posted
Since I have begun submitting my works to various markets, I've come across a thing I was only vaguely aware of before: the concept of "character driven" stories, often as an oposite to "plot driven" stories.
When I first saw "character driven" mentioned in the guidlines for some markets I thought it seemed a little odd, since most stories generally have characters, and are moved along by the action of those characters. But, I thought to myself perhaps there is some more specific definition of the phrase that they are using. So, I did a little research, and what I found seems to be that like most labels, different people have different ideas of what it means. Also, some seem to attach a value judgement to it, while others dont.
The only sort of specific definition I've seemed to find is that some feel a "character driven" story is one that is primarily about the characters feelings and how the character changes as a person, whereas "plot driven" stories are more about the things that are happening in the story.
Personally, I see all aspects of a story as very closely intertwinned, and also I would say a story can be driven by character actions, character development, plot, setting or atomosphere. But, I'd like to get the thoughts of others, both on a personal level, and as far as how you think publishers think of these things.
posted
Hmm..could character driven refer to stories where the point of the whole story is that the character changes? Coming of age stories are like that. Lots of social fiction plots focus on that aspect of story.
Then there are the ones where the character remains unchanged -- your typical Conan story for example.
Even some where the MC changes his attitude or something but the point of the story is an action (saving the princess, killing his mother's murderer, destroying the evil law firm, winning the batttle, etc.), those are plot driven stories?
posted
Hmm..could character driven refer to stories where the point of the whole story is that the character changes? Coming of age stories are like that. Lots of social fiction plots focus on that aspect of story.
This is the closest thing to a real definition of the concept as near as I can tell. I think much "literary fiction" tends to fall more or less into this category. Stories that are more or less entirely about a character and his development as a person.
Of course, from the perspective of fantasy/horror/sci fi, this can be rather difficult since by nature stories in this genre feature and are about fantastical elements. I suppose one could have a story like this where the charcter happens to be a dragon or something :-)
Then there are the ones where the character remains unchanged -- your typical Conan story for example.
Yes. However, this brings up something I didnt go into much in the initial post. Value judgements, and intent. It seems some, especially more "literary" types consider "character driven" fiction to be inherently superior to other types, but to me, its about intent. Robert E. Howard wasn't setting out to tell stories about complex emotions and personal evolution, he wanted to tell adventure stories.
Even some where the MC changes his attitude or something but the point of the story is an action (saving the princess, killing his mother's murderer, destroying the evil law firm, winning the batttle, etc.), those are plot driven stories?
This here is the real crunch. In most stories, the characters, plot, setting and mood are all important. Character and plot especially are closely tied, since its hard to have a plot without characters.
Also, especially in the context of short fiction, its hard to have a highly complex plot, or a lot of super in depth character development, when your working in the 2k-6k word range.
In some ways I guess I am just trying to get an ever-better bead on what publishers mean when they use this terminology.
posted
I think when you have both a significant change in character of the MC and an exciting action plot you could probably draw a line depending on where the focus of the story really is.
Say you have this MC who has been hired to assassinate FDR. As he goes through the preparations and maybe a failed attempt for two story events happen which bring to his attention how evil Stalin actually is. In the end he makes his decision to shoot Stalin instead of FDR despite his own family suffering because of it. Or something. Can you see where the story events shown in the novel could put the character changing stuff ahead or more in focus or more poignant than the shooting stuff? When the two focii are equal, I guess you have some nebulous in-betweener of a story, neither action or character oriented but both.
Maybe there is no hard line of demarcation. It's a continuum from the Conan action to the most hand-wring-y bit of fine literature. Then every editor/agent has his or her own point of demarcation.
posted
One person I saw posting somewhere online said that most "literary" types see all "genre" fiction as plot driven, and therefore (in many cases) inferior.
And certainly, like I said...in horror/fantasy/sci fi, *what happens* is usually going to be important...but the characters are as well, generally.
Personally, I just tend to see stories as stories, and it seems like merit and quality and fitting the market should come first....but, the guidlines for one market I looked at actually stated, among other things, that if your character doesnt change significantly in the course of the story its *not a story*. which I find absurd.
posted
The first thing I thought of when I read "plot driven" was Foundation. This isn't at all because the characters aren't developed or interesting, but because it is clearly about the 1000 year plan.
Dan Brown novels also feel this way for me. Everything is set up to happen, (what some call contrived), and it is more the character chasing a carrot on a string.
To me it is like distinguishing between a comedy and an action movie. Mony of them have both, (along with other genre types thrown in), but it is the prevelant genre (or advertisment) that labels it.
posted
Quite the contray JIP. Foundation is so a character driven book. It just happens to have several different characters to drive the plot. Character driven books are ones like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Dune etc... Characters move the plot along. Things are seen from their perspective. You are following them as the story progresses. I once wrote a story that wasn't character driven. It was written as a series of newspaper articles and TV newsprograms following events as they unfolded. Of the people that read it, they pretty much told me it was long info-dump. I believe that is the reason why editors specify 'character driven' submissions. They don't want info-dumps that tell the story. Books like that look like a Sci-Fi text book.
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posted
Foundation felt plot driven to me because I knew it wasn't as much their decisions which propelled the story as much as it was Hari Seldon's predictional play-out.
Everything will happen as he said it will happen, so it felt like the characters were meeting the agenda of the story, not the other way around.
You are most likely correct, especially because I really don't know that much about either. It must have been a case of thinking too much while reading (I.E. Knowing that it all must play out because of the prediction).
Thank you for correcting me. As MSN says, "No one likes to look dumb"
posted
Quite the opposite, JIP. I needed to think about it before I came to the conclusion that it was indeed a character driven story. As far as what makes a plot driven story I really can't answer. Every story that I can think of is 'character driven' at least the published ones are. Character driven does not mean it needs to stay in one characters perspective. A character doesn't even need to be a person. It can be an animal, object, or something out of the ordinary. Asimov's stories would have a robot telling the story. Harry Turtledoves novels have multitudes of characters all telling a story from their own perspective. He employes a style that tells a 600 page novel in 2000 to 3000 word segements in short story form set in chronological order. Each segement is in a single character perspective. It works very well. What editors don't want are info-dumps and POV switches in the middle of the scene. Only one POV should relaying events at a time. They don't want.
Jane gave him the smile that she knew he always liked. She wants me, he thought.
That is jumping from one characters perspective back to anothers. Very bad. Okay, that's enough of my lame version of how to write.
A character driven story is one in which the character drives the story (profound, right?) This story could not happen unless the character took the actions that he/she did. For example, in Stephen King's It, the novel would have stopped had the characters not decided to come home and fight the monster. The novel would have been plot-driven had the monster sought them out (probably).
I always try to write character driven stories, because that's what I like to read (I think you'll also find that's what gets published). A plot-driven story, in which the characters react to the world around them, and in which events drive the story, just seems weaker to me.
I once wrote a story about two guys that go caving, discover a demon, one immediately goes crazy, and the other slowly sinks into madness/possession. Plot-driven. I reworked it to be more character driven: Two guys go caving, one goes crazy, the other realizes that he is sinking into madness, figures out why, and seeks out said demon. It ended up being a very different story, but also a very improved story, and I felt much more attached to my character while writing.
I'd advise that exercise to anyone. Take a story you have written wherein the plot controls the characters (ie, characters are acted upon, the actions of the characters do not influence the plot, etc), and figure out how you could adjust it make it character driven. I imagine you'll have similar results to those I had - a stronger story and more vivid characters.
quote:Character driven books are ones like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Dune etc
quote:Character driven does not mean it needs to stay in one characters perspective. A character doesn't even need to be a person. It can be an animal, object, or something out of the ordinary. Asimov's stories would have a robot telling the story. Harry Turtledoves novels have multitudes of characters all telling a story from their own perspective. He employes a style that tells a 600 page novel in 2000 to 3000 word segements in short story form set in chronological order. Each segement is in a single character perspective. It works very well.
Hmmm...interesting. This is not quite the oposite, but very un-like many of the definitions my online research uncovered, especially from a more "literary" standpoint. Many, apparently, feel that a story is only truly "character driven" if the story is primarily about the character and his/her changes and development as a person.
However...
quote:What editors don't want are info-dumps and POV switches in the middle of the scene. Only one POV should relaying events at a time. They don't want.
I did think to myself that, especially with markets that accept sci fi, they do probably have a fear of Arthur C. Clarke type stuff thats more technological disertation than story.
However...again...
quote:Do make your characters live through your words, for characters carry your story. A good story is not about an event or a circumstance or a moral question, but about how your protagonists and antagonists respond to the stimuli of the event or circumstance or moral question. In a proper story, your protagonist will change in some way as a result of the circumstances or events. If your protagonist does not change, you have not written a story.
Thats from the submission guidlines of an actual market. Beside being incredibly pompous and narrow minded, it indicates that oposite end of the spectrum for the character-driven concept...stories where the character is the story.
quote:A character driven story is one in which the character drives the story (profound, right?) This story could not happen unless the character took the actions that he/she did. For example, in Stephen King's It, the novel would have stopped had the characters not decided to come home and fight the monster. The novel would have been plot-driven had the monster sought them out (probably).
Well, only trouble is, the monster is a character too.
quote:I once wrote a story about two guys that go caving, discover a demon, one immediately goes crazy, and the other slowly sinks into madness/possession. Plot-driven. I reworked it to be more character driven: Two guys go caving, one goes crazy, the other realizes that he is sinking into madness, figures out why, and seeks out said demon. It ended up being a very different story, but also a very improved story, and I felt much more attached to my character while writing.
Hmmm. I'd say they could both be character-driven, in the sense that what happens to the characters, and especially the second characters descent into madness, are central to the story.
On the other hand, by many definitions I have heard, both would be considered "plot driven" or at least not fully "character driven" because the events of the story...going into the cave, the fact that theres a demon, are also central to the story.
Which comes back to the fact that truthfully, I think most stories...especially most fantasy/horror/sci fi stories, have very strong elements of both plot and character. And lets not forget, plot and character isnt all there is...setting and mood are factors to, and the *intent* of a story...for instance, some stories are created to impart some lesson or idea.
However, what your saying is not wrong...and I think your definition of "character driven" (which I see as a story where the characters are very active and there actions move the plot along rather than vice versa) may be what many editors in these sort of markets are on about.
quote:Can anyone give me an example of a Plot-driven novel that is well known? I'm curious to know what they are like in published form.
Well, I think two novels mentioned previously Dune and the Lord of the Rings would be considered mostly "plot driven" by the literary definition, which seems to boil down to "if people read a story to find out *what happens*, its not character-driven."
I'd say a lot of Arthur C. Clarke's stuff, and many other hard sci fi novels are "idea driven", more about certain scientific concepts than character.
None of these concepts really seem to have universally or even generally accepted definitions so its hard to say.
posted
How about -- any James Bond novel? The hero does not change. The story is what happens, the action.
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posted
Have you read Orson Scott Card's writing books (in which he discusses four kinds of stories, three of which could probably be argued to be plot-driven--milieu stories, idea stories, and event stories--and the third kind would be character driven because he calls them character stories)?
OSC's definition of a character story is that it is a story about character ROLE changes. The character desires a specific role and the story is about what the character does to achieve that role, hence, the story is driven by the character's perception of the current role and of the desired role plus the character's efforts to change them--and how the character is changed by the entire experience.
posted
No I havent. Sounds interesting though...if rather narrowly defined.
Personally I feel like trying to group stories into certain, single types is pretty silly, but i guess some in the business consider it important, and it is an interesting concept, so I try to understand.
I like that he acknowledges that if your going to break it down, theres gonna be more than 2 types..
quote:Many, apparently, feel that a story is only truly "character driven" if the story is primarily about the character and his/her changes and development as a person.
and
quote: and how the character is changed by the entire experience.
For me this is the essential difference. All stories involve elements of plot and character, as has been said. I think that if the character learns nothing, if their personality is essentially the same at the end of the story as it was at the beginning, it's a plot-driven story. If the character changes in some material fashion as a result of the events of the story (aside from getting the girl and living happily ever after) then it's a character-driven story.
I think that much of Science Fiction is plot- (or idea-) driven. The Golden Age stories were typical. In Foundation, and the Robot stories, the characters remained largely as they were; Asimov was interested in the scientific ideas.
Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love" was perhaps the nearest he got to character-driven, although it's debatable; I don't recall his later works but the earlier stuff was all plot and ideas.
James Bond is an excellent example of purely plot-driven stories. Bond is not changed at all by the events of the stories and finishes each one exactly as he was at the start--ready to save the world single handed from the most heinous of villains. (Except Casino Royale, which shaped his character for the rest of the series.) An avid Bond fan, I found Fleming most instructive to read--I think he's a great action writer.
DVC and HP are for me also primarily plot-driven stories, although Harry's character does develop a bit during his seven years at Hpogwarts and JKR does seem to be expressing a certain morality--one of racial tolerance, for example.
I believe editors think that purely plot- or idea-driven stories in SF are a bit bland these days, because audiences are more sophisticated and less likely to believe that science is as wonderful and exciting as the Golden Age thought it was. They still want the plots and ideas, else it wouldn't be SF, but they want authentic, believeable characters. I think that's why they say, taking the example quoted above, "In a proper story, your protagonist will change in some way as a result of the circumstances or events."
I'm hard pressed to think of any decent examples of SF stories where the character changes as a result of the events of the story, except "The Time Traveller's Wife" which, interestingly, lives on the LitFic shelves in English bookshops. (I suspect Asimov's publish several, and I usually find them hard to get in to so I don't read or remember them.)
Cheers, Pat
[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited April 15, 2008).]
posted
I don't mean to divide every work of literature into two categories.
quote:Hmmm. I'd say they could both be character-driven, in the sense that what happens to the characters, and especially the second characters descent into madness, are central to the story.
That would make it a character study. "Character driven" does not mean the same thing as a character study. A character study focuses primarily on the character, and how he changes, etc.
We're talking about what drives a story. If a character's actions propel the story, then it's character driven. I might even argue that James Bond is character driven. Most of those plots would come to a standstill if Bond decided to just chill out.
quote:Well, only trouble is, the monster is a character too.
But the monster is not the character. We are never in the monsters POV (well, maybe once or twice, it's been a while since I read it). The monster is more a force than a character. But, yeah, I guess I can see how you could argue that the monster is an active character. However, our protagonists would still be being acted upon, instead of acting on their world. If someone off-scene is propelling the story, I don't know if you should call that character driven.
Think Indiana Jones. Not a character study, but certainly character driven. If Indy didn't decide to go after those treasures, the plot would not move. And the change in his character is minimal, if there at all (besides the whole immortality thing, but that's more a state of being than a character trait).
When an editor asks for a character driven story, he/she is not asking for a character study. They want a story where the protagonist's actions drive the story.
All this comes from discussions with one of my profs, who got it from his editor at bantam.
quote:When an editor asks for a character driven story, he/she is not asking for a character study. They want a story where the protagonist's actions drive the story.
It seems to me that protag's actions drive stories whether plot- or character-driven. Does the editor at Bantam have a definition of a plot-driven story, or do they not exist for him or her?
posted
Right? I keep hearing the same arguement, and it doesn't make sense to me. Many people continue to say that if the character decided not to act, the story would be over.
Have any of you read velocity? A koontz book where a man is given a letter that someone will die, an old woman if he goes to the cops, and young woman if he doesn't (or vice versa not sure). Either way, the note turns out right, and the MC gets another letter.
He decides to not act. He tells himself that if he doesn't choose, he can't be to blame. Koontz then fleshes out the idea that even inaction is action, by choice.
So my question is, would that be a plot driven story? Or is it in fact a character driven story (since it is surrounding the one man facing the antagonist)?
Also, to be clear on this, I UNDERSTAND what editor's are looking for, and what they want, what I don't understand is the difference between these two forms of stories.
It's beginning to look like every story is both, depending on how you argue it.
Sorry for the continued confusion, I just really don't understand this very well. Thank you for all help.
quote:It seems to me that protag's actions drive stories whether plot- or character-driven. Does the editor at Bantam have a definition of a plot-driven story, or do they not exist for him or her?
Hmm. I don't know. My discussions have been about character-driven stories versus stories where the characters are only acted upon. My previous comment was on what I thought the editor meant by "character-driven." I think there is a lot of gray area between character-oriented stories and plot-oriented stories. But I have read lots of stories where character's actions do not drive the story - not published stories, mind you. For example - two kids swimming at night, one gets abducted by aliens. Man wakes up to slowly realize he has a computer implanted in his head. Man has run-in with demon and is slowly driven mad. Man is kidnapped and framed for murder. Man is kidnapped and taken to an island which is really the garden of Eden. These stories just happen to the characters. The actions of the characters do not drive the plot.
JustInProse:
What you described sounds like a plot-driven story. But I assume at some point the MC makes up his mind to go after the bad guy, and thus starts taking control of the plot. I do agree that every story contains both plot and character development and it can usually be argued that either one drives the story. However, that argument is academic, and I do enough of that in class.
posted
This is why I think OSC's and Kathleen's description of the distinctions is most helpful. All stories have elements of all the drivers and it's a question of emphasis: modern editors appear to want more emphasis on character and its interaction with plots and ideas.
I don't believe "character-driven" is the opposite of stories that feature passive characters. My understanding is that stories of passive characters, where everything happens to them, simply don't get published because they're boring, so they're hardly worth classifying beyond "boring"--or "literature" <ducks quickly ;-) >
quote:For me this is the essential difference. All stories involve elements of plot and character, as has been said. I think that if the character learns nothing, if their personality is essentially the same at the end of the story as it was at the beginning, it's a plot-driven story. If the character changes in some material fashion as a result of the events of the story (aside from getting the girl and living happily ever after) then it's a character-driven story.
Yes, this seems a pretty widely acceptable definition. I would add, that to me at least a story where perhaps the character doesnt undergo a huge change, but where many of the events or especially the "payoff" of the story are strongly bound up with the characters traits, or history could be considered rather character driven. Especially if they involve the character learning things about their life, past etc that they didn't previously know.
Also, I think many, many stories, especially in fantasy and horror are basically both. Lord of the Rings for example...its VERY much about the end of the Third Age, and the Fall of Sauron...but its also VERY much about Frodo and his journey from happy hobbit to a deeply wounded person who nevertheless has great wisdom and spiritual strength.
I think Harry Potter would be a lot of both too. The writing itself is very plot centric...I see JKR as more of a mystery writer than anything stylistically, but Harry does change a lot, and learn a lot about himself.
posted
I have to disagree with that definition pretty strongly. By the usual definitions, being character-driven or being plot-driven is not divided by whether the character is changed at the end of the story. This is largely irrelevant.
In a plot-driven story the character may or may not be changed. What makes it plot driven is whether there is a story without the outside events or plot. In Lord of the Rings, without Sauron trying to take over the world there is no story. It is plot-driven.
It has wonderful characters many of whom change in the course of the novels. But the important part is whether or not they destroy the ring and save the world. Would we care about Sam and Frodo if they weren't out physically struggling to Mordor to get rid of that ring? No, actually we wouldn't. They'd be mildly amusing characters at most even if somehow they experienced changes.
In a character-driven story the plot is whether or not the character changes. It is rare in a character-driven story for the character not to, but it is possible. It would normally be a tragic story since for a character not to change means failure.
Some people mistake a character-driven story to be one in which readers like the character. Again, this is not the point. The point of the division is what is the essential point of the novel.
An interesting question (to me anyway) is to read Metamorphosis and decide whether it is plot-driven or character-driven.
Because of course since it is an artificial division many successful novels are a combination of the two. Ask yourself if we would care if Sam and Frodo saved the world without their interior struggle and change. Probably not--or not to the extent which we do. Still it is possible to make the division if you want to by simply asking what the essential plot is. If it's exterior it's plot-driven. If it's interior, it's character-driven. Madame Bovary is in my opinion very clearly character-driven. Les Miserable whatever changes the character go through is still plot-driven.
Card's description of the character-driven story as one in which the charcter wants to change their role is probably as close as you can get. I'm not sure I totally agree with the description, but in it the character either wants to or is forced to face change of themselves in some way--not change of their environment.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited April 16, 2008).]
quote:In a character-driven story the plot is whether or not the character changes.
Thanks for the clarification, JeanneT. I agree--not least because I realized today that one of my stories is character-driven, and the resolution is that MC's character stays the same despite events that might have changed it. (He maintains his moral code despite attempts at coercion.)
posted
I am begining to think one of the pivots of this concept has to do with drive on one hand, and purpose on the other.
quote:We're talking about what drives a story. If a character's actions propel the story, then it's character driven. I might even argue that James Bond is character driven. Most of those plots would come to a standstill if Bond decided to just chill out.
This is certainly one way of looking at it. That stories with characters that take action and move the plot along are "character driven." Certainly, its linguistically accurate.And in thie view, "plot driven" stories are those where events tend to just happen to the characters first, rather than characters going out and making events happen. And stories without a lot going on at all plot wise, that are focused on character development become "character studies."
However, many of the definitions or discussions I have seen of "character driven" and "plot driven" take the view that stories that people read mainly to see what happens are "plot driven" or at least not "character driven".
In this view, any story where events of some kind are a main focus (as in the majority of "genre" fiction) are "plot driven" regardless of whether the events happen and characters react to them or the characters go out and make events happen. And in this view, "character driven" stories are those where events and plot are not all that important...the character(s) and their development are all that really matters (this being the "character study" of the other viewpoint.)
I tend to see it thus: In a story with both plot and characters, the two are going to be nigh inseperable. The characters move the plot, and the plot changes the characters and/or vice versa. And so for me, "character driven" almost has to mean "nearly eventless character study," and so still some times leaves me wondering what editors of fantasy/sci fi/etc magazines mean...although some times, I realize it just means they want active characters.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited April 16, 2008).]
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