posted
Could as many as possible vote on the first 13 competition? You don't have to crit, just vote for the best title and your 1st, 2nd, 3rd actual first 13 lines--hookiest.
Posts: 2995 | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
I write very different intros for the competition than I do when I write an actual story. I think I try and squeeze too much in--something I don't really concern my self with when I write a story.
When writing a story I am happy with a subtler hook but for the competition I find myself thinking about how others may approach it and trying to do something different.
I am dubious of the competition's relevance to actual story creation--certainly in my own case--but I can't speak for others.
HOWEVER...it is fun and I certainly think it allows for the practice and demonstration of hooks.
posted
What have I learned. I try to hard for the hook. Way too hard. But I knew that before I started. This challenge though has made me look at every single word, and space, in order to get the most in. Also has taught me, don't include ever character, and everything, it is to crowded and confusing.
[This message has been edited by Tiergan (edited May 19, 2008).]
posted
It's been a strange experience for me starting a story when I know the whole arc. Usually I dive in with little more than instinct to guide me. It's hard to find a way in. Sometimes you can see many different stories in one synopsis. Which one to tell? Which one is the msot compelling?
I've learned I tend to start the story waaaay to soon. I'm always thinking "book" vs. "short story."
I've also discovered I do better when I don't force myself to write an action-packed opening.
I've learned there are as many openings, and styles, as there are people, and as many audiences as there are openings. It sometimes surprises me when someone doesn't like something I like, or vice versa. It's almost more fun for me reading through the critiques and seeing what others thought of the same story, what they might have missed that I picked up, or what I might have over looked entirely.
A better test would be to have the entries judged by a panel of folks who hadn't read the synopsis. Sometimes I think the entries would be too confusing if people didn't know the synopsis, but since most have read it, no one is confused. So now if I can't join in the challenge I try to judge it without having read the synopsis.
posted
One unexpected thing I have learned from the competition is the variety of ways a story can be started. I don't mean just how, but also when, where, and in what POV. I feel as though I should be writing out several intros to my stories, 13 line challenges, and see which one works the best.
I've also found that I'm not very good, which isn't necessarily a eureka moments for me, but it gives me something to shoot for.
The biggest thing it has done for me is forced me to explore EVERY facet of a story. When I come up with my stories, essentially a synopsis, I usually look at them so one dimensional (two if I'm lucky). After the competetion, I've started to ask myself over and over many questions such as:
Who should be the most important and interesting person to start the story with?
What information does not need to be told to the reader?
What POV should this story be in?
Along with many others. I had usually subconciously asked myself these questions, but the challenge has highlighted them for me.
Even though I don't always compete, I always observe.
posted
I like the idea of it being judged by a panel too--although I would want them to experienced writers, preferably published. I would imagine a panel of three.
Perhaps there is a way we could do this? What do others think?
Perhaps Kathleen would volunteer to chair the panel with a rotating two other judges.
posted
This was my first try at a challenge, and I think I learned a lot. We'll see if it actually crosses over into my real writing. The first thing I learned is that trying to put too many hooks into 13 lines is probably worse than putting no hooks at all in. I guess a good rule would be: One hook, maybe two if they are small and interrelated, no matter how cool I think my ideas that don't make it into the 13 are.
This also helped me realize that I never start writing with a real hook. I tend to start the story right when a big change is about to occur and the character is feeling introspective about the past. Perhaps I'm not starting in the right place. Or starting with the wrong characters. I'll have to ponder that. How do you figure it out?
posted
I've learned that even the greatest of ideas can have a terribly difficult-to-identify beginning point.
I've learned that what appeals to me (and why) if often hugely different from what appeals to some of the rest of you.
I've learned it's a lot of fun (and hard work as well) critiquing your own opening in such a way that others will see some quality in it but deprecating it enough that when you don't vote for it someone won't be able to deduce what entry is yours from the critiques you've offered.
I've learned that my viewpoint isn't always the best.
Finally.... I don't think a having Kathleen involved in the voting is entirely necessary, not in such an offical manner. Her position here at Hatrack connotes a certain amount of detachment from the general coming and going we all take part in, and I think she needs to maintain a slight bit of distance from us without becoming directly involved in this competition. I'd still welcome her votes on the same platform as the rest of us if she would like, but having Kathleen set-up as Hatrack's Permanent Security Council Member with the rest of us as rotating Elected Members doesn't seem like a good way to go about solidciting her input. I think the current system works fine.
If you want offical critiques by a panel of experienced published writers, there are plenty of writing contests out there.
posted
Ironically, I have given much thought to the problems associated with a single synopsis for all of the contestants because everyone knows more than any other reader would.
However, I've come to the conclusion that there needs to be a stock of synopses written up and a random number given them, and each contestant can choose a number and get the sympsis in an email. (Of course, the names of the synopses submitters would have to be recorded so it didn't come back to them, and the reveal would have to include the synopses, but a more honest judging could be made, and the resulting discussion would teach us much more.) It doesn't completely eliminate the foreknowledge-problem (two peaople will definitely know which one was had by whom, and--if it's good enough--the writer of it will make a third.) OR the moderater could write like 4 synopses and divide the contestants into 4 groups, each judging the next higher number (obviously group four would have to jugde group 1).
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited May 20, 2008).]
posted
Alright, I was planning on volunteering to moderate someday, but that day just got MUCH farther away.
Posts: 938 | Registered: May 2008
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quote:...but having Kathleen set-up as Hatrack's Permanent Security Council Member with the rest of us as rotating Elected Members doesn't seem like a good way to go about soliciting her input.
posted
Although I am interested in the voting procedure. It works as it is, but I wonder if the idea of a panel could be explored. Perhaps the Moderator could select two (or three) from among previous Captains and then they judge all the (the two judges) entries, based on hook, prose etc.--so a little more analytically than currently.
the judges would avoid looking at the page with the synopsis.
Then each entry would get 2-3 detailed crits--perhaps scoring them on a few criteria. The judges would do this independently of each other. Then it would just be a case of totaling points for each entry and each judge to find the winner/s.
Just an idea...however what we do currently is the simplist way of doing it.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited May 20, 2008).]
posted
Except that I think part of the appeal is that there are so many different opinions... I threw the panel idea out there as a sort of daydream. Not sure how feasible it really is.
IB, as for the random synopses, I played with that idea, too. But part of the point, to me, anyway, is that we all work from the same synopsis, so it's a matter of who does most with what we're given. The more variables we're given the harder it is to assess what's the result of the writer and what's the result of the synopsis.
I am intrigued by the idea of having, say, four different groups. Kind of like how the Liberty Hall challenges are divided up, I guess.
posted
If we had four different groups, would we have four different moderators, or just one? It seems to me that creating four synopsisi (each one worked on equally by the moderator) would be a LOT of work for one person.
I guess the biggest question we would have to find out, is who all is in to the writing challenge. Groups of four sounds cool, but if we only have 10 participants (including moderators, judges, and writers) then that leaves 2 groups of 2, and 2 groups of 3.
I like the idea that you all are developing, but we would need an enrollment list.
posted
It would be interesting either way. One moderator could keep track of the groups (say 1-4) and the usual overall stories and synopses (say A-D). Each of the four team leaders could present a synopses to the moderator to be switched to a different group, then distribute the received synopsis to his or her group. Then, everyone would email their entries to the moderator, who would make group posts. In fact, that way, everyone not in group A could crit and vote for it, and so on for the rest.
And it could work for any number more than 1 group.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited May 21, 2008).]
I'm kind of a come and go member here, but I've been paying particular attention to the weekly challenge over the last 2 months. It's a good way to get at least a little writing and creativeness in when I don't have a chance to even think about working on a piece during the week.
I honestly think the only change you should make to the contest is to have the next week moderator have their synopsis ready a week early. This would divert any problems regarding that weeks moderator having an emergency and not able to post and help keep things smooth.
Voting and subgroups and panels all sound way more diluted than what I thought these challenges were created for; As a new member it complicates something that doesnt have to be complicated and is a turn off.
IMHO, I'd be happy with seeing a synopsis each week, entrying my 13, reading others 13 to see a beautiful variety of creativeness, and seeing which one was most liked. That's it, that's all.
posted
On reflection I am in agreement with Devnal.
I participated in the first few and then dipped out for a while but recently have participated again. The beauty of the current format is its simplicity. I don't mind if moderators mix it up by defining a character or event or even an object they want to see in the first 13.
If we have four groups it will be impossible to run the competition some weeks if enough people don't put their names forward--then it will die as disappointed people don't bother putting their names forward again.
Currently it works with as few as four people (including the moderator (who has a chance to over-think his/her entry and still not win!).
I vote for the current format to remain, although I would like the new moderator to declare he has completed his synopsis a week early. If they don't do it then the next moderator can step in.
I also think timings need to be clearly defined. Synopsis needs to posted anytime on Friday. Entries to the moderator by anytime on the following Wednesday. Judging closes Sunday night, with results posted on Monday. The moderator needs to inform contestants which time zone is home.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited May 21, 2008).]
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited May 21, 2008).]
posted
It's kind of flattering and humiliating reading many of the posts. The biggest problem that people have with the challenge seems to be people messing up the timing.... :P
posted
I don't currently participate (too over-extended, sigh) but have peeked in at the contest in the past. It's a great idea, and I hope people are finding stories generated from the concept of the first 13 challenge.
If ever you need a "blind" (hasn't read the synopsis) judge, let me know. I'm not published, but I'm hoping to rectify that situation someday soon.
Meanwhile, keep up with the writing! This was an interesting thread. I'll be honest, openings aren't my shortcoming, it's the endings I have trouble with (rolling eyes, sigh) so it's something I haven't felt the need to particiapte in, however seeing the wide range of what everyone feels they have learned from this is giving me second thoughts...
posted
Timing hiccups are bound to happen no matter what a group of people are doing. Having a system setup to deal with these problems (eg week 2 mod having synopsis done up in advance) helps everything stay on track and cuts down on confusion. Obviously people here have other things to do in life. I think having week 2 as back up would help squash unforeseen problems that weeks mod may have with posting
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posted
I will be sitting out this coming challenge. So, I won't read the synopsis, but will vote, and give crit. on all entries. It should give a outside perspective. I'm curious to see how many I am lost on. Posts: 1168 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I can't say I've gotten much out of the contest. I've read them, or at least scanned them, but not as attentively as some of the other things going on here.
quote:I'll be honest, openings aren't my shortcoming, it's the endings I have trouble with....
I seem to recall being in on a mini-workshop at a science fiction convention several years ago with Allen Wold (if I remember correctly). He did a "write a hook" exercise, and then he did a "wrap up this story idea--write an ending" exercise.
I wonder if we could try something like that with the synopses we've already got in the writing challenges.
posted
Well, if the problems with endings are how to end stories, it wouldn't necessarily need to be text. It could just be summary.
Example: if the synopsis were to be of the Lord of the Rings, a post could be something like
quote:The two little guys get to the volcano, but when they try to destroy the ring, their erstwhile guide attacks them and all three of them fall into the molten lava. The rest of the good guys know the ring is destroyed, but are never able to find the ones who sacrificed to make it happen. So their friends return to their homeland and erect a monument to their names, and children in that land grow up a little more adventurous because of the stories that they are told about the two brave heroes.
posted
There are two things about that idea that I don't like.
First, I want to write. The 13 line challenge is fun because it not only forces ideas, but also writing. We learn which POV to use, how much action, what type of flow, etc. This is a minor annoyance though.
Second, judging. For me, judging an ending paragraph would be odd. There is no prose to go off of. So, its basically, who has the best idea.
I like what you are aiming for, but I am afraid that some of the other posters might have been right when they said that we are making this too complicated. (I know I love to do that, and it usually doesn't work out so well)
posted
Thanks for the suggestion, KDW. Even if it doesn't hook in with the hook weekly contests (LOL), it's still a good idea for me to try. The whole storyline/arc thing is where I struggle. I think I've got the mechanics down, for the most part, but need to work more on story.
I'm reading Story by McKee (yes, still - I've been reading this book for 6+ mos) and he talks about the key points in each story as "reversals" basically reversals of fortune, up/down/up, or down/up/down, etc. It's an interesting concept and I think I'm going to play with an existing story, outline it to see the key scenes/sequences, and then see if I can improve it by looking closer at the turning points and making sure there's sharper contrast from one to the next.
posted
I think Kathleen's idea has merit. Ending a story is just as important (and some would argue more important) than beginning one. If the ending isn't satisfying...
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited May 22, 2008).]
posted
We could leave it [i.e. whether it's the first or last 13] up to the moderator of that week. Or would that make things too confusing?
Posts: 2185 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
I think that regardless of other choices made, the 13 line challenge should be kept as its core function of creating 13 introduction lines off of some type of moderator given beginning/rule/person/peanut butter sandwich.
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