword, tell us that first.


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goatboy
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Would you oil a sword like that? It would be from a time before stainless steel and it seems it might need some protection. Oil, or perhaps an oil and wax mix?
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PatEsden
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Sorry double posted.

[This message has been edited by PatEsden (edited December 04, 2006).]


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PatEsden
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Survivor you make me laugh at myself: sculptor/sculpture. It's almost as good as the time I used genital instead of gentle.

The sword it not magical. It has been used by the same family for centuries for occasional sacrifices--lopping off human body parts.

Like goatboy, I'm curious about the oil. And what sort of cloth would be used to wipe the sword?

aka:kickle


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JBSkaggs
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cleaning and oiling a sword improperly can ruin the value. Say dropping a $5000 blade to about $125. The stuff on the blade on trully unique and rare swords are sometimes as valuable as the blade itself.

Particularly if the blade still has traces of manure, blood, particulr types of fat etc. Polishing a blade may eliminate important scratches and marks that gives the blade it's value. For example a sword with a bullet notch from a famous battle could be damaged or even elimnated from the blade during polishing. Thus eliminating the one valuable mark.

A real case in point

A 16th century katana made by the Mizumi family. Value $1600. Until there was discovered three blade cuts and one arrow notch and most cool of all a grocery list tucked behind the tsuba (handguard) the blade's vale jumped to almost $3800 because of the military histories attached to the scars.

Another case in point. A old mason sword circa 1790's was "restored" pre restoration value $9,800 after restoration $350.

But most swords today are cold ground with carbide drums, wet lubricated to eliminate tempering coloration.

A solid sword that accidentally caused dismemberment was the heavy calvary sabre. It was used commonly as a dueling weapon and battlefield weapon well into the 1900's. One particular duel in spain in 1903 resulted in an accidental decapitation.

This would aso be common among british especially in the Islands.

JB Skaggs

[This message has been edited by JBSkaggs (edited December 04, 2006).]


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Robert Nowall
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I suppose sharpening the sword would depend on whether you were going to sell it on eBay, or just use it as a fighting weapon. (I wonder what a magical sword would fetch on eBay. Anybody ever put one up for sale there?)
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Survivor
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So...we're talking about a medieval sword, then.

What is our sculptor planning on doing with this sword? If he wants to "conserve" it, then he shouldn't go any further than minimalist intervention dealing with actual corrosion. If he's got someone tied up in the cellar waiting for some limb lopping, then maybe he'd give it a quick pass with a blade sharpener. If he's just trying to remove any evidence of past wrong-doing, then maybe he'll give the blade a good, through cleaning. Or just possibly he wants to subject the blade to forensic analysis, in which case he won't want to touch it or even breathe on it.


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Lynda
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The heck with the sword, how did this marble "sculpture" (sculptor) become wealthy??? Most sculptors (I'm one) are NOT wealthy, and it's a rare marble sculptor who's "wealthy" these days. You can buy marble sculptures mass-produced (hand-carved but not one of a kind) from Italy or China for not too much money anymore, so American (or British) marble sculptors do well to break even or barely make a living. I'm a bronze sculptor, and I do "okay" (and I'm one of the most successful sculptors many artists know, so I've been told). Those who are "wealthy" either started out that way, have a wealthy spouse, or do a LOT of the monumental-size stuff or have created something small so unique and inexpensive that EVERYONE wants one (think Tim "Frogman" Cotterhill whose whimsical frog bronzes sell for $300-500 for the small ones, so are affordable to most people, and are so cute, everyone wants them - but Tim's a rarity). So do your research on the sculpting business too, not just swords.

Thought you might want to know this stuff. Good luck with the sword stuff.

Lynda (http://www.thesculptedhorse.com)


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tchernabyelo
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quote:
sell for $300-500 for the small ones, so are affordable to most people

This would be a new definition of "affordable" and/or "most people", in my world.


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PatEsden
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Lynda, with the correct sacrifices a sculptor can become wealthy and inherit cool swords, but there is always a price.


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kings_falcon
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I would find the price more interesting than the resulting amassing of the wealth.
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Inkwell
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To be honest, I see no reason why the blade couldn't have retained its edge from whatever time period it hailed from. If you carefully research how such a weapon might have been stored for a long period of time (as in, a very dry or possibly airtight place, wrapped in oilcloth to prevent rusting) you could weave that fact into your story.

If, for example, your character finds a sealed chest behind a crumbling wall in his attic, and a well-preserved blade inside said chest, it wouldn't be unbelievable for that sword to be as sharp as the day it was hidden. Moreover, if you back up the exposition with realistic scientific precedence, your readers will go along for the ride.

However, you must be very specific with the type of the sword to determine the most likely time period in which it was hidden/stored. For example, a Roman gladius or spatha from the early centuries A.D./C.E. would be a more unlikely find (intact and usable, at least) than a 14th-century Oakeshott type 10 broadsword, simply because the method of preserving the latter would likely retain a greater chance of longevity.

If I were you, I'd pick a specific sword type from a later period (with a greater chance of excellent storage methods, in terms of preservation), give it enough history to distinguish it from any other museum piece (such as a peculiar symbol or word engraved on the blade...or on the tang, which the main character only discovers after he takes the sword to an expert for study), and go from there. Just be careful not to overwhelm the reader with too much information. Methinks not everyone is as fascinated with the nitty-gritty elements of ancient sword collecting, care, and identification as I.


Inkwell
-----------------
"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous

[This message has been edited by Inkwell (edited December 05, 2006).]


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franc li
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I attended a medieval style feast at the home of a sculptor who did work in marble once. It was a member of the Fairbanks family, and while they may not have been wealthy by some measures, they were very successful and did well enough to have a better than average home. I was impressed. They had collected a fair number of medieval looking antiques, but no magical swords of which I was aware.
http://www.avardfairbanks.com/

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Lynda
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Most artists (who can afford it) are also collectors of various things (art, artifacts, antiques, etc.) so you will usually find a lot of interesting things in an artist's home. Many artists have to to trade art for what they want rather than purchasing, but the appreciation of cool or beautiful stuff just compells us to find ways to collect them.

Trust me, $300 for a bronze of any kind (other than a cheesy ripoff Remington from Costco that was cast in China - don't get me started) is an EXCELLENT price. My bronzes start at $475 and go up to $5000 (at the moment), and those prices are awfully reasonable, given the cost of casting bronze these days. Every step in the bronze-making process is hand-labor, nothing mechanized at all about it, so you're paying for labor as much as anything else. With marble, you're paying for a one of a kind piece (hopefully) or at least something carved in real marble (rather than cast marble). The artist is usually the only one who works on the marble sculpture, so you often can buy a marble piece for less than a bronze of a similar size, simply because there are fewer hands involved in the process of creating it. Bronze endures over time better than marble does (which deteriorates if exposed to weather - go look at art that's been outside for years and see whether a bronze or a marble piece still has the detail it started out with - the bronze will win, unless the piece is like the Medieval bronze of St. Peter in the Vatican where people have kissed his right foot for many many centuries and worn off the detail between his toes.)

PatEsden, if you know how I can become wealthy as a sculptor, just let me know, okay? I'm more successful than most of the artists I've met, yet if my husband didn't make a good living, I'd be living in squalor right now - with a great art collection, but still, squalor. Most people have no clue about the inherent value of art. They don't understand why artists charge more for their art than WalMart does for a figurine of a similar size. That figurine was probably cast in China in the thousands and thousands by people who make very little money, and it was probably a ripped-off design anyway (I know whereof I speak here - China ripps off bronze and resin sculptors designs, as well as painters' designs, all the time. We have artist-run protective organizations to try to stop it, but it's very difficult to manage.) Those who think they've bought a Remington at Costco or Sam's are sorely mistaken. They're castings of castings and usually bad castings at that. I've even seen one where a COBRA was put in front of the bucking horse! I'm sorry folks, but Remington never put a cobra in one of his bucking horse bronzes - if anything, it was a rattler. Cobras aren't native to the American West. Whatever country you're from, you should try to support your own country's artists and not buy ripoffs from China.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. Just wanted to make sure that the art angle was properly covered in your story.

Lynda


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tchernabyelo
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I never said, and didn't mean to imply, that $300 was not an "excellent price".

I remain unconvinced that it is "affordable" for "most people".


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Survivor
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It's affordable for most Americans, how about that?

That doesn't mean that most Americans would consider it worth that much, if they did then either the item should be mass produced (rather than hand-made) or the price would need to be high enough so that ownership would still be somewhat exclusive.

With apologies to Lynda, mass-produced decorative items do have a place in every economy that supports unique/rare art production. The reverse isn't entirely true. This can be frustrating to artists, particularly when they live in a society with a very high level of general wealth, since unique/rare items tend to remain the province of a small proportion of collectors no matter how much wealth the general populace has at its disposal. But it is an inescapable truth. As a person lucky enough to have several talented artists in my family, I have access to high quality, unique art without having to pay for it. It hasn't changed the fact that I have no particular interest in "uniqueness" as a quality that makes art valuable to me.

As for PE's sculptor, he's apparently wealthy as the result of some unsavory practices of his family, namely the whole human sacrifice thing. That's what the sword that started this thread was all about, if you'll all remember.


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xardoz
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An excellent source for information on the history, care and feeding of swords, swordsmanship, bladesmithing is Sword Forum International. The atmosphere is very friendly, and the forumites range from raw enthusiasts to maritial artists, re-enactors, collectors, historians and several well-known bladesmiths.
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dreadlord
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have you ever seen those cartoons with the big guy sharpening His axe on a marble wheel? that's what I thought of when I saw the post.

I am an Eagle Scout, so I know a bit about knife-sharpening, but not that much on sword sharpening, so cant really help you there. However, I have heard that they have specialized tools to do it with.


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PatEsden
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Xardoz--great link with tons of cool information.
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xardoz
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Thanks Pat - there's accurate, in-depth info there on damn near everything to do with swords from all regions of the world.

Someone mentioned stainless steel earlier in this thread. If anyone is writing about swords in modern times, please be aware that despite what the stereotype rednecks on the cable shopping channels say, stainless is just about the worst steel for swords (or knives) with blades longer than 12-14 inches. Sure, it's tough and easy to care for, but a sword-length blade requires flexibility and stainless is just too brittle. There's a great video of one of the cable shopping guys demonstrating exactly that here:

http://www.deliciousironing.com/files/SAHsword.wmv (12.5MB)
He's also demonstrating that you get what you pay for.


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pantros
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When I forge swords, I use springs from train and car suspensions as my raw steel.

I get the shape with a hammer.

I refine the shape on a belt sander working my way up the grain count as I go. This will usually make them fairly sharp.

I polish them on an electric wheel. This will bring it to a razor edge - which is what many people want in a display sword. Though I have made swords with a very blunt edge on request as well. A functional sword would be sharp but not razor sharp.

Spring steel will not hold a razor edge for as long as a good tool steel. When I make daggers, I tend to start with old files.

Springs and files are generally cheap to buy by weight at the scrap metal yard.

In both swords and daggers, I do sometimes actually buy raw steel of varying hardnesses.

I would never use stainless for anything other than tableware. It's difficult to work with and not at all durable.


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xardoz
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Hi pantros. I made a seax from a old Nicholson (1095) file. It's stock removal, but I hardened and tempered it in a homemade propane forge.

http://www.deliciousironing.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=seax1


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Survivor
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I guess that it's predictable, with a name like "Sword sharpening", that this topic would develop into a discussion of how to sharpen swords

Stainless is superior for a blade that is expected to suffer a lot of abuse and neglect. That's its main function, as implied by the adjective "stainless". It's fine for short, heavy blades that will be used casually, such as for...well, best not said. It isn't generally good for real weapons...which is why CLP developed for firearms maintenance is a good thing for swords too. I find maintaining weapons tiresome if they aren't being actively used on a regular basis, so having a knife made of stainless steel appeals to me. And you can stick it in the dishwasher.


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