Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » Length Problem

   
Author Topic: Length Problem
darklight
Member
Member # 5213

 - posted      Profile for darklight   Email darklight         Edit/Delete Post 
If there's one thing I've learned from looking around the topics posted here, it's that a first novel should be around the 80-100 thousand word length.

Now, I have a number of completed novels (many of which are in need of a good edit/re-write) but they are all VERY long. My kids novels aside (100,000 words) my shortest novel is around 250,000, the longest being 385,000 approx. So what do I do to shorten them down without losing much from the story itself, and what do I do about the 385,000 words novel that I believe could only lose a few thousand words at a push.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that 80 - 100 thousand is quite short for a novel?


Posts: 626 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JamieFord
Member
Member # 3112

 - posted      Profile for JamieFord   Email JamieFord         Edit/Delete Post 
Be ruthless with your storytelling. Tighten it until the reader is compelled to turn each page--to where they can't put it down when they get to the end of a chapter.

Wow, if you have 380,000 words in a novel, odds are, you could bust it into two books. You probably have a ton of description, narration and backstory that could be shortened/hacked or put into dialog somewhere.


Posts: 603 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zero
Member
Member # 3619

 - posted      Profile for Zero           Edit/Delete Post 
yeah---that's crazy long, I say tighten the bolts and split the story. That's why the LOTR is three books. It's still only one story.
Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
graeme canty
Member
Member # 5235

 - posted      Profile for graeme canty   Email graeme canty         Edit/Delete Post 
Would be a good idea to split it into two or three. I am writting a novel and that'll come to about 280'000 words, and as its my first attempt, I am dividing into a trilogy with approx 85'000 words each (I know the maths dont add up there but its roughly)
Posts: 17 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kings_falcon
Member
Member # 3261

 - posted      Profile for kings_falcon   Email kings_falcon         Edit/Delete Post 
First, congradulations on the writing accomplishment.


Nope, 80K - 100K isn't too short. In fantasy/sci fi that can bleed to about 120K but . . . Check out Ms. Snark's blog - she just answered a question about a 180K ms that an agent wanted cut to 100K. She said get the chain saw out.

Get - Self Editing for Fiction and really look at your stories again.

Fall out of love with the words.

On a 385K story:

(a) There should be a ton you can trim;
(b) trimming may, in part, be breaking it up into 2 or 3 books. Notice, that I still left room for trimming.

Look at your word choices. Have you used three words to say what one could?

Most -ly words and adjectives can really be cut.

You can tell some events that you show now.

Get the resource books that exist on editing and take them to heart.


Posts: 1210 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
spcpthook
Member
Member # 3246

 - posted      Profile for spcpthook   Email spcpthook         Edit/Delete Post 
My first novel was 185,000 words which I decided was too long so I added 50,000 words to make the first half stand on its own and split it in two. I've also found the story shrinks with each new trick I learn to tighten up my writing, first and foremost I have begun going through it and killing my darlings...those items I felt were so witty and wonderful and necessary that I can now see just bogged things down.
Posts: 71 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pantros
Member
Member # 3237

 - posted      Profile for pantros   Email pantros         Edit/Delete Post 
350k words is too long.

In order to cut it down you need to be able to seperate your story into distinct story arcs.

Trilogy starts at plot point A
the goal of the trilogy is to get to point D
The goal of the first book should be to Get to point B
The goal of the second book would then be to get to point C
And the goal of the third book is to get to point D

By goal, I mean what your characters are trying to do, not what you are trying to do. Your characters can always want to get to Point D and it can be a goal in every book, but they should be focused primarily on the end of each book moreso than the end of the trilogy.

If you cannot get a book divided up nicely into 120k bits, shelve it for now. Work on another book and then after you get a normal length book published and prove your marketability, work on getting the monster book published as is. (With a repolish of what you learn while writing the normal length book.)


Posts: 370 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Skribent
Member
Member # 5143

 - posted      Profile for Skribent   Email Skribent         Edit/Delete Post 
I have the opposite problem. I eat up plot and barely manage to put out 75K.

I agree with the others. Find some books on editing and go through the story, throwing out anything that absolutely doesn't have to be there. Or split it up into two or three books.


Posts: 52 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zero
Member
Member # 3619

 - posted      Profile for Zero           Edit/Delete Post 
I think that is a better problem to have Skribent, as a general rule most people can chew up a fast-paced story lacking in detail. However, not everyone can swallow a Hugo.

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited April 02, 2007).]


Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Spaceman
New Member
Member # 9240

 - posted      Profile for Spaceman           Edit/Delete Post 
Skribent,

I had the same problem. My first novel ran 74,000 words. I let it sit for two years. Now, I'm redrafting the novel and hit 65,000 words, but I'm only half way through the story.

Wht happened? I learned how to write better than I did. I get into the characters head more, and I give better description. Both take real estate.

I once had the problem that I couldn't write a short story longer than 5,000 words. Now, I routinely break 6000. It comes with experience.


Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lehollis
Member
Member # 2883

 - posted      Profile for lehollis   Email lehollis         Edit/Delete Post 
I think one of Mark Twain's rules applies succinctly. "Eschew Surplusage."

Personally, I would say that is the first thing to do. Be brutal and ruthless. Many writers seem surprised at how much they can cut from a novel or story. If that fails, I would say, then you can look into making it a series.

The first time this happened to me, I had a short story at 8,800 words that I really wanted under 6,000. I thought surely nothing could be cut from it. It was already tight, and everything was there for a reason. When I really got down to being ruthless, it was 5,700 words.

Now, I just tell myself if it's longer than six words, it's too long. (Do an internet search for "six word novels" if you've never bumped into any.) I say it in jest, but also as a reminder that it can always be shorter.


Posts: 696 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kings_falcon
Member
Member # 3261

 - posted      Profile for kings_falcon   Email kings_falcon         Edit/Delete Post 
Another thing I forgot to mention. Our dear Oliverhouse has a very excellent cutting blog.

You could send him a scene and let him cut. That way you can see how it's done with your story. He likes blurbs of about 1000 words.

The blog can be found here:

http://www.freivald.org/~jake/cutting_blog


Jake is a great resource.


Posts: 1210 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
darklight
Member
Member # 5213

 - posted      Profile for darklight   Email darklight         Edit/Delete Post 
Thakns guys for all the advice. Some of it will probably come in useful for most of the novels. My problem seems to be that I write such epic stories. I have a series of six that could run as one whole novel. I try to write (or edit at least) with the notion of 'why use three words when you can use only one.'

The problem with the 380 K story is:

A. The action takes place over a twenty four hour period.
B. There are only two locations where the action takes place so little room for editing out those uneeded scenes where, for example, the MC meets his freind down the local bar and have a conversation that doesn't add to the story.
C. The story is set in futuristic TV game show in which the contestants have to complete twelve two hour long games - which they do.

I can see where I could delete some backstory though I don't have an alwful lot because of the fast pace of the story.

I'll have to do as pantros says and hope I get something else published first.

[This message has been edited by darklight (edited April 04, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by darklight (edited April 04, 2007).]


Posts: 626 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KayTi
Member
Member # 5137

 - posted      Profile for KayTi           Edit/Delete Post 
Another idea is to ask for chapter reviews from people here. I'm sure a few people could give you a review on a chapter or two. If you ask them to focus on cutting, they can show you what they see in their view as extra. You don't have to actually use the cuts, but it might be informative.

I helped a fellow hatracker recently with doing a prologue synopsis. She was having trouble figuring out how to boil it down, so I read it and gave my version of a synopsis, just as a way to help her think it through. It was a valuable exercise for me, because I also tend to be overly wordy and I was curiuos if I would be able to come up with a concise summary. So it was good for me in my writing, and helped the writer, that's what Hatrack is all about!

Good luck to you.


Posts: 1911 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
darklight
Member
Member # 5213

 - posted      Profile for darklight   Email darklight         Edit/Delete Post 
KayTi, thanks. That would be great if anyone is willing to take a look at some sample peices?

The novel I'm most interested in getting sorted is just shy of 231k. Maybe I could split it up into two part - I'm not sure though if there's a good place to split it, to make it seem like two whole novels.


Posts: 626 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oliverhouse
Member
Member # 3432

 - posted      Profile for oliverhouse   Email oliverhouse         Edit/Delete Post 
I missed this post previously because life got in the way -- new baby, new position at work, little things like that -- but I'm interested in the topic, certainly.

Darklight, I've got to believe that 380K words is too long for a novel that spans 24 hours. Figure about 500 words per printed page; if you read one page / minute (a pretty good clip), that means that you'll spend 380,000 / 500 words per page / 60 pages per hour = 12.7 hours -- only half as much time reading about the events as the events supposedly took! From a position of almost complete ignorance (and therefore very high fallibility, so forgive me), it seems like you're providing more information than needed about each scene or introducing redundancies, showing and telling (vs. showing or telling), or something.

Kings_falcon is right (and thanks for the kind words, KF), I have a blog focused on cutting, and I find that we can often cut prose by 30-45% without too much trouble and with very little semantic or stylistic change. I'd be willing to take a look at a chapter or two, and it doesn't have to be public. That might get you to a quarter million words.

However, besides cutting the excerpts I might do on the blog, I'd look at possible redundancies in your overall story. Does each scene need to be spelled out, or can some of them naturally be assumed by the implication of a previous scene? Or can you explain one of them away with a few lines? Is there any redundancy among scenes?

I just found a great example in another sphere, a source of inspiration. Michael Kennedy's notes to Benjamin Britten's operatic version of A Midsummer Night's Dream says

quote:
[Britten and librettist Pears] reduced Shakespeare's five acts to three and his 2000-odd lines by half, yet they needed to insert only six words of their own. When, in Act One, Lysander tells Hermia that he will marry her in his widowed aunt's house seven leagues from Athens, he explaines that there "the sharp Athenian law/(Compelling thee to marry with Demetrius)/Cannot pursue us." The words in parentheses were the librettists' inspired means of dispensing with Shakespeare's Act One, much of which is concerned wtih the insistence of Hermia's father that she should marry the man he will choose for her.

It's a Philips recording, Sir Colin Davis conducting, catalogue number 454 122-2.

If you want to send me something, please do, maybe a few chapters or a few thousand words, but seriously consider looking at the entire book's structure for redundancies.

Regards,
Oliver


Posts: 671 | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mig
Member
Member # 3318

 - posted      Profile for Mig           Edit/Delete Post 
Oliverhouse,

Great blog and excellent points.


Posts: 73 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kazuo
Member
Member # 5374

 - posted      Profile for Kazuo   Email Kazuo         Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, congradulations on writing your tomb! I don't have any advice that other smart people in here haven't already given you. But good luck parting with your precious words, I know how they can all be important to a reader ("no, its all necessary! They just don't understand what I'm trying to do! Thats the best part!")
Posts: 15 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
darklight
Member
Member # 5213

 - posted      Profile for darklight   Email darklight         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for all the advice.

oliverhouse, thanks for offering to look at a smaple piece of writing - I will send something along when I get the chance. I'm beginnig to understand where I can cut from the novel, if only those unneeded word per sentance and bits that actually dont carry the story forward. There are still some parts I don't know what to do with.

Lets say, in the aforementioned story I detail some of the game rules. For example: they are given to the contestants; or one of the contsetants recites them to his fellow game player or thinks them to himself to enable him to recalls what he can and can not do. Is this necessary to the story or can I delete it?

Example two: In the story contestant one constantly talks to contestant two about past games, what happened in them etc, to help them play the game and to give him the idea that he knows everything about it; a game nerd if you like. In the end, it turns out he hates the game, has never watched it (it becomes clear why). Are these sections then necessary, or can I delete them without losing plot?


Posts: 626 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kings_falcon
Member
Member # 3261

 - posted      Profile for kings_falcon   Email kings_falcon         Edit/Delete Post 
darklight it's hard to answer those questions in the abstract. It depends on how critical each incident is to your plot.


However, I suspect you can winnow those down considerably to only the essential elements. Can you get away with "telling" some of them rather than showing? Probably.

The situations you've described present perfect opportunities to move from "what the reader needs to know RIGHT NOW" to "infodump."

You probably need some of example 2 to set that character but a snide comment or two - "well, XYZ lost because ABC" may probably work better than a 10 page description of a past event to set him up as a know it all.

Just something to keep in mind - if I spent 100 pages wading through his opinion and then found out he was a fraud, I might be really annoyed. But that's going to be a POV issue. If I'm in Mr. know it all's head but don't learn this fact until the end, I will be annoyed.


Posts: 1210 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KayTi
Member
Member # 5137

 - posted      Profile for KayTi           Edit/Delete Post 
Another idea - why not try first to just OUTLINE the story? You may have worked from one to create the draft you have now, but now scrap that - start fresh, and outline what IS there. 385k words...hmm, at least every 10k words you need a line on an outline. That's still going to be a mammoth outline. Maybe start big, then break into sections?

I have a feeling that when you start looking at your work in pieces, you'll start to get a better understanding of where there is extra, where there is redundancy, where there might be long stretches that don't serve to move the plot forward.

I've been talking about this for a while, but I've just finished reading the book Self Editing for Fiction Writers, and I highly recommend it. I used the book + a few hatrack critiques to really whittle down a short story I had in progress. It helped tremendously, and now I feel like I will do better with my future efforts from the starting gate, rather than having so much work to do in editing.

Oh, on game rules and things - it's hard to know what's necessary. My kids and I are listening to Harry Potter 1 on CD right now and have just listened to the section explaining Quiddich rules. I have to say it was helpful the way the author did it. She had one kid explaining it to HP, and HP doing some repeating of the rules. Since it was a brand new game for the readers, we needed some level of introduction to it that would stick, all the ideas were pretty foreign. However, she doesn't spend pages and pages doing this. Later on, during the first quiddich match (quite a few pages later) there are more comments interspersed (e.g., some comic relief by character named Dean who makes mention of soccer rules, which confuses those from wizard families.) These additional comments help solidify the point of the game for readers. Quiddich matches serve a role in each of the HP books, so it behooved the author to explain it well at first (via a conversation AND at the same time a practice session with HP and the team captain)

Anyway, just wanted to offer an illustration since it was fresh in my mind.

Good luck!


Posts: 1911 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Balthasar
Member
Member # 5399

 - posted      Profile for Balthasar   Email Balthasar         Edit/Delete Post 
As already noted, there's a problem of this becoming all too abstract. How can anyone give you advice on cutting a novel he or she hasn't read?

It seems to me that you're putting the cart ahead of the horse: you're saying, Hey, I have this 380,000-word novel on my shelf and I want to put it on the market, so that means I need to cut it to 100,000 words.

Since I haven't read the novel, I can't tell you if this is a good idea or not. It might be a bit beefy as it stands, but that doesn't mean it should become emaciated with a drastic cut. Cutting 280,000 words, 1120 pages, the equivalent of two novels, is no easy task.

A couple of things I'd think about.

1) It is possible to do something with the novel the way OSC does with the Ender series? In other words, can you highlight one of the story lines, write a 400-page novel based on that, then use the other story lines for future novels set in the same universe?

2) Or, should you keep the novel as it is? Do you like it as it stands? Do you really want to cut it? If not, then you have two choices. First, you can revise it, polish it, and market it; forget the idea that most first novels are short, because the fact is that not every first novel is short, and yours might fall in that category. Second, you can put it on the shelf and write a 100,000-word novel to market as your first.

Obviously, the choice is yours.


Posts: 130 | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2