posted
I'm not going to make like the Feedback Police and claim that critiques should ALWAYS include a rewrite or that rewriting is the ONLY truly authentic form of feedback. But when someone offers me a rewrite, the light comes on.
The light comes on with other types of feedback too. Labels are effective. When Meredith labeled one of my intros as a summary and a report, I realized my earlier work suffered severely from nonfiction syndrome. No rewrite, no analysis. Just two bits of vocabulary and the light came on.
Well, half of the light. I recognized the problem, I still didn't have the solution. It wasn't until I read her awesome rewrite that I finally said, "Yeah, THAT'S what I should have said!"
In literature classes, they assign the classics, not the duds. In creative writing classes, they don't just give you a turkey list handout, they offer examples of how to rewrite your homework.
But seriously, this is a writing workshop. As with other crafts, people need to why, but ultimately, they need to know how. The best way to show a writer how to write is to show them how to write.
Seriously, I've seen people, myself included, spend hundreds of words ranting in response to someone else's rant. For all the time and energy, they could have rewritten 20 intros.
I offer plenty of rewrite examples, but I suspect I don't offer enough rewrite examples.
posted
adamatom, if the way feedback is handled in this workshop does not suit your ideas of how feedback should be handled in a writing workshop, you are welcome to go start your own writing workshop somewhere else.
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
You have the wrong idea of how things work here. The feedback is for YOU to learn, not for others to do the work for you. There is no way to show somebody how to write, it's something you learn on your own through hard work. Just like playing football or learning guitar. A coach can give you pointers and tips, but the only way you can learn to do it is get out there and actually do it. With hard work and lots of butt in chair time.
I haven't participated on this board for a few years, but my recollection is that people offer honest feedback and it's your job to fix the fiction. The people reading are donating their time to you. They owe you nothing.
Bear in mind also that at least a dozen writers of the future winners, at least twice that many SFWA members, and one Campbell Award for Best New Writer all cut their teeth here. If you want things done your way, show us the track record first. The way things are done here is already proven.
posted
"If the way feedback is handled in this workshop does not suit your ideas of how feedback should be handled in a writing workshop, you are welcome to go start your own writing workshop somewhere else."
You're out of control.
My perspective is that rewrites are the most valuable form of feedback. My opinion is that rewrites are the ideal way of offering feedback. If you don't want me sharing my perspective, offering my opinion, providing examples, and inviting other writers to discuss major topics that affect all writers, unplug me.
posted
I'm sorry but I think maybe you're out of control. And if i'm saying that, here, in these circumstances something is off.
Is this place perfect? Hardly. Is their way too much narrowmindness and a good deal of hypocrisy? Yep. Is KDW perfect in her judgements and approach? No, we're all flawed.
But it really seems to me like your rapidly metamorphosing into the things you claim to opose to a very strong degree. I'm all for shaking things up around here, but theres a way to go about it, ways that may actually be helpful, and ways that are just going to rub people so far the wrong way they dismiss you entirely.
posted
I personally don't like to offer rewrites in critiques. Not only do I feel like I'm doing a writer's work for him, but I also think he would have every right to be offended if I came along and said 'here's what you meant to say'. He's the writer, I'm the reader. I wish only for my critique to help him understand how a member of his audience perceived his work.
But then, learning from such a critique takes self reflection - the ability to ask one's self 'why am I getting this sort of feedback?' and to act on it. I am developing the opinion that this is not an ability that everyone possesses. In your introduction post you said
quote:Harsh and negative comments about my stories don't bother me. My policy is: Cut me open and leave me bleeding, I'd rather wallow in blood than wallow in ignorance.
and yet, while I see in contrast only the most helpful advice being offered, all I'm seeing in response is vindictive argument. So maybe what Kathleen is suggesting is if you prefer only a harsh and negative dialogue on your writing, this isn't the forum for you?
I hope not, of course, and I'd like to think we can all get along. But then again, I live in the real world too.
posted
Put simply, Kathleen is the power around here. Arguing with her is not only fruitless and disrespectful, it will only last so long as she graciously suffers it.
On topic:
I have given my version of what I think an author is attempting. Sometimes it's right; sometimes it's wrong, but hopefully they see where my misunderstandings are. On the other hand, not everyone will take that kind of criticism well.
The title of this discussion "Feedback Police" is meant to be insulting, and there will be some who it succeeds with, but, many of us have lived through tantrums before, and come out the other side stronger and grown-up enough to ignore simple provocation. I sincerely hope my fellow Hatrackers are more of the latter persuasion.
If you are not, I suggest you consider how you word things. Most of your posts seem purposely antagonistic.
If you are serious about writing, we don't want to chase you away. It is good to have people with different perspectives. Merlion frequently disagrees with "the style police" but he does so logically and respectively which makes him a valuable member of this community.
If you want me to rewrite one of your posts to show you how to present your ideas without being insulting, I'd be happy to help .
posted
Billy was brilliant--the apple of his father's eye. If I could just get him to settle down and learn how to bait a hook, I could teach him how to catch fish. "You know, dad, if you arched your arms up about twenty degrees as you paddle you could traverse the lake at a rate of about ten meters per minute faster." he stood up and extended his hand over his encisioned arch." Like here. The boat rocked and Billy knees swayed. "Sit down, Boy. You are rocking the boat." Just then, Billy's father's fishing pole got a bit...a big one. His father reached for it swiftly as it almost bent in half. The boat swayed and Billy fell headlong into the water.
Posts: 1888 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
OK, if everyone is finished making accusations, I'd love see your views and examples on critiquing tools. What works for you and what doesn't work for you and why.
Posts: 135 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
The most important thing that I have found is that no matter what critique you recieve, you must carefully filter it out. There is wise, almost sagely advice. There is horrible advice, there is worthless, insignificant advice. But everything here; anything you will recieve are simply the opinions of a group of ametuer or near ametuer writers. Many have studied the rules and understand them so they can submit work without the handicap of having written something cliche or on the big list of things not to do. Many publishers have lists of "WHat we don't want" "things we see too often" And then of course there are the large publishing information lists like the "Turkey City Lexicon" and others.
My only advice is to use your instinct and do your own research. If you feel good about the story then you can polish it into something you are proud of.
I am not trying to attack you. I realize my little metaphor was rude and I apologize. I just want to convey to you that any sort of rebuttle, good or bad, on comments given often comes across as annoying. Most of us are busy and we take time to offer our opinions even on things which we do not particularly care for, in attempt to help each other out. I typically do not remark at all on comments offered to me until I give my thank you after recieving enough to make my decision. That is unlsess there is a big problem and I ask another question about a comment to clarify, or if I do a rewrite and I often ask "ok, Skadder, does this remedy the problem"
I just wanted to be helpful to you becauswe are all in the same boat. I have never had any issues with you. In fact, you have been nothing but helpful to me. I just wanted to offer you my wisdom of a long time of observation that you will get more out of the members here if you don't start upo arguments, even non-combative ones in each thread. The primary reason is that once you are percieved as a rabble-rouser, you won't get as much feedback. Folks will simply skip your threads. I have seen it on several occasions.
But I would be glad to help you anytime I can, and I don't want to see you burned at the cross here because I feel that you are a little missunderstood, but most people here don't have the time to deliberate on comments they make. I often don't even return to threads I have posted on for several days Especially in F&F
But as I mentioned there are all types of critiques and as much as we can try to deny alot of it can be helpful. I tend to find that comments which generate the same response from most of the posters typically warrant a thourough review, but there is also the risk of people comming along and simply "agreeing" with the poster above them. I tend to not read the comments until I have made mine. That serve to keep it honest.
Comments on general appeal are often important. If it "just doesn't work" for more than two readers, I usuallly take it back to the drawing board. Cliches are very important to avoid because if you are unpublished or minorly published(LikeMe) there is absolutely no reason to risk it. Id wager you have a 90% chance of getting shot down. Published authors can sometimes get away with it. I have seen "Waking" Intros in Asimov's but they were by writersw who had been published there and other places many times before. Believe me I have read hundreds of novels, over seven hundred shorts, every writing book worth its salt, as well as countless hours of research. I even compiled stats on narratives of published short stories, Hugo and Nebula winners (Ei. percentage of Hugo winners written in the first person narrative)(Percentage of WOTF winners that followed a traditional plot skeleton etc...)
Not to say that my advice is more valuable than anyone else here. It is not, But I have learned to rely on my own evaluation of my work, other's comments, advice in general.
As I said before, I apologize to you for being jerky. I had no reason. I just want to see you do well and not become jaded here. It will result in a detriment to the advice and comments you recieve here. I wish you the best and I will continue to offer you any help I am able.
posted
All kinds of feedback are helpful. Some, of course, more than others. And all of us learn differently. If you feel you get the most from rewrites, you can always request that in your thread. Those who have the time and inclination will offer one.
But none of us offer rewrites all the time. It's time consuming. Sometimes we may not clearly see the way the piece should be redone. Remember, we're only seeing a fragment, not the whole story. The opening has to fit with the rest of the story. Sometimes it may feel over confident to offer a rewrite of someone else's work.
As OSC wrote about the Wise Reader in HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY, the hard part is to remember that the reader is never wrong. Even when you think they are. They're reporting their experience of reading what you wrote. They can't be wrong about their own experience. Doesn't mean you always have to agree with them, of course.
Edited to correct early morning grammar issue.
[This message has been edited by Meredith (edited November 25, 2009).]
quote:What works for you and what doesn't work for you and why.
Everything is helpful in one way or another.
Having five hatrackers respond to a 1st-13 with "I don't get it" is just as helpful as one hatracker giving me a 3 paragraph analysis.
What I care about the most is first-slice opinion; did you understand it and would you read on?
I don't really want anyone to go too in-depth in responding to a 1st-13 because I don't like asking someone to take that much time into a story that I may simply abandon. However if someone agrees to read the entire story I greatly appreciate detailed comments.
posted
It doesn't matter what works for me, Adamatom. What matters is what works for you. And it seems like what works for you is to ask other people to write for you.
But why would I rewrite your work. Then it's MY work. Why would I give you something for free?
And, if you use Meredith's verbatim rewrite and call it YOURS, without including her somewhere in the byline, then you're plagiarizing.
I'm glad that you like rewrites. Good for you. But the biggest problem I've seen is that you seem to be bound and determined to be right. That isn't what this site is about. This site is for people who understand that they can always be better, and are then willing to work to make themselves so.
Now, how about you learn some manners, or follow the suggestion of our dear KDW and find yourself another site.
posted
From Percy Lubbocks' A Book of English Prose Part II, Arranged for Secondary and High Schools, 1913, excerpt from Jonathan Swift's "The Art of Conversation" orginally in Polite Conversation, 1738.
quote:I know a man of wit, who is never easy but where he can be allowed to dictate and preside: he neither expecteth to be informed or entertained, but to display his own talents. His business is to be good company, and not good conversation; and, therefore, he chooseth to frequent those who are content to listen, and profess themselves his admirers. And, indeed, the worst conversation I ever remember to have heard in my life was that at Will's coffeehouse, where the wits (as they were called) used formerly to assemble; that is to say, five or six men, who had writ lays, or at least prologues, or had share in a miscellany, came thither, and entertained one another with their trifling composures, in so important an air, as if they had been the noblest efforts of human nature, or that the fate of kingdoms depended on them; and they were usually attended with an humble audience of young students from the inns of court, or the universities, who, at due distance, listened to these oracles, and returned home with great contempt for their law and philosophy, their heads filled with trash, under the name of politeness, criticism and _belles lettres_.
posted
What has worked/works for me is first having taken a couple years to learn the basics of writing craft, then learning to put my ego aside and listen with humility when people offer their opinion on what I write. I never argue because in my role as a story teller, the audience cannot be wrong.
The most important aspect of feedback is finding places where readers lose interest--lose an emotional connection to the story. At that point the story has failed, irrespective of my "artistic vision", and I will try to fix it. Nine times out of ten it comes down to going back to those "rules" some love to bristle against, which I spent a couple of years becoming facile with.
There are several books out there that can illustrate the mechanics of something well written versus something poorly written. However, they are steeped in the "rules". I would suggest being grateful for anyone who will take some time to offer an opinion, no matter the form of the opinion, and not demand they do something a certain way.
quote:And it seems like what works for you is to ask other people to write for you.
I don't think this is what Adamatom means. If he wanted someone to write his story for him, he could find or hire a ghost writer.
I think sometimes it is hard to know what the problem is with a passage even after someone points the problem out to you. When you learning math, the teacher does a lot of example problems to help solidify a concept. This can be great method to teach someone to write as well.
I think this is what Adamatom is talking about (but please correct me if I am wrong). When someone rewrites a sentence or two to illustrate how to fix the problem, I can see that being very enlightening. Conversely, they can make up an example of their own which would be equally helpful. I would never use their rewritten sentence. I would write my own for no other reason than wanting all the lines of my story to be true to my voice although there could be plagerism issues there too.
That being said. Beta readers aren't teachers, and you should be grateful for any input they are willing to give.
[This message has been edited by MAP (edited November 25, 2009).]
posted
I think I know where Adamatom is coming from. I remember just starting here and my writing was crap plus I wasn't that familiar with all the lingo. Then IB rewrote one of my first thirteens and it helped a lot with understanding. Now as I understand more and someone says infodump I get it immediately and I probably wouldn't want someone to rewrite it for me.
That being said I find every critiquing style helpful and found that each type increased my understanding of the writing art. I would love it if I could understand everyone's way of looking at writing and learn every style, every method. Then I would have a vast arsenal of tools to write any kind of story that popped in my head.
posted
My feedback. As always, take what works, feel free to leave the rest.
quote:I'm not going to make like the Feedback Police and claim that critiques should ALWAYS include a rewrite or that rewriting is the ONLY truly authentic form of feedback. But when someone offers me a rewrite, the light comes on.
The way this passage is written you come off rather pushy. Suggest a change in tone: I've noticed that some critiquers don't offer a rewrite or example of a point when they offer critiques. I'd like to request or suggest that more critiquers think about offering those rewrites to illustrate key points, as I have found it invaluable in understanding where I went astray or how I might be able to improve a passage. I'd be eternally grateful for anyone offering critique on my work to include rewrites, though I recognize that not everyone may feel the same.
quote:But seriously, this is a writing workshop. As with other crafts, people need to why, but ultimately, they need to know how. The best way to show a writer how to write is to show them how to write.
Flawed logic, representing your personal point of view only. Doesn't demonstrate awareness of the many points of view out there. Suggest rewording: I have found rewrites to be very helpful to me.
quote:Seriously, I've seen people, myself included, spend hundreds of words ranting in response to someone else's rant. For all the time and energy, they could have rewritten 20 intros.
Suggest rewording to reduce combative tone. For those of you who may not be thinking of it, your energies diverted to offering critiques and possible rewrites would be appreciated by me, and I believe would offer value to other writers.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
.
