And what's really funny is that I've posted on about a dozen writing sites since I found it and everybody gets a kick out of it and relates it to nutty debates about passive voice back when it was the huge no-no Iin between adverbs and "head-hopping".
This is the only place I've run into opprobrium. And nit-picking.
Want me to delete it or something?
[This message has been edited by LintonRobinson (edited December 06, 2008).]
posted
Passive voice is still considered a sub-optimal way to tell a story around these here parts. But then again in genre fiction, most of us are telling active stories - action-packed space adventures, mystical quests in lands of the fairies, futuristic pod-car chases, and the other melange of speculative fiction. Passive voice, in my opinion, is not as much of a challenge for speculative fiction writers.
quote:And what's really funny is that I've posted on about a dozen writing sites since I found it and everybody gets a kick out of it and relates it to nutty debates about passive voice back when it was the huge no-no Iin between adverbs and "head-hopping".
Were we having a nutty debate about passive voices? I worry about the audience that found it so hilarious. While I am a fan of slapstick and metaphoric comedy, I found that comic to be too silly to be amusing. Not only that, that little bit was overwritten. Why write in the throat? Wouldn't Alas, I am slain be a POV violation? Why use diction? Wouldn't prose be more fitting? Wouldn't the comic work better if the characters spoke passively? How about...
Character one: Jeepers, Ninja! Why were you stabbing the professor? Character two: None will be questioning my prose! I will be using my voice passively.
quote:This is the only place I've run into opprobrium. And nit-picking.
Who was doing that? Kathleen only pointed out how it wasn't helpful to the discussion forum on writing. If she felt it was out of line she would have deleted it. I think you assume too much, LR. Only one person commented on your cartoon.
quote:Want me to delete it or something?
And miss your extraordinary wit? Not a chance. Unless you mean the cartoon itself. Nah, but you may want to move it out of the humor section of your site.
posted
Careful, Snapper. He's not the quintessential Mexican. People are people: ignorance happens everywhere. We'll just have to wait to see him on the "bestseller lists". We'll know which title to look for: MEXICAN SLANG 101. Posts: 3687 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
I allow passive voice in dialog since people speak in passive voice all the time. In the descriptive narrative, I generally avoid it, unless it just fits. Sometime the narrative has a certain rhythm and while technically, it might be passive, it doesn't seem so awkward.
Posts: 603 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I thought that was illegal in a public place. Aren't there specialist clubs and websites for that sort of thing?
Posts: 2995 | Registered: Oct 2007
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If Linton has an opinion that you disagree with, then disagree with it. He doesn't need to be censored. If you don't wish to be drawn into an emotive discussion then ignore posts that evoke such a response in you. Move onto the next post, to one you feel is less inflammatory, and respond to that.
Fires tend to draw larger crowds the bigger they are--and you can make them bigger by pouring fuel on them. Starve a fire of oxygen and it goes out.
A fact is a fact--the truth regarding a fact can be quickly established. But an opinion is an opinion; it can't be right or wrong. An opinion can't hurt you, unless you let it.
You can only be trolled if you let someone troll you.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited December 07, 2008).]
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited December 07, 2008).]
quote: "Destructive (as in only negative so as to tear down) criticism is not encouraged on the Hatrack River Writers Workshop forum," SHE built up."
Every time you put writers' forums down, Hatrack and some or all of its denizens are implicitly included. It's destrctive, not essential to the point you're trying to make, so why do you do it, if not to bait for your further amusement?
Every time you call someone a school kid, a clown, kibitzer, knucklehead or yclept, you're destructive. The professionals I have worked with know better than to criticize the person, and limit themselves to critiqueing the work itself or discussing the point at hand. They do it with respect and self discipline--can you find those qualities in yourself, Linton?
You complain of the long posts regarding your behaviour and wonder why you attract such stuff. (BTW they're long because it takes time to write something short, time better spent on stories.) If you read them, and--instead of scanning them for the odd phrase to futher attack--thought about what was being said, you might figure it out. (I noticed the apology for hurting people's feelings. It was meaningless in an otherwise negative post which demonstrated neither understanding nor respect.)
If you were a newbie, you might get more tolerance. But you're claiming to be a professional writer, and you've contributed to many writers' groups, so you know full well the power of your words.
Please consider KDW's words and figure out how, with your preeminent wisdom and experience, you can make Hatrack--as it was before you arrived--a place of positive criticism.
@skadder,
Yes, you're right. I can ignore him, and will, until he learns how to behave. But he's contributing to most if not all the threads I'm interested in, and not everyone recognizes a troll when they see one, and they respond, and the place feels negative, threatening, combative--which means I would need to ignore Hatrack. I'd rather not do that. And Hatrack will not achieve its objective of helping writers learn.
Yes, you're right. I can ignore him, and will, until he learns how to behave. But he's contributing to most if not all the threads I'm interested in, and not everyone recognizes a troll when they see one, and they respond, and the place feels negative, threatening, combative--which means I would need to ignore Hatrack. I'd rather not do that. And Hatrack will not achieve its objective of helping writers learn.
It was just a suggestion. If you don't feel able to ignore him, then send in the ninjas.
posted
Yeah ... trouble is, I don't like seeing people misled and put down so it's kinda hard to ignore. I think the quieter ones will quietly withdraw and so I feel bound to say something, because Hatrack has been, still is good for my learning and I'd like others to enjoy it too.
Actually, I'm thinking of running another contest--to see who can win the most inappropriate epithet from our new, um, friend. Currently, it's not me because I do talk crap sometimes; snapper and I have scored a "school kid" each; but I think the leader right now might be IB with yclept (which I had to look up, I'm ashamed to say and I still can't decide if it's an insult) and clown--which he might well be, but not when he's talking about writing.
Pat
[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited December 07, 2008).]
posted
Please, please take it easy. Linton is just trying to force his… offer his own experiences into our humble forums. There is no reason to think he is attempting to piss… provoke anyone here. His humor is a little gruff, sure. He’s probably isolated in the desert down south (just a guess, I really don’t know), and it sounds like he has made a name for himself on a few other writer forums. The award winning Linton has hinted that he usually travels in a more sophisticated crowd than what we have here. The fact that any of us would challenge him probably feels childish to him. Just because I found the dialog in a cartoon about a ninja that slashes the throat of his professor because he dared to challenge his diction absent of amusement, doesn’t mean that it isn’t funny. Humor is subjective and besides, he pointed out to me that it was hilarious. Published professional writers have told him so (as opposed to the published unprofessional ones you’ll find here), and their grownup writers at that. Yes I know Linton comes across like the new kid that tries to force his way into the popular group on the first day of school and gets put off when he gets the cold shoulder. It doesn’t mean that he isn’t cool. I’m sure he’s the most popular guy you’ll find in a five mile radius of his home. So I apologize if I have upset you, Linton. Come on in and we’ll all try again.
*attaches ‘KICK ME’ sign on while giving a friendly tap on back*
posted
Look, I've only belonged to this site officially for a week or so and its become very obvious that there's certainly a way things work around here. Unfortunately the maturation of Internet message boards has only perpetuated cliques and niches. Hey, that's fine, but when some "newbie" inserts themselves into the fray -- attack is too often the norm.
This board certainly needs to loosen up a bit and chill. This is an open section of the forum for debate and discussion about writing, period. I guess with maturity comes the wisdom regarding selective engagement and complete refrain. Opinions are like a-holes -- everyone has one and they all stink. I really don't think Linton's activity here has caused anyone to become any more withdrawn than they would have been prior to his participation.
Live writing groups, at least the ones I have participated in, are usually a little more inclusive (and productive) than what I've found here. Don't kid yourselves there are plenty of Legends in their own minds lurking these boards. Hey that's cool! But then again, whoever said writers (and wannabes) weren't egotistical, intellectual masturbaters (apologies in advance to those that find that too blue)? Honesty and comfort in one's own skin (comes with maturity) is a trait of many writers I have met and known. Too many here are firmly entrenched in the posture of attack (armed with the knowledge of the last writer support book bolstering their remarks) making me question this site's utility with every thread that passes.
I guess writing for deliberate publication and monetary rewards is the "all guiding" principle here. Hey, that's cool. I suppose the legion of books that will be pulped this year is pretty nifty too.
[This message has been edited by dinoroxxx (edited December 07, 2008).]
posted
I'd give it a chuckle but not a guffaw...it's a little wordy...unless the kid on the left is a regular reoccurring character in a regular kind of cartoon strip, I'd drop him and stick just with the ninja standing over the professor...who should be on camera, too.
posted
dinoroxxx, I'm sorry if we appear to be big-egos and on-the-attack, but I think if you read carefully, you'll see that Linton's posts were dismissive and insulting. I only asked him a couple of honest questions and it opened a can of worms. That tends to put people on the defensive.
Oh, and his emails to me tried to inform me that I'm not a writer and he is. And that he is the only one qualified to give advice.
Some of us tried to point out that Orson Scott Card has articles called Uncle Orson's Writing Class (on this very site) that expressly cover Point of View--which this all began over. Most of us here respect OSC, and will take his word over Linton Robinson's (who actually hasn't published anything other than short stories, poems, and a dictionary of Mexican slang). When he dismisses OSC (which he did when I advised him to read Characters and Viewpoint) that's another thing that rubs many of us the wrong way.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited December 07, 2008).]
posted
Dinoroxx- an online writing forum is like an AA meeting; you take what works for you and are free to ignore the rest. Lintonrobinson brought up many good points about relying too heavily on rule/guidelines that many of our members espouse. His problem was with the ignoring part. He chose to attack or belittle those whose opinions he scorned. I have felt similar scorn for some opinions received on this site, but as a member of this online society I refrain from expressing it. Yes we are writers and therefore sometimes egoistical, but don't judge the whole of the membership by the actions of a few.
I was on the verge of responding to the carnage all weekend, but just when my dudgeon would reach an apex, a fellow hatracker would weigh in with an attack that while defensive was indefensible.
Tale Spinner has suggested that LR is/was trolling Hatrack and kindly gave us a wiki link that explained the etymology. I'm sure he is right to a degree; LR's every sentence dripped with double edged sarcasm, but then if he was "Trolling for suckers" he certainly succeeded.
To all- If another LR shows up here please give them the attention they deserve--none.
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