posted
I'm in the final throes of the first draft of my first (soon to be) complete novel, in whatever sense a completed draft can be considered complete (I just know I'll have finished something). If things go well I should have it done in two or three weeks (I'm sitting at 107-108K words of a guesstimated 120K).
I can't see any reason to seek readers/critique/feedback on this draft because it's begging for major overhaul just by virtue of how the story worked out after I started. Is there a reason to go for feedback that soon, when your finger's already on the do-over button?
It seems to make more sense that I wait until at least after the first big overhaul, maybe thye second, depending on what the first yields. Is that too long to wait?
I see a lot of beginnings put up for stories that aren't written yet, even novels, but I have an aversion to asking people to look at stuff from an incomplete work, or a "completed" one I'm not satisfied in having given my best effort yet.
Am I missing the boat here? Is there an ideal time to throw it out there?
[This message has been edited by dee_boncci (edited February 04, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by dee_boncci (edited February 04, 2007).]
posted
It's probably best to wait until it's presentable, that is, all smoothed out and nearly ready to go---unless there's some specific detail or aspect that only requires a slice of it to generate discussion.
(My works tend to load up with notes-to-myself, generally in boldface, since I got a computer to work on---comments like "consider doing the scene this way instead"..."check this word for use the era in question"..."move this to another part of the story"..."is this character tall or short or fat or thin?"..."is this technology acceptable?" You know, the usual stuff. All that would have to come out in revision---'cause it would look real stupid to leave it in.)
posted
You are at the perfect place, in my opinion, to solicit feedback from a writer's group. You have a solid story fleshed out, you clearly know where you are going. Now is the time to test the waters.
There are two types of writers I've critiqued: 1) the amateur writer who still needs some serious work on their manuscript, and 2) the "almost-ready" writer who is on the brink of being publishable and only needs a little polish. Out of all the writing I've reviewed, I can count on two fingers the manuscripts I thought fell into category #2. (I classify my own stuff into #1) A good critique group can help you identify the elements in your writing that keep you in the #1 category.
By inviting others to critique your work NOW, you can get the feedback to HELP you do your rewrite. You might learn you have some problems with your manuscript that you didn't see, being too emotionally involved with the story. Or you might learn there is an element that should be expanded.
Do you really want to invest the time doing a full rewrite, only to learn there was some major problem that unbiased eyes could see but you couldn't? Let me make an assumption here. Let's assume you fall into the #1 category, like 99% of the writers I've critiqued. I've run into writers who have core plot premises that were unbelievable (no intelligent person would behave in this manner), or were unfathomable (the writer holds the whole story in his/her head but the rest of us are clueless as to all the subtle references), or introduced an element/plot twist that is so offensive it would make me put the book down in disgust, or the plot progression was illogical.
Most of the serious issues I've encountered while doing critiques only needed a simple fix to work. That's the entire point of a critique group... to get that feedback to fix the gaping holes in your story, not to be the grammar and spelling police. (If you don't practice good grammar and spelling, you will NEVER get out of category #1.)
My suggestion, since you aren't a believer in the value of critique feedback, is to give it a TRY and see for yourself. Rewrite ONE chapter at a time, submit it for review, and from the feedback you will be able to gauge whether you are on the right track. When the critiques start coming back with "Well done!" you'll know you have moved into category #2.
posted
Elan gave you some great advice - finding the plot holes early is a really good idea.
I didn't show my novel to anyone until I'd revised it probably five or six times all the way through (probably more times than that - I gave up counting a long time ago). When it was as good as I could get it, I sent it to my beta readers and Brit-picker to find plot holes, etc. Once I got their input, I revised it according to what they said. Then I saw other things to fix (things I wanted to elaborate on or clarify or alter in some way), so in all, I probably revised it three or four times after the beta readers saw it. All the way through, all 115-120,000 words of it. Then I found a crit group online (www.notebored.com) where I'm now having it critted, 2000 words per week, which is WAY TOO SLOW but at least it's being done (we're up to chapter 10 now on Notebored). Then I took a chapter to a writing workshop. What I learned there made me go through it at least twice more. Then one of my fanfic readers sent me a really detailed crit of one of my fanfics and after some discussion with him, I learned he's a writer (journalist) and teaches writing as well, so now he's just finished going through it and I've revised according to his input. I'm trying to think if there are any more crits hanging in mid-air now beyond the Notebored ones - maybe not.
Anyway, my novel was completed in first draft form from Dec. 2005 to March 2006. It's been in constant revisions since then except for November when I wrote the second novel in the series (in first draft form - over 95,000 words at present) as part of the Nanowrimo project. Now it's February, nearly a year since I completed the first draft of "Star Sons." My first ten chapters are as good as I can get them and have passed muster with a LOT of critique folks now, so I'm off to send out queries fairly soon, while still polishing the rest of the novel over and over and over until it's as good as I can get it. I really want to get back to the second novel, but until the queries go out and the Notebored critiques catch up with the rest of the novel, "Star Sons" will be in a state of flux. And yes, I have put chunks of it away for a month at a time a couple of times, so I could see it with fresh eyes when I worked on it the next time (which is a great idea). The novel is so long and complex, I can be polishing one section for a while, and the next one will seem fresh and new to me when I get there, which is fine.
I hope I haven't discouraged you - this is how *I* work. Some people say they do a first draft, then a second and a third, and then they're finished. This isn't my first novel - I've written six in all, but this is the first that's a serious contender for publication (some of the others were fanfiction, one was a kids' book that was "too rural," others just didn't have as strong a through-line as this one does). I don't see how anyone can write a novel and then only go through it twice more before considering it ready for publication, but some published authors say that's their practice. Perhaps they plan every scene out in detail before they start writing, I don't know. I'm a "seat of the pants" writer, so such planning doesn't work for me (and I've tried it, but it frustrated me more than it was worth, so I gave up on it).
I may have gone through mine twenty or more times by now, I honestly don't know, but it's waaaaaay up there, and I still find words I can improve on, an image I can write with more passion, whatever.
I'm a professional sculptor. I know you can keep picking at an artwork until you ruin it. So far, I'm not there yet with the novels, but I think this latest run though is probably the last one it will need before querying agents about it. I hope so, anyway!
To answer your question - you could get a couple of people to read it now to look for plot holes. Fix what they point out, then go through it again and again until you can't find anything to improve on, until it's absolutely as good as you can get it on your own. Then show it more critique folks (the same ones, if they're willing). The main thing is to find people whose opinion you truly respect, and who will be HONEST with you about it, not just say, "Oh, it's WONDERFUL!" when it may not be. Don't take their opinions as Gospel - it's your story, after all, and you'll be surprised how often people who actually have a clue will give you contradicting opinions on things (I have such a thing going on over at Notebored right now - two critters have opposite opinions about how this one part of a scene should go. Ack! I need a third opinion!! LOL!) Even with the third opinion, though, the final decision is MINE. But it's really helpful to see your work through other people's eyes.
Hope some of my ramblings here are helpful to you. Good luck with your novel!
Lynda
[This message has been edited by Lynda (edited February 04, 2007).]
posted
Thanks for the thoughts everyone, lots to think about there, and all will be carefully considered as the time approaches.
Elan, you wrote, "since you aren't a believer in the value of critique feedback". Just curious, what makes you think that?
For the record, I'm a big proponent of getting and using critiques, otherwise I never would have bothered to ask about it or participate in the feedback forums. I'll admit I'm a little averse to asking people to take a bunch of their time to go through a lengthy work when I know a priori that some major restructuring of the first half of the work is required. But you and Lynda point out some good reasons to consider doing so anyway.
quote:I can't see any reason to seek readers/critique/feedback on this draft because it's begging for major overhaul just by virtue of how the story worked out after I started.
I think that you probably meant "close grammar/usage/spelling edit", but that's not what you said. Elan was probably responding to this suggestion that critical feedback isn't helpful for identifying exactly what a "major overhaul" should address.
As you progress in your writing, you'll find that you become your own best critic, the person that immediately balks at implausible, boring, or irrelevant elements of the text. But even then, it's still wise to have a few other viewpoints on whether a story is working in the earliest drafts.
What happened was that about two-thirds of the way through the draft, I decided there where some some significant aspects of the early plot sequence that I wanted to change (in specific ways). I opted not to go back and redo them immediately for the sake of getting to the end of the story. So the draft as it stands has a large number of early scenes that are just plain wrong.
Maybe the optimal thing to do is to create a synopsis/outline and ask for feedback/critique of it from a plot/structure perspective, rather than asking people to read 120,000 words with a bunch of known discontinuities in the basic flow of events, or waiting until after I invest all the time of revising it and perhaps writing in a whopper of a mistake (I've done that before).
posted
Ack. If you KNOW you have mistakes/problems in your story, just fix it and keep working on it until it's as good as you can get it, then ask for feedback from somebody else. No point giving them something you already know is flawed.
Asking for feedback on a synopsis might be a good idea, too, although a story can change a lot from synopsis to finished novel.
posted
I think that a scene that you already know you're going to cut entirely doesn't need critique, but if you're going to merely rewrite it then critiques could be a big help. It just requires more communication about what elements you already are going to change.
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