posted
OK this isn't exactly about plagiarism, but it's similar. I have drafted the first 15 pages of a story and all of three readers have told me that it reeks of "Bourne Identity," which, incidnetally, I have never read, and I have never seen the movie(s). So... while I find it profoundly unfair that people see my work as unoriginal, how much do I need to cater to this outlook and how far can I just say "meh, I write what I want," and shrug it off? I would like to consider selling it someday, do I need to revamp the beginning and make drastic changes to appear more "original?" or would you, as a reader, read on?
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Unless you can't stand it that people are seeing similarities, write on. Do not read the book or see the movie - at least not until you have written your story. Chances are petty good that you will be able to find similarities between each of your works and someone else's, but they won't be exact copies. The differences in characterization, location, style, etc. should be more than enough to make your work unique.
BTW - When you finally are able to see/read Bourne, I bet you'll be able to see that it isn't exactly original itself.
Aren't we all told that from time to time? And usually the "source" is something we've never read. In one story, I had a character wrap barbwire around his thigh. One person read it, and said that reminded them of a character in the blockbuster story by Dan Brown--which I've never read.
posted
Guy with amnesia turns out to have been a highly trained agent - and not necessarily a nice guy?
I could name a dozen movies and twice as many books with that plotline...I even use it myself to a degree.
Really, original ideas are not the goal. A story is more than just the plot concept, a character, a setting... Its how you put everything together that matters and makes it yours.
posted
If three critiques are saying the same thing, it might be time to pay attention. That still doesn't mean they're correct, but it might be worth looking into.
If it is the amnesia angle, it's far from original in the Bourne series. The Long Kiss Goodnight is a popular example, as is the anime series Noir, as I have heard it. Personally, I really enjoy the concept of amnesia, but I'm waiting for a good angle to present itself before I use it. My favorite, that I've come close to writing, is a werewolf with amnesia. I'm betting it's been done. It seems obvious.
At any rate, if it is the amnesia angle, most likely they're pointing to that because it's the most recent popular example of the idea. I wouldn't worry about it if it is just that angle.
posted
pretty much every werewolf movie uses the amnesia angle. The woof never remembers what he did as a werewolf and often its a surprise to him to discover that he is the werewolf or in the most recent version, were-rabbit.
If you are reminding people of something you have't read or seen, odds are you'll remind an agent or publisher about the same thing. The question you need to answer is how are you different from that?
You probably need to read it to see where the similarities are and tweak yours away from the "well known" version.
quote: I have drafted the first 15 pages of a story and all of three readers have told me that it reeks of "Bourne Identity," which, incidnetally, I have never read
Read them. The movies are complete hack jobs. There are layers to The Bourne Identity, The Bourne Supremacy, and The Bourne Ultimatum that the movies couldn't possibly get right. They are excellent reads, if you can get over Robert Ludlum's excessive use of the word "rapidly". It might not be amnesia that your readers are referring to. It might be false identities, assassins trying to draw out other assassins (which is the real plot), convoluted clandestine agency involvement, or any combination of the above.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 13, 2007).]
quote: I had a character wrap barbwire around his thigh. One person read it, and said that reminded them of a character in the blockbuster story by Dan Brown--which I've never read.
ChrisOwens, Dan Brown got that contraption -- which was not barbed wire -- from a real religious organization: The Opus Dei. Some of the men strap those devices around their legs to promote abstinance and remain flacid.
posted
I had a bad experience the other day. I was watching this Japanimation movie, and found one of the "SFy" plot devices in the opening scene is exactly what I used in the opening of my latest novel. Moreover, certain elements further on in their story are similar to something I had planned to write a chapter or so ahead.
Probably coincidental. The "gizmo" in question has been bandied about ad nauseam in this and that for twenty years. I don't know that anybody would notice if I went through with it as is...it does discourage and depress me somewhat to have the "nothing new under the sun" theorem rubbed in my face. (Otherwise, my story is nothing like theirs. I hadn't seen it or even heard of it until a couple of months ago.)
[edited to correct failed Italicism...my "/" key must be sticking]
[This message has been edited by Robert Nowall (edited April 14, 2007).]
posted
While there may be nothing new as far as ideas and plot lines, there are new and interesting ways to present them. We're still a long way from Shakespear's monkies being able to repeat every word in existence. With that in mind, what you might need to consider is not the idea itself, but how it is being presented to the reader. I would suggest just writing your story, or novel, the way you see it, then thinking if one of the following scenes might work better to start the story.
Another thing that I find true in situations like these, is that a lot of readers want desperately to associate the stories they read with something else they've seen or read. In some of these people, it might be a consious decision, but in most I suspect it is an unconsious side effect of our media intensive society.
Anyway, sometimes these people will select something that has a few of the same plot points and say they read something like this before, or had seen something similar in a movie. The only problem is, that it may not have been all that similar at all. I've found several cases where the movie or story they were referring to wasn't even all that close, it just had some similar plot points.
You have things in mind when you work out your story. Watch the movies and/or read the books. If they seem to say everything you wanted to say - move on. If it doesn't, find a better way to tell the story that says what you want to say.
I disagree with InarticulateBabbler (though I covet his name). I enjoyed both of the Bourne movies, though the second was half the movie of the first. I demand a lot less from a movie than a book, though. I haven't read the books, but I have heard they are very different from the movies.
Someone forced me to read _DaVinci_Code_, and I thought it was an extremely poor piece of literature. (Even if you ignore all of the excessively bad "research.")
posted
I guess, more specifically, the problem is not that my world and setting are unoriginal, they are highly original, however, you don't really get a taste or the flavor of it until you are some 50 pages in. The first 15, certainly, a regular industrial type setting with a character with memory loss, other than being an expert in weapons. As it happens this is very important for a twist in the story later, but, how it looks to the reader (who does not know what I have in mind) he reads the first several pages and says "meh, I've seen this before," and drops the book.
On the one hand I wnat to be true to the story I am trying to tell. For me. For my integrity, lol.
On the other hand, I want people to read my book and be pulled in and not be distracted by making comparisons with friggin bourne identity.
So should I make changes? And to what extent?
I'm looking for opinions and ideas since the actual answer, I suppose, only I could have.
posted
First Question...Have you completed the first draft - all the way to then end.
If the answer is no, then you don't need to worry so much about the first 15 pages yet.
Once you know better where the story is going, you will want to rewrite the begining anyway to better steer the story and immerse the reader into where the story is going. You'll know your character better and the rewrite will show that and with just that added familiarity the first pages will be more immersive.
If you have written the whole book and are looking to revise it away from what people think they've already read, read what they've read.
quote:pretty much every werewolf movie uses the amnesia angle. The woof never remembers what he did as a werewolf and often its a surprise to him to discover that he is the werewolf or in the most recent version, were-rabbit.
I was actually referring to total amnesia, complete loss of all background memories -- and not blanking out when changed.
I've also done the were-bunny angle -- trigger by fear or panic. The results were more humorous than I had a taste for at the time.
Getting back to the question, though, to me it's not so much about being 100% original but about doing whatever you're doing in a fresh and imaginative way. I think interesting and original characters are a good start, as well as a strong plot and story development. I think that enough research would reveal most every idea has been done in some form.
posted
Finish the story. The Bourne Identity fans will know the difference.
quote: Another thing that I find true in situations like these, is that a lot of readers want desperately to associate the stories they read with something else...
luapc hit the nail directly on the head. How many times have you heard something like: You've gotta read this, it's like Star Wars crossed with Law and Order... ...or something? And, I've found, people LIKE the familiar. As long as it's a different story, rock on!
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 13, 2007).]
quote:...pretty much every werewolf movie uses the amnesia angle.
Have you seen HBO's Full Eclipse? Now there was a werewolf without amnesia. He knew what he was doing. Of course, you don't find out the secret until the end, but it was a cool little diversion from the norm.
Non-Hollywood stories, most would be incorrect. Sadly, the movies are that way. I'm a major fan of the werewolf, and have done extensive research -- just for the love of it -- and, though common, the amnesia element is not as much of a cliche outside of Hollywood.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 13, 2007).]
posted
I guess because this is an OSC message board, I will quote OSC himself. "I steal from the best--please, steal from me!"
There is nothing wrong with finding inspiration from other authors or even having work that smacks of other stories. I just saw an opera that I thought of as a Spanish Romeo and Juliette; that doesn't mean I liked the opera any less because it reminded me of something else.
And even if your work starts out sounding like Bourn Identity, you will make so many revisions and changes that you might end up with something completely different than what you started with.
posted
Quote: I've also done the were-bunny angle -- trigger by fear or panic. The results were more humorous than I had a taste for at the time.
Speaking of "no new ideas", this reminds me of a book I read when I was a kid, "Bunnicula". I don't really remember the whole story except there was a rabbit, some kids, and some garden veggie victims.
quote:Another thing that I find true in situations like these, is that a lot of readers want desperately to associate the stories they read with something else they've seen or read. In some of these people, it might be a consious decision, but in most I suspect it is an unconsious side effect of our media intensive society.
Is that ever true!
A long time ago, before I had sold any of my stories, I was in a writers group made up of romance writers (it was the only one I could find at the time). I was very excited about the STAR WARS movie (now you know how long ago--and far away--this was), and I talked about it quite a bit.
When it came time for them to give me feedback on my story, all they could say was that it made them think of STAR WARS.
Now I will grant that it was derivative, but that was on purpose. My story was set in the Darkover universe and I was hoping to sell it to a Darkover anthology that Marion Zimmer Bradley was doing.
But STAR WARS?
No way!
So, when you get feedback like that, be sure to consider the source.
posted
I agree with the finish the story as you see fit, read any books which seem to provoke excessive comparisons, then rewrite.
I'd just like to add that what REALLY GETS me is that 19th Century authors could finish a long novel in two years IN SEQUENCE, having it serially published as they went! Never mind how could they even think of and write all that so fast by hand, but how could they stand having the beginning printed before the whole thing was done? What if they wanted to change the beginning or completely rewrite parts? Never mind, God forbid, if they just got stuck at some point and couldn't just crank it out? (Even if you have Point A and Point C perfectly well, but Point B is unclear?) It unnerves me thinking about it.
posted
Well, publishing a chapter at a time gave the 19th century writer a chance to see how things look in print, use a tight deadline to focus one's thoughts, get feedback as they go along, and straigten out or drop things that don't engage him or the readers. I remember reading some Dickens (who did this), "Nicholas Nickelby," I think, and noticed whole long-term elements abruptly dropped out of the narrative for no apparent reason I could see---until I remembered that he wrote and published it one piece at a time.
I envy that.
(I continue with "19th Century writer" in this. It's been done as a stunt a few times in recent years, usually involving Stephen King.)
quote: ...what REALLY GETS me is that 19th Century authors could finish a long novel in two years IN SEQUENCE, having it serially published as they went!
What if they wanted to change the beginning or completely rewrite parts?
quote: It's been done as a stunt a few times in recent years, usually involving Stephen King.
That made me think that it was done by John Saul -- at the same time as Stephen King -- with the Blackstone Chronicles. He said, later in an interview, that it was the most difficult thing he had written. By the time he was halfway through, he was regretting not being able to go back and plant plot elements. He said that he would never do that again.
He was a soap opera actor when he started. I think that was beneficial: he was used to putting scenes together out of order.
posted
The consensus seems to be for me to continue as I had planned and see how things turn out in the end. I like that. It requires no more special effort on my part. Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Something sort of similar happened to me. While I was writing my fantasy novel, I would bounce ideas off my writer-buddy. I was using a lot of Biblical allegory, and coming dangerously close to some themes Robert Jordan had touched on, and naming certain character groups the same thing. At the time I’d never read any of the Wheel of Time, but luckily my buddy had. This happened a few times and I finally broke down and read the first book to avoid such problems in the future.
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