posted
I'm curious now as to how people think about these two concepts.
What constitues a "professional" market? Is 5cents/word+ suffcient, even if its brand new and has no reputation? Or do you feel it needs to be recognized by the SFWA or similar or affiliated with a major publisher to truly be pro?
And
What would you consider a "professional" writer?
Someone who has been paid for stories, period?
Someone who has been paid 5 cents/word or more for at least one story?
Someone who regularly sells stories for professional rates and/or has sold/published a novel or the like?
Someone who actually makes their primary living by writing?
For me, anything that involves being paid for something is technically professional on a base meaning-of-the-word level. However in practial terms its harder, especially the "professional writer" part. I'm interested in the thoughts of others...or maybe even more than the thoughts, the feelings of others about these two ideas.
A professional writer is someone who sells a story for money...but what you are looking for is a label, a pidgeon hole, and those exist only in people's minds not in objective reality...so it will vary according to who you ask.
For me:
A professional writer is only as good as his last sale. If it was to a crap e-zine then he better sell something else quick or his professional status will slink into the shadows with the rising of the new sun. If it was a nobel prize-winning novel then he can safely sit on his laurels for the rest of his life and still call himself a writer (and likely others will).
As for magazines...some are rich and some are poor. Some have big circulations and some have small. If they pay you they are professional no matter how rubbish their final product maybe.
Personally, I want to get published in the rich, pretty mags.
posted
point 1. for me a professional market is I believe 5, .05 cents and above. Sorry I just relized my computer has no cents symbol. I probably knew it before, but seemed odd at this time.
point 2. For me a professional would be someone who sells regularly to "paying" markets set at semi-pro and above.
posted
For me, a professional publishing market is one that screens submissions, passes on the ones that don't merit publication, and publishes the ones that do.
A professional writer, for me, is one who must designate so on a tax return, and accords all the attendant obligations and priviliges thereof. Yes, I make my living in the writing game and must so indicate on my tax return.
posted
I was once a sem-pro guitarist, which in the music world means you get paid to play, but not enough to abandon the day job. A professional musician gets paid enough to pay the bills, and can sustain it year on year. I think of pro and semi-pro writers the same way.
Also, I think semi-pro and professional writers have a writing process, or method. They know what they're doing and can be relied upon, by editors, to deliver stories of consistent quality and to work with editors through the revision process without being more of a pain than the story demands.
I would have said a pro market is recognized as such by SFWA, until someone told me here recently that they don't recognize Interzone. So for me a pro market is one that pays money for stories and does it year on year, sustainably; and, as extrinsic says, delivers stories of consistent quality.
posted
I think SFWA doesn't "recognize" INTERZONE because "recognize" means "qualify for SFWA active membership," and for that, you have to be published in the US. Since INTERZONE is a British publication, it can't count towards SFWA active membership.
But I don't think that means SFWA members don't consider INTERZONE to be professional. It's pretty prestigious, as far as I can tell.
posted
I believe Interzone is disqualified not because it's not published in the US (the SFWA doesn't list this as a requirement and used to accept both Postscripts and Interzone as pro markets) but because the exchange rate means it doesn't consistently pay 5c/word. The rate is 3p/word, I think, but that ranges from just under 4c/word to 6c/word. But I do think it's rather silly, since everyone considers Interzone a pro market, which makes the SFWA standard a rather arbitrary one.
I consider 5c/word markets to be pro, but add a few exceptions. For example, The London Magazine, which used to pay pro rates and was, I think, established by T.S. Eliot, now no longer pays as it lost its UK Arts Council funding. It's still extremely prestigious here in the UK. Similarly, Ambit no longer pays but had JG Ballard as its fiction editor for a while, and I'd consider that pro. Others are Interzone and Weird Tales (WT only pays 3c/word).
But the technical definition of a pro writer is someone whose main job is writing, however you choose to define that.
posted
I'd like to disagree just a bit with TaleSpinner's use of pro and semi-pro. I think if you get paid to write, then you're a pro. Doesn't matter if you have two jobs or not. A lot of writers have two jobs, sometimes three. I understand the distinction that TaleSpinner makes, but I think it's a distinction that doesn't have to be made.
And I would also add to the definition of a professional is one that turns out "pro writing" on a consistent basis. Meaning, deadlines are met, and the writer treats the writing as a true job; not just writing while in the mood, or when the muse beckons.
Harry Crews said he sat in front of his typewriter for three hours every day, whether he could put anything down or not. It was his job to sit in front of that typewriter and try to write.
quote:Harry Crews said he sat in front of his typewriter for three hours every day, whether he could put anything down or not. It was his job to sit in front of that typewriter and try to write.
Good strategy...wouldn't work now, though. My 'typewriter' plays movies, allows me surf the information super-highway, shop, etc. I can sit and do sit at it for hours and don't type--it's no hardship.
posted
In a technical sense, any paying market is professional, and any writer who receives payment is a professional writer.
In the sf/fantasy writing world, however, when people talk about "pro markets", they almost always mean those recognized by SFWA (or some nearly equivalent criteria). It's a combination of pay rate, readership, and stability.
I would feel a little uncomfortable describing myself as a "professional writer" on the basis of one or two sales. To me, the term implies an ongoing source of income.
[This message has been edited by Starweaver (edited March 12, 2009).]
posted
Within writing circles, you can call yourself a professional writer whenever you like, though most people would expect ou to have a pro sale to your name (which means pro rates only, not SFWA's extra criteria about the longevity of the market).
However, if you call yourself a professional writer to anyone who is NOT a writer, they will assume that you mean you make your living from writing, and when they find out you have published a couple of short stories in a couple of magazines they have never heard of, they will laugh at you.
So long as you understand that, call yourself a professional writer if you wish. Ther is no objective external measure for the term.
posted
Oh, and regarding Interzone - I am not sure of their precise pay rates now, I believe they are good butnot necessarily pro level. They lost Arts Council funding a while back and had to drop pay rates to an affordable/sustainable level. That's when they lost SFWA pro status. However, they remain a prestigious market, which is not always quite the same thing (Lady Churchill's Rosebud Wristlet is, for example, regarded as a prestigious market, even though IIRC it's non-paying).
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posted
Is being a professional solely all about the benjamins? What place does ethical, courteous, conscientious, and business-like mannerisms play in the marketplace?
Incompetents, shirkers, malingerers, skylarkers, posers, scammers, and frauds, browbeaters, and boorish, churlish louts present themselves as professionals in every walk of life.
posted
My face to face crit group includes 5 published novelists. Do any of them have day-jobs? Yes, they all do. Do I consider them professional? Yes. Can they rest on their laurels? No. Not if they want to continue to be writers and pros.
I won't enter the argument over pro and non-pro markets because I have not yet reached that stage. I may argue the unfairness of SFWA requirements when I publish in a snubbed magazine.
I will be content to call myself a writer and worry about professional status later.
posted
pro-fes-sion-al, a. Pertaining to a profession; engaged in a profession, esp. law, medicine, or the ministry.---n. A member of any profession, but more often applied, in opposition to amateur, to persons who make their living by arts and sports in which others engage as a pastime.
---from New Webster'a Dictionary, the edition I bought about thirty years ago, leaving out pronunciation and derivation.
posted
Beneath Ceaseless Skies is another venue I would call pro, though it is not SFWA-listed. In that case I think it's because it's so new, it has to have been released for a year I think for SFWA to list it. But they pay pro rates and have stories from very well-known authors.
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posted
And if it lasts a year (which I very very much hope it does - it's a wonderful product and I'm not just saying that because I sold a story there!), BCS will doubtless receive SFWA's pro-status "seal of approval".
The "been publishing for a year" criterion is set by SFWA for a reason. It's easy for someone to set up a magazine, pay (or even claim to pay) pro rates, publish one issue that happens to consist entirely of stories by the editor, the editor's pseudonyms, and the editor''s friends, and then for that magazine to vanish again.
Would that be professional? I think not.
SFWA have to apply some criteria and I for one am pefectly content with the criteria they have, even though it means I'm not SFWA-qualified yet and probably won't be for at least another six months, maybe a year (I have a story to be published in BCS and another that is due out in an anthology early next year, although there is some question as to whether my IGMS sale and the IGMS anthology actually count as two pro sales for SFWA membership purposes - I'm not convinced they do but some people suggest they might. I'm not going to push it).
quote:Is being a professional solely all about the benjamins? What place does ethical, courteous, conscientious, and business-like mannerisms play in the marketplace? Incompetents, shirkers, malingerers, skylarkers, posers, scammers, and frauds, browbeaters, and boorish, churlish louts present themselves as professionals in every walk of life.
That's a different meaning of the term, and applies to behaviour. We talk of people behaving in a "professional manner" or even being a "true professional". But that's not the sort of thing someone can claim for themselves - it's a judgement made by others. Being a professional in the sense of having a profession IS something one can claim to be - but would sill be subject to the judgement of others (I don't call myself a writer, socially, just as I don't call myself a photographer even though I take hundreds of photographs, don't call myself an electrician though I can wire a plug, etc etc).
posted
I don't acknowledge a distinction. In return for compensation a tacit social or explicit contract expects professional behavior. How many writers have been blackballed for bad mouthing publishers? From grapevine scuttlebut, I've heard tell of a few recently. A big part of becoming and staying professional is being professional.
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quote: Is being a professional solely all about the benjamins? What place does ethical, courteous, conscientious, and business-like mannerisms play in the marketplace?
("Benjamins" are bucks, right?)
This is why I find a distiction between pro and semi-pro helpful.
The semi-pro has gotten paid, once or a few times, but not much and with little confidence in continuing, sizeable income. Getting published is something of a matter of luck, more so than through established relationships with audiences, publishers and editors -- a "name".
The pro, earning enough to live off full-time writing (and writing-related activities), has larger paying audiences, because she has mastered, not only story-telling, but reliable process disciplines of writing consistently, understanding markets, and dealing with editors, publishers, agents and paying readers with the respect, courtesy, ethics and conscientiousness that keeps bringing them back to her for more.
So, while I'm interested in everyone's experiences, since pros have demonstrated consistency of skill in all the requisite disciplines, I'm inclined to give extra weight to guidance from the Kathleens, OSCs and Haldemans than the ... well, you get the idea.
Similarly, I'll approach a semi-pro market with a little more caution in terms of contractual issues than a pro market, because the pro market is more likely to have dependable discplines in place. (That said, I can think of several semi-pro markets which appear to have professional disciplines in place ... maybe there are pro, quasi-pro and semi-pro markets ...)
(And, my secret reason for finding the distinction between pro and semi-pro useful is that my ultimate aspiration is to be a pro writer.) [This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited March 12, 2009).]
[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited March 12, 2009).]
Yeah, benjamin is a slang term for the US $100 bill. Greenbacks or washingtons, jeffersons, lincolns, hamiltons, jacksons, grants, benjamins, mckinleys, clevelands, madisons, chases, and wilsons. $1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 500, 1,000, 5,000, 10,000, and 100,000. Large denomination bills, larger than benjamins, were last printed in 1945 and circulation discontinued in 1969 to curb organized crime. I sure could do with a handful or two of wilsons right about now.
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posted
I define "professional writer" the way Tale Spinner does.
Pro = someone who makes a living writing. They don't have to be a professional novelist to fit into this category. One of my in-person writer group friends is a pro writer who makes his living writing ad copy, and writes novels on the side that have yet to be published. But he's a solid writer, and he has a great perspective on writing as craft and business, so he's a great resource.
There are plenty of other pro writers who don't write fiction at all.
And then there are a lucky few pro writers who write fiction. I hope to join that category some day (or reach the place where the "makes a living" is enough to justify to the DH why I shouldn't have to take on independent consulting projects anymore. But then that would decrease my "observe human behavior" opportunities at work which would impact my writing which...hmmm. Conundrum.)
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I hope to join that category some day (or reach the place where the "makes a living" is enough to justify to the DH why I shouldn't have to take on independent consulting projects anymore. But then that would decrease my "observe human behavior" opportunities at work which would impact my writing which...hmmm. Conundrum.)
