posted
For me, a chief attraction the fantasy genre is what Tolkien called "subcreation" - an author's secondary world or created milieu. It doesn't have to classic high fantasy, but I like the idea of an alternate reality built around different premises than our own. This is also the kind of fantasy I want to write.
But as I look around, it seems that (for short fiction, at least) this is not the type of fantasy that is most popular today. When I dip into a fantasy story in F&SF, RoF, or online mags like Fantasy and Clarkesworld, I'm more likely than not to find myself in contemporary fantasy, magic realism, or perhaps something that's just randomly bizarre.
All those markets do publish some invented-world fantasy as well, and IGMS can usually be counted on for several stories of that type each issue.
If you agree that this is the case, do you think it reflects a trend, or have things always been that way? If a trend, what might the reasons be? That high fantasy and related subgenres have been done to death? That contemporary fantasy speaks to a more postmodern sensibility? That short fiction isn't really suited to world-building?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Tom
[This message has been edited by Starweaver (edited April 16, 2009).]
posted
I'v gotta say that F & SF tends, and always has tended, towards the more literary kind of fantasy and science fiction and would likely scorn something on the order of, say, Harry Potter.
Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
As far as trends go, I suspect that fantastical genres are languishing in a limbo of uncertainty due to the overwhelming success of the Potter phenomena. Unlike past eras of spawning new inspiration and writers building upon each other, this era seems to be wandering about seeking a center that's not yet presenting.
The tumults of the times is another area where past trends might demonstrate near future trends. In good times, stories generally turn inward to influxing pessimistic outlooks. In tough times, they turn outward to effluxing optimistic outlooks. The lag time appears to be a few years, probably partly as a result of the time it takes to get through the publication pipeline.
In the past, fantastical genres have largely been immune to the turn of outlooks, but lately, they've trended toward mainstream genre directions. Reading the Nebula and Hugo nominees, pessimism seems to predominate as seems to be the case in the mainstream.
posted
I think it is a trend. I think it has to do with many things. Oversaturation, although I think in large part from movies. with the LOTR, Narnia and Harry Potter movies all more or less concurently going on the general public is getting exposed to a lot more high-fantasy sort of stuff than ever before really.
I also think Extrinsic is right about the literary elements. There seems to be a trend toward trying to make genre fiction more literary, and many seem to think thats mutually exclusive with the high fantasy sub genre (although there are exceptions like Beneath Ceasless Skies for example.)
I have and do write all forms of fantasy but I have found there seems to be little interest in created-world high fantasy. Theres some markets still for pulp-style sword and sorcery, and hopefully that will lead to more options for other types as well but who knows..
posted
It might simply be a function of length. In shorter works it is probably more difficult to include a highly developed fantasy milieu in a story that meets the ubiquitous "character-driven" story requirement.
There still seems to be a strong contingent of novels with fantasy milieus being published.
quote:It might simply be a function of length. In shorter works it is probably more difficult to include a highly developed fantasy milieu in a story that meets the ubiquitous "character-driven" story requirement.
Well, "character driven" is a subjective concept, and a bit of a "trend" as well. You can do both at once, setting and character. Of course you're right that overall high fantasy isn't really thought of in connection to short stories, but it can be and is done. Again Beneath Ceasless Skies is a good example. Often times the setting can be used as the thing that then motivates the characters etc.
Honestly, I detect somewhat of a trend in short fiction right now away from anything even recognizable. As the original poster notes, a lot of what gets published right now is often rather nebulous without clearly defined plot of resolution, whereas those things are generally staples of high fantasy.
quote: I'm more likely than not to find myself in contemporary fantasy, magic realism, or perhaps something that's just randomly bizarre.
I've been struggling with this very thing myself. Especially with Fantasy Magazine, which I had really high hopes for when I first discovered it. Many times the stories are too bizarre for me and I really can't find a connection as a reader, so while I keep returning each week, I rarely read the new postings fully.
As a reader, and a writer, I much prefer a created world and it saddens me that I just don't see that often these days. I agree with Merlion that Beneath Ceaseless Skies offers more of this genre than most, but I can't help but wish there were more markets out there.
posted
I'm currently reading (studying) Percy Lubbock's 1921 The Craft of Fiction. As a part of it, Lubbock critically analyzes Gustave Flaubert's Madame Bovary. Lubbock offers several insightful comments about settings, milieus even, and how they influence drama in that portion.
Emma Bovary "by herself is not the subject of his book. What he [Flaubert] proposes to exhibit is the history of a woman like her in just such a world as hers, a foolish woman in narrow circumstances; so that the provincial scene, acting upon her, making her what she becomes, is as essential as she is herself. Not a portrait, therefore, not a study of character for its own sake, but something in the nature of a drama, where the two chief players are a woman on one side and her whole environment on the other--that is Madame Bovary. There is a conflict, a trial of strength, and a doubtful issue. Emma is not much of a force, no doubt; her impulses are wild, her emotions are thin and poor, she has no power of passion with which to fight the world. All she has is her romantic dream and her plain, primitive appetite; but these can be effective arms, after all, and she may yet succeed in getting her way and making her own terms. On the other hand the limitations of her life are very blank and uncompromising indeed; they close all round her, hampering her flights, restricting her opportunities. The drama is set, at any rate, whatever may come of it; Emma marries her husband, is established at Yonville and faced with the poverty of her situation. Something will result, the issue will announce itself. It is the mark of a dramatic case that it contains an opposition of some kind, a pair of wills that collide, an action that pulls in two directions."
And that to my mind is one way how fantasy benefits from fantastical mileus, mundane or otherwise, in short or long fiction, by posing problems to a character.
posted
I think the difficulty with secondary world is that a lot of them fall so easily into one type of setting: medieval with taverns, castles, and kings. There are so many other-world fantasies that I pick up that have some variation on this plot: John/Jane is the long lost heir to Alpha Kingdom and must regain his/her destiny, battling wizards/dragons/evil elves, and overcome a prophecy.
But to argue the other side, urban fantasy is becoming just as stratified, with this plot the most predominant: Jane is a witch/vampire/werewolf/hybrid who must defeat evil humans/witches/werewolves/vampires/zombies, all the while getting together with the handsome hero, and wear ridiculously high-heeled shoes and lots of leather. (as a side note, I've noticed quite a few agents who represent only that particular type of fantasy)
Still, I don't think it's fair to refer to either genre as a whole as 'trendy,' because I can't help but see that as being dismissive of the genre as a whole.
(Even if you haven't read my stories, you've probably figured out by this point that I am generally a writer of urban fantasy. I personally love the intersection between magic and reality)
For short fiction, I've seen secondary setting fantasy done very well in short stories. And I would state that perhaps there aren't a lot of other-world fiction out because a lot of people are writing great urban fantasy. So unless the guidelines clearly state that they want urban fantasy, I would send in your other-world fantasy. Perhaps they've been waiting until they get an awesome, unique story like that. Such is often the case; you publish the best of what you get, no matter the genre.
[This message has been edited by BoredCrow (edited April 16, 2009).]
I have seen some very good and interesting secondary world fantasy around (mostly through reading the sadly defunct YBFH), but I tend to agree with BoredCrow in that a lot of secondary world fantasy is very heavily stratified. Even within the stratified worlds of elves, etc. though I've seen some interesting work. I think it's easier to find a fresh angle in urban fantasy, but there's cliches and unoriginality in every type of genre, from high fantasy to literary fiction.
quote:John is a witch/vampire/werewolf/hybrid who must defeat evil humans/witches/werewolves/vampires/zombies, all the while getting together with the handsome hero, and wear ridiculously high-heeled shoes and lots of leather.
I'd read this version. The one with Jane, not so much.
posted
So I've seen a lot of interesting things on this subject about Fantasy but what about Sci-fi. I guess I'm just interested to hear what the knwledgeable people know about that.
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posted
I think for both genres in short forms the principal block is difficulty due to the onerous burden of world-building. It is both difficult to write and present a wholly unique/foreign milieu, and due to the consequent limited representation of such works in the market it is difficult to sell these to readers trained to expect the same familiar settings.
Consider that readers often look to identify with a character to take them through a story; a very foreign world may imply a very foreign character, making it too difficult to identify with. End result is story fails to engage and doesn't get published.
My opinion then is not that you won't see such works published. Rather, they will be rare; due to both the difficulty in crafting them and the tendency of the market to want familiarity when dealing with a story's dilemma. So these will be under-represented, especially in short forms where there is insufficient space to world-build and still provide an engaging story.
posted
"It is the mark of a dramatic case that it contains an opposition of some kind, a pair of wills that collide, an action that pulls in two directions." From Lubbock, also above.
The kind of opposition conventional to science fiction is one derived from science, technology, and/or societal imaginative premises. As some say, gadgetry instead of fantasy's milieu.
posted
Second-world/subcreative fantasy can be found; try Beneath Ceaseless Skies (two good-sized stories every fortnight, online), or Black Gate (a whopping 200+ pages of fantasy). I agree that, predominantly, F&SF, Fantasy, RoF, Clarkesword etc are less interested in that area of fantasy. I suspect there are various reasons for this - partly editorial preference, partly they probably just see tons and tons of painful, generic fantasy stories that make the whole concept put their teeth on edge and don't tempt them to winnow out the good stuff. But short stories ARE a different market from novels, and the two main areas of fantasy novels (identified above; sprawling second-world fantasy sagas, and "urban" post-Buffy series) are both poorly represented in the short story market - perhaps precisely because the readers of this kind of material are looking for constant/repeated immersion in the "worlds" they get to visit. Immersion IS harder in short stories, which tend to rely more on specific ideas, or even manipulation of language, for their "fantastical" effects. Rich world-building in 5000 words is tough (but it can be done - check out Darja Malcolm-Clarke's "The Beacon", in Clarkesworld, for how much of a world you CAN create in a short story).
posted
A new publication that says it will lean toward traditional sword and sorcery is Heroic Fantasy Quarterly.
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posted
Thanks for the pointers to Heroic Fantasy Quarterly and Black Gate.
I've been reading Farah Mendelsohn's _Rhetorics of Fantasy_ and finding it quite interesting. It nicely separates issues of subject matter and setting from authorial stance and reader expectation. In Mendelsohn's terminology, the essential element of an immersive fantasy is that the characters take the milieu for granted and may even struggle to redefine some aspects of it.
In this conception, 90% of science fiction can be regarded as immersive fantasy. So I resist the notion that this is a difficult or rare authorial stance in short fiction. I tend to think that it is the particulars of the settings that editors find problematic. Anything remotely medieval bears an instant stamp of cliche and must work hard to prove itself original. It's much easier to regard a contemporary or urban fantasy as "original"--even though I find many of these stories have not much new to say. Even setting aside the ubiquitous urban vampire fantasies, there seems to be a plethora of variations on what I call "Wacky Wednesday" fantasy. You know, I woke up this morning and my lipstick was a cat. Those kind of things. (Intrusion fantasies in Mendelsohn's terminology.)
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