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An antagonist is someone whose goals come into conflict with those of the protagonist. And those goals don't necessarily have to be "bad" goals. They just have to come into conflict.

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Can anyone here think of examples of stories (book or movie) where you have a protagonist and antagonist go against each other, when neither are necessarily wrong?

Or, to flip it, has anyone read a book or seen a movie where both characters aren't really "good" guys, but one is clearly a protagonist and the other the antagonist?

http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Workshops/conflict-workshop.html

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Can anyone here think of examples of stories (book or movie) where you have a protagonist and antagonist go against each other, when neither are necessarily wrong?

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Ender's Game.
Speaker For The Dead
Seventh Son by OSC

All of theThe Saga Of Seven Suns books
Captain Nemoby Kevin J. Anderson

Legend
The King Beyond the Gate
Waylander
Ravenheart by David Gemmell

The First and Second Demon Wars trilogies by R.A. Salvatore

The Matarese Circle
The Bourne Identity by Robert Ludlum

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Or, to flip it, has anyone read a book or seen a movie where both characters aren't really "good" guys, but one is clearly a protagonist and the other the antagonist?

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Face Off.
Sin City.
Underworld.
Interview With A Vampire.

Just to name a few...

Movies with badguys for potag and antag;
Payback
Goodfellas
The Sopranos (TV series)
Young guns
The Hiest
The italion job

You can have lots of 'conflict' (I think this word is poorly chosen, as it often stands more for complication than outright conflict) without having to do the good vs. evil thing, and family dramas that do not involve twisted abuse are good places to look for examples.

A lot of love stories have conflict without good/evil, too. "Made in Heaven", one of my favorite light-side quirky romances would be a favorite example of that, since it avoids some of the more hackneyed 'conflicts' of romances and instead sets up a people vs. time scenario. People working against time or weather factors can give lots of 'conflict' without needing to bring evil into the picture, too.

Interesting thread.

Regards,

SharonID

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And what was that movie about the retarded girl (who also has a 'normal' sister) who falls in love and her family doesn't think she's up to it (very roughly stated)?

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While the Operative seems like the 'bad guy' throughout the movie (and he is in a way, a bit scary), the issues that grabbed me what how both believed in what he was doing. The Operative is a believer, this is actually what makes him scary. He believes what he is doing (working for the Alliance) is right. By proxy, it's actually the Alliance that is the antagonist. It is a mostly benevelant organisation bent on brining the outer planets into the 'fold' of the central planets' utopian society. Not necessarily a bad thing, they have better medicines, better education, better technology, better everything, but it's the way they attempt to squash the resolve of the outer planets that is disturbing. By not respecting the pre-existance of a culture in the outer planets, they become something a bit more nasty under the utopian ideal. Back to the thread, The Operative is a good guy, his values are those of integrity, honesty, loyalty and the belief in a better world. It's his actions that define him as scary since he is willing to uphold these usually lauded values at any cost. Contrasting this is Mal, who is supposed to be our protagonist, but he's also a thief, a killer and while not morally bankrupt, his values are a bit askew. He's the good guy. He stands up and does what no one else will do and he also does it at any cost. It's what we're rooting for him to do and because he does, other people die.

So what makes a character a 'good guy'? Is it because he adheres to the values of a society, or his internal values, despite what his society values? Bit of a circular discussion, but I have another example.

Stay with me on this one. In Pirates of the Carribean (dead man's chest), there are two good guys. There's the Hero fella (who's name escapes me at the moment) who tries to rescue people, the girl, etc. Then there's Jack Sparrow, who by all definitions is not really a good guy. He's morally bankrupt, he's a pirate afterall, and he looks out for number one first and anyone else that is useful to him, second. But we all root for Jack. Why? Granted he does stand up and show his mettle near the end with the Leviathian (sp?), but what is his motivation for this? He does it because no one else can? The Hero-guy will do the same, given a chance. He'll also probably fail, given the chance.

So what makes Jack so memorable as a character and his actions so noble? I think, and feel free to argue this, that he is a hero in his own right not because he chooses to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I think he chooses it because he knows he has a choice. The other Hero-guy is emotionally (or morally) stunted in a way. He chooses good. Always. Because he's the good guy. Jack chooses good because he is all too aware of what the alternative is. He's been the bad guy. He's been selfish, self-serving and by some people's definitions, evil. He chooses a good action because he knows that he is in a position to choose. And so he does the sacrificial act and we all mourn his nobility.

I like characters that are more complex like this. Characters that ask questions. I'm often bored with the 'he's good because he's good' explanation.

Wow I didn't think I'd have much to contribute right away, but character development is what I love to chew over. In my writing I strive to make my characters clearly on one side or another and then I like to remove that assumption as I go along. I'm interested in motivation, and I think that is what defines one good guy from another; is this character choosing to be good because he knows he has a choice, or is he choosing by default?

The ones who are aware of the choice are to me, the far more compelling and heroic characters than the ones who just play at being a Hero because that's what they've been told (or tell themselve) they are.