Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » Magic and technology living together

   
Author Topic: Magic and technology living together
genevive42
Member
Member # 8714

 - posted      Profile for genevive42   Email genevive42         Edit/Delete Post 
I am asking this for a project, possibly a rewrite of my first novel in a different time frame. Or I might just use the characters and start anew.

There is a society that is accustomed to magic but not everybody can use it. So the people without magic develop their own technology. Some of their tech relies on magic, some does not. The question:

How would technology develop differently if magic were present in the world?

Right now general terms are fine. I haven't defined all of the parameters for the magic as this is in its very early stages. I am thinking of something like an old west setting. Do guns change when mages have shield spells? Do the mages find different ways to use magic to defend against the tech?

I am thinking there may have been a period of time when those with and without magic were feuding and neither side would help the other. I believe this would result in a growth of tech.

Do you know of any books that approach a magic/tech world like this?

As always, I appreciate your thoughts and insights.


Posts: 1993 | Registered: Jul 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kitti
Member
Member # 7277

 - posted      Profile for Kitti   Email Kitti         Edit/Delete Post 
Off the top of my head, what I think of is the old computer game Arcanum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura

One of the cool (though not necessarily unique) ideas in this game was that magic and technology would exist side-by-side, but in eternal conflict with each other. I.e. a mage literally could not use advanced technological items because the mage would cause the items (like guns) to break/malfunction. V.v. tech people couldn't use magic items/spells/etc because their orientation interfered too much.


Posts: 715 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
Administrator
Member # 59

 - posted      Profile for Kathleen Dalton Woodbury   Email Kathleen Dalton Woodbury         Edit/Delete Post 
It might help to think of magic as having its own kind of technology, which a lot of magic in a lot of fantasy tends to have, with rules about what can and cannot be done and when and by whom, and so on.

Or it can be a matter of personality or genetic abilities--just as some people are computer whizzes, and some have green thumbs, and some have organizational skills, and some can sell anything to anyone, being able to use magic can be a "knack" or talent.


Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ScardeyDog
Member
Member # 8707

 - posted      Profile for ScardeyDog   Email ScardeyDog         Edit/Delete Post 
The first thing that comes to mind is Dune. The aristos learned to fight with knives slowly because their shields would stop anything moving faster than a certain speed.

You could have mage shields that stop high-velocity projectiles, so the teckies develop a gun that shoots force that crushes them instead.

Or you could have force shields that stop mage blasts?


Posts: 238 | Registered: Jul 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rstegman
Member
Member # 3233

 - posted      Profile for rstegman   Email rstegman         Edit/Delete Post 
The real key is to determine what magic can and cannot do. That will dictate everything else.

think of something that we normally do, possibly with difficulty, that would be done easier with magic.
I have done several story ideas based on where there is no electricity or electricity had not been developed. One might have magic to cause the spark in the place of the spark plug so you can have cars.
One might have magic turn water into a fuel, or use magic to filter crude oil into the various oils we now use.

One can have fun if magic users can add magic to items. If there is magic creatures one can have even more fun. consider capturing glowing faries and using them for household lights. Magic is used to keep them living.
One might have demons turn the crankshaft of the car, being the engine.
One might have trash cans where things age rapidly so kitchen wastes compost over hours metal cans rust to nothing in a day or so, paper ages and crumbles. It reduces to almost nothing. It does not have to be emptied for months.

One can have computers where the switches on the computer chips are magic not electrical. They might be a whole lot bigger than what we have, or slower, but it might take a simpler technology.

One might have "cans of fireballs" that are combat fire balls made by magicians and stored up. one uses a valve to control the heat for cooking.

The GPS might be magical, detecting several high magic sites and tracking based on maps added to it, rather than by satellites.

There can be a whole lot more done with imagination and the rules of your magic, especially in industry where magic might add to the process like chemical reactions or welding processes.

If anything comes even close, let us know and we can come up with other ideas. I do know there were other subjects over the past couple years where magic and technology was discussed.


Posts: 1008 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teraen
Member
Member # 8612

 - posted      Profile for Teraen   Email Teraen         Edit/Delete Post 
OSC uses technology and magic to define scifi vs. fantasy. In short, if the impossible stuff is done with magic, you are writing fantasy. If the impossible stuff is done with technology, you are writing science fiction. I think this makes them inherently difficult to combine. In fact, the only good example I can think of that uses both to do impossible stuff is Star Wars. (Magic = the Force, Technology = lightsabers, spaceships, etc...)

Most other fantasy novels, for example, will use a technology level less advanced than we are now. That may be why most fantasy stories take place in a medieval type setting. You said you are thinking wild-west type technology, so that fits this as well. And remember, technology is always created by engineers, who create based off of whatever scientific progress has been achieved. Any technology will reflect this (can you imagine an ancient Roman using a laptop? Its anachronistic...) Nevertheless, all stories have some level of technology (whether its a caveman building a fire or a knight getting a sword from a blacksmith, etc) Humans tend to manipulate their environments, and the result, no matter how advanced, is technology.

That being said, remember you are the creator here. You can do whatever you want. At this point, you have managed to come up with a premise only, not a story. Your premise is the world in which the events will take place, one where magic and tech co-exist. The story will come when characters make decisions, interact, and face consequences. Try not to get the two confused Once you come up with a story, you can adapt your magic/technology dichotomy however you need to make it work. Likewise, if you have some interesting way the two can interact, you can use it to help mold your story.

For example, you may have a magic-user fighting a technology user as your central conflict. Inherent in this will be deciding which is stronger. Who has the advantage? Neither? Do you want your main character to overcome huge obstacles? (If so, you'll have to make him a member of the weaker branch.) Do you want him to fall from great heights? (If so, you'll have to make him a member of the stronger branch.) Does he end up finding a way to combine the benefits of both that was previously unknown?

Your idea sounds interesting, but remember that creating the world and creating the story rely on each other, but aren't the same thing! Don't be afraid to abandon a good world-building idea in order to make your story better!


Posts: 496 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Owasm
Member
Member # 8501

 - posted      Profile for Owasm   Email Owasm         Edit/Delete Post 
I've got the first draft of a novel done that has the issue of technology vs. magic as it's focus.

I think when they coexist and there is some kind of market for either, the most efficient will rise to dominance.

For example, if magic can't move large objects, then technology (i.e. a truck) will dominate the environment.

Magicians can make fire, but matches can too. If there is any cost to magicians for lighting a candle (i.e. losing their powers, even in a miniscule way), even they will likely opt for a match.

So you might think of it in terms of cost/benefit. There are all kinds of room for conflict. For example a magical/society that mandates a certain way to the exclusion of the other.


Posts: 1608 | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
genevive42
Member
Member # 8714

 - posted      Profile for genevive42   Email genevive42         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for all of the great ideas.

Teraen, I do appreciate the reminder but don't worry. I realize that this premise is not a story. And as most of you commented I know I have to define my magic to truly figure this out. I was was just looking for thoughts and maybe testing to see if I was possibly barking up the wrong tree. But after all of your comments I think I can make this work.

I looked at my first novel and realized that it needs a drastic amount of world building. In thinking about how I would shape the world I started asking, 'What if?' I also considered that this might not be the best time to be trying to sell high fantasy. While not entirely trying to tailor to the market, I asked myself if I could be happy with these characters in a different setting.

I don't think I feel comfortable with them in modern times or the future. But that led me to consider the Old West. Even when I was writing in my medievalish setting I was tempted to slide into a westerm feel.

One of my current dilemmas is the presence of guns. I am debating between and pre and post-gun creation world. I also thought that maybe the gun gets invented within the time of the story to create a whole new conflict.

My original story had one group (of a different race) invading the human lands. Maybe they have invented guns and the humans have to try and catch up.

I'm always happy to hear more thoughts. Thank you all.


Posts: 1993 | Registered: Jul 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rstegman
Member
Member # 3233

 - posted      Profile for rstegman   Email rstegman         Edit/Delete Post 
Guns can be done in many ways besides gunpowder.

During Nepolian's time, the air powered muskets were already in use. They were more powerful, more accurate and quick to load than gunpowder muskets at the time. Nepolian sent out a decree. Anybody caught with one of those rifles will be tortured to death. They disappeared.

Really, a gun is simply sudden expansion of gas to launch a projectile. One could use magic to do that. Add a magic object into the gun and when it goes off, it sends out the bullet.
the use of such gun might appear to be in a western, but maybe loading the shells is a problem, or it might attact gnats so their guns are always covered by bugs, making it slippery.
The bullet might have a "desire" for hitting something and is being held back by the shell until you pull the trigger to release it. The bullet is not bright, so it goes out straight and when it stops, all the joy of the flight is gone.

Steam in the steam engines can be made by various methods. One could be by mage fire, by demons,or the wood is magically protected so it burns longer or never burns out. There could be a trapped or trained dragon that is blowing fire onto the boiler to build up the steam.

The only thing you need to do is to make it sound plausible, if not logical.


Posts: 1008 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MartinV
Member
Member # 5512

 - posted      Profile for MartinV   Email MartinV         Edit/Delete Post 
The cartoon series Avatar: The Last Airbender comes to mind.

It is a setting where people from each of the four nations can manipulate with the given element - there's magic. But they (Fire nation, at least) are also using technology, so you have armies made of cavalry and tanks. The truly interesting bit were the submarines that used water bending as propulsion. Or baloons using fire bending for propulsion. Or the train that used earth bending for propulsion. Air benders also use their ability to manipulate the air currents around their gliders so they can actually fly.

They really mixed their magic and technology here.


Posts: 1271 | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jmsbrtms
Member
Member # 8874

 - posted      Profile for Jmsbrtms   Email Jmsbrtms         Edit/Delete Post 
The Luddites of both sides would have to be in balance.
Fire Ball = Hand Grenade. Demon Lord = Tank.

It may be just as expensive in blood and treasure to summon the demon as it is to build the tank. except you will use real blood.


Posts: 19 | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Architectus
Member
Member # 8809

 - posted      Profile for Architectus   Email Architectus         Edit/Delete Post 
Check out shadowrun, the role playing (dice version) game. The story is well developed and has tech and magic.
Posts: 161 | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dark Warrior
Member
Member # 8822

 - posted      Profile for Dark Warrior   Email Dark Warrior         Edit/Delete Post 
The Apprentice Adept series by Piers Anthony has always been my favorite blend of magic and science. Starts out as two different 'dimensions' that overlap same area. At times, and then eventually on a permanent basis, the two converge.
Posts: 710 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2