posted
I'm a highschool student, and we've been working (far too much in my opinion) on writing five paragraph cookie-cutter essays (for standardized testing). I have a couple problems though, and I hope someone here can explain them to me better than my lit teacher...
3rd person: Why? I always like reading things written (at least essay type things) in first person, yet she jumps all over me for using the words "I" and "we". It always seems that third person is talking at someone, not with someone, something I don't like. Maybe I'm just weird, but I wish she'd give a better reason than an elongated version of "I said so." Any insights?
Said: For some reason she has decided we are not to use the word "said." She gave us a big long list of words to use instead, even though I'd rather use "said" because it's less redundant, and doesn't pull focus away from what's being...well, said. Again, any insights?
I might be missing some crucial reasoning here, but...
posted
Just do the assignment the way the teacher wants it done and get your grade. Only, don't go trying to sell that stuff. High school won't teach you to write something to sell, just to get a grade. If you want to sell what you write, you generally have to teach that to yourself.
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posted
Hmm...article printed, going to give it to her tomorrow...thanks.
Cookie cutter essays are five paragraphs; intro, three details, conclusion. That's it. I can't even set up different paragraph numbers to compare two characters...
I do write it and get the grade, but it irks me all the same. She probably won't change, but you never know unless you try.
posted
Let's see if I can shine some light on this. I write my share of essays (more than fiction, really - thanks, university), and this is what I've been taught:
3rd person: The essay isn't about you. (Unless, of course, the essay is about you, and that's a whole different story!) It's taken as a given that your statements are your own conclusions, so throwing an "I" in there is redundant. You can find "I" used in upper-level essays when original research is involved and it's absolutely necessary to state, "I found that _____." Stylistically, "I" comes off as weak in an essay; allowing "I" leads to things like "I think" or "I found out that," which are all no-nos except in personal essays. Facts are facts, and the point of an essay is to present your findings as a fact, supporting them persuasively with evidence. No trace of the writer should be in an academic argument. You have to talk at your reader, as brusque as it can seem to just slap all the facts down on the table.
Said: Unless your source is an actual piece of voice media, "said" is just inaccurate. It may seem nitpicky, but there are plenty of other words that can function much better than said. Enough to make a list, it seems.
Cookie-cutter essay lessons are annoying, and some of the advice my teachers in highschool handed me was later shown to be flimsy at best. But in the case of the third person and the said rules, generally teachers/professors care about seeing them adhered to. Just stylistic English rules.
posted
Remember that your teacher is probably not a professional writing and High School does not teach at a professional level. There are two things you should probably consider.
1) This can be a positive learning experience for both of you.
The teacher is simply wrong to discourage the use of "said," while seeking alternatives. "Said" is a wonderfully invisible word. Readers breeze right by it without getting tripped up in the narrative. Other tags, and adverbs too, more often than not disrupt the narrative. That doesn't mean they should never be used--but they should be used sparingly, and only when they are more effective than not using them.
Cut her some slack, though. This is a very common error in K through 12 teaching. You could do some counting in some professional writing and make some comparisons with your own works. Show them to the teacher in a positive way, and you both may benefit from what you find.
You can also find some writing instruction books that discuss it to show her. They will all pretty much say the same--use "said" when you need a tag and avoid alternative tags. (I think Elizabeth George, a professional mystery writer, discusses it in her book Write Away.)
2) There may be good reasons for what they do, even if you--and even professional writers don't understand it.
I'm not sure why they discourage the use of first person at the High School level, but I remember getting the same (many years ago). It is entirely possible that it has more to do with the cognitive level of a teenager than good writing. For example, it could simply be that teenagers have an extreme tendency towards first person, and insisting on third person is a way to discipline their writing in alternate ways. It could actually train you away from extreme tendencies, and address certain ways of expression that you wouldn't face as well or as often in first person.
I'm only speculating. But even if you are right to want to do something your way, it is good to get practice working with annoying limitations. ***It prepares you for the real world where you will find many, many annoying limitations***. I would simply make the best of it--and, of course, there is nothing to stop you from using first person with your personal projects.
I hope that's helpful. Good luck!
ciao, Mark
[This message has been edited by mfreivald (edited November 07, 2007).]
posted
I agree with Marzo about what he said regarding 3rd person. Keep in mind that the OSC article (and my thoughts above) is about *fiction* writing, not essays.
There may be a level of accuracy demanded in essays that require some breaking of the "said" rule, but I would conjecture that deviating from said hurts accuracy more than helps it, because the other tags are generally much more subjective.
posted
If it's reporting, then "I" should be used only in minimal doses. If it's opinion, then "I" is a vital component.
Using words for "said" when "said" will do strikes me as bad literary advice. In an essay, it'll only add editorial comment to a quote or paraphrase. ("So-and-so said that," as opposed to, say, "So-and-so opined that," or "So-and-so sneered that.") Could you put up some of the alternate words in question?
posted
I am currently in school to become an English teacher, so I have explicit knowledge of your teacher's purposes here. I've taken the same classes that I'm sure she took. The cookie-cutter essay format, while it annoys me, to, does have a valid purpose. The majority of high school students do not undertand how to make an assertion and then support it with evidence. The five paragraph essay is a way to show students how that works. Is it boring and restrictive? Absolutely, but it shows a student who would otherwise be lost with organizing an essay how to it's supposed to be done. It's a crutch for those who need it.
Do I plan on teaching 5 paragraph essays in my classes? When it's necessary to help my students learn how to organize an essay. Otherwise, no. After all, I have to grade the papers, and I'm not excited about reading 150 cookie-cutter 5 paragraph essays.
The first-person thing is actually a legitimate rule for EVERYBODY in academic writing. As explained above, the purpose is to keep your essay objective and scientific. In short, nobody cares about your opinion or your thoughts. The purpose of an academic essay is presenting factual information or fact-based argument, not giving your own opinions, even when what you're writing IS your own opinion. The reader already knows it's your own argument you're presenting. Inserting yourself into the essay only takes attention away from the ideas you're presenting.
You don't have to agree with everything your teacher says, but at least give her the benefit of the doubt. She went to school for at least four years (maybe longer, depending on what state you live in) to become a teacher, and she's sure to have picked up a few pieces of knowledge and wisdom along the way that you don't have yet. Concerning academic writing, I can guarantee she has done her fair share of it (as has any college graduate), and she knows what you will be expected to do in the future with academic writing.
Now, as far as the "said" rule she gave you, that's a rule that I've heard a lot of English teachers give that I can't defend. It is simply bad advice. I'm guessing your English teacher is not a fiction writer. Not everyone who is interested in English writes fiction.
posted
I'm a lawyer; I write for a living. I only very, very rarely use "I" in my writing, and usually only if I have to explain to a Court what I did, for example, when I'm asking for attorneys fees for my work. The point of an essay is NOT to talk "with" anyone--it's to present information from an (at least facially) objective standpoint. "I" just isn't appropraite.
The five-paragraph cookie cutter thing is restrictive, but it could be worse. You do have a significant amount of liberty to say what you want within that format. Think of the limited format as a challenge; like a haiku.
What your teacher is making you do now is not ideal, but necessary, just like a crawling is not an ideal form of transportation, but necessary to learn to walk. The real problem with K-12 education is that the teachers force everyone in a class of 20 to crawl because 1 student needs it, even if 15 can walk and 4 are ready to run. It's irritating, it's dumb, and even odds say that your teacher might not know effective essay writing if it bit her. But you can learn from it, and any practice you get writing is valuable. As was said above, grit your teeth, learn what you can from it, get your grade, and then move on to writing what you want to write.
posted
OSC's main argument against using words other than "said" is that, in dialog, you should be able to tell how the person said the words from the actual WORDS, not from the "angrily" or "happily" or "condensendingly".
It's a great article and I'm glad you printed it out for your teacher. I hope it makes a difference. Even if a teacher has to adhere to a certain cirriculum, he/she can at least make it apparent to his/her students that there IS in fact another way to write if they want to try it...
posted
Thanks guys...I understand now where she's coming from on the 3rd person thing. I still don't like it, but I get it.
Gave her the OSC article today, waiting for a response.
I'm also kind of irked by the books we've been reading (they're all so old...I have nothing against classics, but I wish we'd read something written by an author who's not dead). Oh well, thanks for the help.
posted
Actually, I never had much use for English classes, from high school through college. I started writing seriously just before I started high school...English literature only rarely had any books I was interested in reading...and it didn't seem that English composition had anything in it that I didn't already know. (In the latter, the "A" grades fooled me.)
All these years later, though...well, I probably could have gotten more out of them than I was willing to take at the time. A self-review of my early writing, back at the beginning of this new century, told me my writing didn't "straighten up and fly right" until about ten years before that, by which time I'd been out of school for, oh, just over ten years. I was doing something wrong...why didn't I deign to try and correct it?
So go through with your assignments. Ask why the teacher wants you to not use "said" or "I" or the reason behind any other instruction you're given. If the teacher is any good, there must be a reason.
quote:If the teacher is any good, there must be a reason.
A teacher is not always going to know or remember every reason behind a method. It's better if she does, of course, but building on the successful work and methods of those who came before her may not give her a clear idea of why it is successful.
quote:Gave her the OSC article today, waiting for a response.
Your not the keep-your-head-down-and-mouth-shut type are you?
I know the same advice is in a Writer's Digest article of about 1990 or 1991, too. And I think it might have been in Steven King's On Writing or one of my other few writing books. The point is, it isn't just OSC that believes said is invisible.
In fact, I daresay that the only time you'll find the opposite advice is in high school English--or from those who are a product of high school English. I could be wrong though.
posted
I was thinking about this, and your teacher might have a point. We all agree generally that "said" is the most appropriate dialog tag in fiction. That doesn't make it the most appropriate tag for source citation in an essay. The Oxford English Dictionary, or an encyclopedia, or any resource book doesn't "say" anything--at least not the way Frodo "says" something to Sam. "Said" is informal, and while not positively wrong, is probably inappropriate for a formal essay. "Notes," "states," "sets forth," "observes," "holds," "advises," "speculates," "contends," and "suggests" are all more appropriate for that format.
quote: Dear Miss Manners: My home economics teacher says that one must never place one's elbows on the table. However, I have read that one elbow, in between courses, is all right. Which is correct?
Gentle Reader: For the purpose of answering examinations in your home economics class, your teacher is correct. Catching on to this principle of education may be of even greater importance to you now than learning correct current table manners, vital as Miss Manners believes that is.
quote:A teacher is not always going to know or remember every reason behind a method.
I'd be inclined not to trust a teacher who didn't know the reason behind the method. You can learn the multiplication table by rote---most people do---but if the teacher doesn't understand the why of it, how will the students?
posted
I'm a bit confused on if we're talking about fiction or essay in this thread, now. The rules are different. Well, I know we've said a lot about both. I mean, I'm not sure which kind of writing Vanderbleek is doing and asking about.
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