I am wondering if anyone has used a professional editor? Is it worthwhile? How do you pick a good one?
I received a reply from a lit agent that liked my story (I think he liked it: he said the story was very creative and gave the novel a B-. He also mentioned not using "pop" for a gunshot sound, ha ha but said the craft needed work and recommended a professional editor. He is probably correct about my craft. At the very least I am low on the experience chart.
So, any recommendations on particular editors? Types of edits? (critique, copy edit, line edit, etc.?) How to find a good one? Price range to expect? Do you get what you pay for?
posted
Did this Agent recommend by name a professional editor?
If so, I'd say you'd better check the Agent out. That particular scheme is pretty well known and fairly easy.
That being said a good editor who you feel you can trust can do a lot of good to a novel if they know what the genre is looking for and/or is willing to do a lot of "developmental" work which is also the most expensive kind of editing.
One of my best friends is a decent editor and freelance writer. However, he refuses to do any "developmental" editing because the money he feels he would have to charge is too high and those willing to pay such a high sum are usually not possessed of any shred of "talent" thus causing him to basically become a second author and really thats just not what he wants to do.
It ultimately comes down to what you feel you need. Do you need work on your craft?
Then rewrite the story. Break it down, outline it and decide what's important and whats not. Trim the Fat keep the flesh and the odds are better you'll find yourself a better writer with a better product.
Do you need to work on your grammar/technical details?
Then edit again with Strunk and White at your elbow after you've read it 3 times in a row.
posted
This is just my own opinion. To me, if you need a professional editor, you aren't ready to publish your work.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I feel I'd rather learn how to edit well on my own, than have someone else do it for me. I would submit the work to good critiquers, who can offer advice on how to edit it, point out areas I need to improve and offer specific feedback on the work.
Posts: 696 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Writer Beware is a set of topics on the SFWA site. It makes interesting reading when you get to this stage - a manuscript you think is ready to submit. Your case may look like one of the "What to Watch Out For" starting about half way down the page.
posted
This topic has been debated on here before, and I know I am in the minority, but here's what I think.
If you are comfortable spending the money, and can find a legitimate professional, then it is a perfectly viable option. The costs are typically $1-$2 per double-spaced manuscript page for a "diagnostic" editing (the product is usually a 2-5 page report that comments in general terms about the work, plot characterization, pacing, style, etc.). A line editing (a.k.a. "blue pencil") runs about $10 a manuscript page and is a line-by-line markup with detailed suggested changes, rewrites, diction, style, etc.
Historically, agents and executive editors from publishing companies performed the former and copy editors from publishing companies performed the latter at no charge (up-front) to the writer. Much of this has been done away with, or severely curbed, in the modern cost averse business models of the industry.
Is it necessary? No. It would be great if every beginning writer had the experience, skill, and perspective to do this themselves. But most don't. You can still sell without it.
From my own perspective, when I complete revisions on my novel, I will likely go this route, at least as far as the diagnostic reading. I have had extensive correspondance with such an editor who has "retired" from the New York industry and now freelances.
Why would I do this? Well, it's not because I'm looking for some simple, magic fix. The first reason is to get a professional opinion on whether my work is, in general, ready to contend in the market. The second is to get a professional opinion on what the weak points of the specific work are, the big things that will put me at a disadvantage (and the converse, what works in it). It may lead to me undertaking another revision. A concientious editor will tell you if your work is not ready to go.
This will be in parallel to getting peer critiques and having a few non-writer friends/family members read for me.
I am undecided about pursuing the line/copy editing option.
My plan is to use all the resources available to me to submit the best novel I can. I am fortunate enough that I can (with planning) afford to invest several hundred dollars ($575, if my second revision comes out the same length as the first). As I said, I will probably do it. I'm a bit older than the average here, I'd bet, so I'm willing to sacrifice to jumpstart the process. At worst, it will serve as a learning opportunity, cost-wise it's on par with the better known online courses/seminars.
There is risk. There are frauds and scammers out there. Exercise due dilligence. It will cost probably between $500-$7000 dollars, depending on who you hire and how much you want done. Does it make sense for you to invest that much in your particular work at this particular time? It is not necessary; you can work off your own intuition, trial-and-error, books, and free feedback/comments/crits. In my opinion, either way is viable, just carefully choose what is best for you.
quote:I feel I'd rather learn how to edit well on my own, than have someone else do it for me. I would submit the work to good critiquers, who can offer advice on how to edit it, point out areas I need to improve and offer specific feedback on the work.
Submitting work to critiquers is the same as using a professional editor, except you're not paying anyone for their effort.
I think some people confuse an editor with rewriting services (not sure if that's an actual title). There was a book a year or so ago called "How Opal Metha Got Kissed, Got Wild, and Got a Life". Turns out is was complete plaigerism drawn from several sources. The author also went through a rewriting service. That's where you take your book, pay LOTS of money to basically get them to take your plot and characters, and do the writing themselves. It's your basic idea, but they do all the hard work. Such companies exist because people use them, and I'm sure there are successful authors that have used them. When it comes to these services, I feel you shouldn't use it if you can't write it yourself. When it comes to professional editors, sure, use them if you feel they can help.
The benefit of any critique, professional or amateur, is to have someone point out what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong. I have a wonderful friend with a brilliant mind who goes over my novel and tells me what works for him and what doesn't in terms of plot. Then I can decide if I want to make the changes. In my WIP he said he didn't like a certain character. I agreed with his arguments and the character was cut. He also said he didn't like the name of my MC. I kept the name. So, you have to decide what you feel strongly about.
quote:Submitting work to critiquers is the same as using a professional editor, except you're not paying anyone for their effort.
I'm certainly not talking about a rewritting service, but I was under the impression a professional editor actually did edit the work. So, if something is misspelled, they correct it. If grammar is off, they correct that, too. If a paragraph is unclear, the clean it up. They make actual changes to the text, but it affects the writing and not the plot.
A critique would merely point these out. In fact, a critique may merely point out that there are spelling errors in the text, without actually pointing them out in detail.
So this isn't what we're talking about? If they only review without making changes, why are they called editors?
posted
What you are talking about is copyediting. I don't see any problem with it for an author whose grammar skills are a little weak. It's all very well to say improve your skills (I would advise that), but someone who has that problem can take years before they might be confident enough to put something in front of an editor. And it's a bit much to expect your critters to catch every comma error in a lengthy work.
There are a number of legitimate copyeditor services out there. You just have to be careful to get a good one and compare their fees to be sure you aren't over-charged.
Edit: Many editors and agents have a degree (or more than one) in English and expect to see mss that are carefully edited. Getting rid of any possible grammatical errors is well worth some time and effort (and money, if you are confident in the work otherwise).
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited August 17, 2007).]
posted
I thought I'd posted this comment already...odd...anyway, my question was--procedure-wise--how did you get to a point where a lit agent is looking at your fiction? I'm very ignorant, and very curious.
Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I disagree, it sounds to me like he (she?)is not recommending a copy editor. A copy editor will perfect grammatical, punctuation, spelling errors, and could make your manuscript conform to a certain publication style (i.e. chicago manual of style). he or she will not advise you whether or not to use "pop" for a gun shot. Nor do I think he or she will help you with story craft.
I guess what it boils down to is what the agent meant as "craft." And as I'm writing this, the definition is getting blurry (sigh). So here's my best attempt.
Craft does not mean style (as in Strunk and White). Craft means how you tell the story, what words you chose, what scenes you decide to put in, whether you decide to go for a short exposition or to play out a certain scene. All of these things, a copy editor won't touch. So you want something like a critique, but I think this guy is suggesting something professional perhaps because it's a scam, or because he feels a professional editor will more likely be able to identify the problems and offer solutions that will help make the book more marketable.
I'm making a distinction here between marketable and readable/ likable. Critiques of readers and fellow writers is great for the latter--they can tell you when things don't work. But a professional editor may be more experienced at identifying a specific market, or even a specific publisher, and helping you get your manuscript up to that point.
I'm not sold on the idea of professional editing, personally. I think it might be a waste of money. It seems to me you got an extremely favorable response. I'd suggest either revising it, if his or her comments ring true to you, or simply submit it to another agent. It might take many tries before one of them bites, but really, the agents just have their own opinions, and while one might think "pop" doesn't work, another one might think it's great.
I wrote the agent a query letter with a full proposal. The standard way to contact a literary agent is with a query letter, which says "here's my story, here is me, and here is why its a good story." For a better overview, see: http://www.agentquery.com/writer_hq.aspx
Different agencies want letters in different forms, in varying lengths. You can go their their websites and check how they like them. I think you can also talk to them at writers conferences. (See the other thread in this open discussion area right now.)
posted
=========================================== I'm making a distinction here between marketable and readable/ likable. Critiques of readers and fellow writers is great for the latter--they can tell you when things don't work. But a professional editor may be more experienced at identifying a specific market, or even a specific publisher, and helping you get your manuscript up to that point. ============================================
The marketable thing is part of the big question. Take said New Writer - he/she may be a great writer but how do you best market the novel? That may be valuable, but then you would have to get someone knowledgeable in the current market in the given genre.
I am not too proud to think my work is too good to be helped by a hired editor. As long as they don't change the author's voice, and the author has final say, its a business decision: is the paid work going to help the sale enough to recoup the money. I don't know that its that different than paying for a college course or such to improve writing. Again, lit agents and publishers do some of the same work that a professional editor does (its also similar to generous crits form colleagues for that matter), so its not like having one is unscrupulous. I just wonder if its worth the $.
That said, I'm still not sure I would want to spend $500-$7000 on a risk that may or not help the novel. I think it comes down to a personal decision on many factors, including making sure the editor is qualified.
Bill
PS I posted a thread in this open discussion forum about sounds effects. I learned more about using "pop" for a gunshot than I probably would have from an editor. It was a good discussion of sound in general.
posted
========================================= Before you send your work to a book doctor, ask yourself one question.
If this person is such a good writer, why aren't they writing instead of editing? =========================================
To this I will also say there are people who actually enjoy editing more than writing. And there are people who are mediocre writers, but excellent editors.
posted
Writing and editing are different skills. Ideally, the greatest writer in the world should still have an editor review her material, and when I'm looking for a writer (I run a marketing department), I can't look much at editorial skills.
Personally, I know that I can edit much more easily than I can write.
[This message has been edited by oliverhouse (edited August 18, 2007).]
posted
I'm not talking about editors working for a publisher, I'm specifically talking about a book doctor. Yeah, there are legitimate ones out there, but there are also some that are only interested in your money.
posted
======================================================= I just wonder if its worth the $.
That said, I'm still not sure I would want to spend $500-$7000 on a risk that may or not help the novel. I think it comes down to a personal decision on many factors, including making sure the editor is qualified. ========================================================
A reputable editor (I'm not sure about the "book doctors" Spaceman keeps referring to) will provide references and lists of published works they have edited, and freely answer questions about their past editorial experience. Still, it's a risk. If you do find a competent editor, it's probably safe to say by heeding their advice, you can improve your work (book publishers don't retain staffs of these people for giggles), but there will be no guarantee it will get you into the sold category.
posted
Book Doctor is just a fairly common name given to editors who work as independent contractors. They are generally hired by authors who feel they need help polishing a work.
I'd say you'd have to have a lot of confidence in your work to put down that kind of money, but if you feel you can't trust your own judgment (and a second pair of eyes IS valuable) then there are reputable ones out there.
As dee pointed out you want references and to check the reputation. I don't see any reason for people acting like it is a terrible thing to do. When I have critiquers do it, I'm in effect paying for the same thing by returning critiques.
posted
There are a lot of books out there that would help more, and for a lot less money. Remember, the average advance for a first time writer is about $3,000. I'd rather learn how to fix my own stuff, if I can, than shell out a lot of money with no guarantee of success.
For me, I use a few critiquers (my wife and a friend) to point out flaws I can't see. And they seem to do a good job at it.
I recommend this book, it has exercises and bullet-point summaries at the end of each chapter: Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, Second Edition: How to Edit Yourself Into Print
How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy by OSC isn't bad either.
posted
I have just had a fantastically good experience with Oliverhouse cutting down a doughy piece for me, which is certainly an excellent example of why someone with a good eye and (especially in terms of getting something correctly formatted for publication) a working knowledge of the industry can be invaluable. That said, I think it is important to keep in mind that no one will ever care about the author's work, know it inside out, as well as the author does. So, while feedback and a good critical reader are important, I would be loath to turn over my stuff to someone before it's absolutely as finished and complete as I can possibly get it. When I let someone else do my work for me, I always take a chance that they will not "get" something, or will not care about it as much as I do. I'm not saying don't, I'm just saying do all you can, first, and be careful who you pick.
Posts: 1304 | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
but said the craft needed work and recommended a professional editor. He is probably correct about my craft. At the very least I am low on the experience chart.
