posted
A few things here... A) Is it wrong to start a story off with a short poem of sorts? My college creative writing professor dis-advised me on using poems and dreams as openers (I know, not so creative after all). I have usually spent my time writing poetry rather than short stories. Both of which I am very fond of. But I feel that both can coexist together in the same cover. All I have to do is find a way to bring both to life without smothering the other.
B) When writing, I feel like I over detail certain things in the story/poem. Then this causes me to get off track with my original idea. I've been told "Show don't tell", but upon reading in 'Uncle Orson's Writing Class- POV' he says "Tell don't Show." Which aspects of a story/poem should be told and which ones shown? Should most of what is written be 'Told' instead of 'Shown'?
posted
I would say, why not try it? If you want to write short stories, you're going to have to write a lot of them to get better. So try different things and see what works for you. Sometimes you have to make your own mistakes to understand why they're mistakes and sometimes you find out you were right after all.
quote:B) When writing, I feel like I over detail certain things in the story/poem. Then this causes me to get off track with my original idea. I've been told "Show don't tell", but upon reading in 'Uncle Orson's Writing Class- POV' he says "Tell don't Show." Which aspects of a story/poem should be told and which ones shown? Should most of what is written be 'Told' instead of 'Shown'?
This actually just came up in a writing exercise for a different forum, with the clearest explanation I've seen yet.
In general you need to show scenes--places where the conflict in your story is or other important things. You tell transitions between scenes.
posted
The goal is to get the reader immersed in the story as soon as possible so they will keep on reading. Therefore a dream or a long poem will get in the way of that goal.
That said, a line or two of verse is innocuous enough that it won't get in the way.
As for telling rather than showing. I feel it's better to show than tell, but some things, again if kept to a minimum, can work more effectively by telling.
In the telling/showing, IMHO, it's where you're trying to get from point A to point B without dancing around in the middle of a story and it will move the reader along.
A) I think there are times when it is okay to begin a story with a dream or a poem, but you need to have a good reason for starting there. You need to think carefully why you want to start the story with a poem. Is the poem critical to the plot? Does it enhance the theme or set the mood? Remember the beginning of a story sets up the reader's expectations. IMO that is why the beginning is so crucial to get right no matter how you choose to begin it.
B) I think of show don't tell as know when to show and when to tell. You show scenes that are crucial to the story and when you want the reader to emotionally connect with the characters. You want them to feel the fear, sorrow, joy, etc. that the characters are feeling. You tell when you only want to convey information.
posted
Hmmm, some of what I would say has been said already so I will just add that I think it depends on how long the poem is and how it relates to the story. I have read published stories that began with a short poem so it can be done but it might take practice and/or a name. I have even read a couple of stories that began with a longer poem that related some incident in one to three lines, then the story tells what really happened.
As someone suggested and see what happens. There are rules to writing but at the same time there aren't any rules to writing. If that makes sense.
But practice is the name of the game, you write, write and more write while learning--did I say write?
As to Show and Tell, I'm still having some problems with that so I'm staying out of that discussion.
posted
No offense, but if I see a bunch of poetry at the beginning of a chapter, I usually glance to see if it is telling me anything truly important with the hopes that it's not so I don't have to bother reading it. At most, I would willingly read three lines. That's just me, but know that a bunch of poetry might put some people off.
As far as show vs. tell - Meredith has it exactly right. You usually do more telling than showing but the key is to show the important stuff. For example: After a harrowing battle escaping the Death Star, we don't need to see what happens to Luke and friends between there and when they reach the moon of Yavin. And since we weren't told anything about that part of the journey, we can assume it was nothing important. But we do need to see the preparations and the attack on the Death Star. It would be awful to get to the end and just be told that they blew the thing up, cut to medal ceremony.
posted
First off I really pity college creative writing professors. I think they feel a need to make the subject serious and important, and testable. And they think they need to do this with the art side of things. Where they really need to be teaching the craft side of things. They also tend to try to teach it as a backwards literature class, this gets them essays on literary theory instead of actual literature. (Sorry if I'm ranting here, I had a bad experience with a professor once and I've been thinking for a while what went wrong.)
Anyways: A) Wrong isn't really a helpful word when talking about creative writing. Instead think of things as less-effective/more-effective. Also think that everything you do will have consequences, and think more of those consequences than of right or wrong.
I like seeing a short poem at the beginning of a story, if it actually ends up meaning something to the story. Although I think a lot of people will scan right over it, thinking it's some front matter (like the title page, copyright info and dedication) they want to get to the story. So your job there is to make sure they get that the poem is part of the story.
Dreams as openers is a whole different can of worms. The trouble with starting with a dream is at the beginning the reader doesn't know anything about the world. If your character dreams monkeys in the kitchen, we have no way of knowing if this is a normal thing in your world or not. So the reader spends all this time thinking they are learning the rules of your story and then all bets are off with the line, "and then I woke up." So it comes off as a violation of trust right out of the gate.
B)My mantra in this discussion is Scene and Summary. Scene is "Show". To go back to Star Wars when everyone is sitting around in the main room Millennium Falcon---Luke is practicing the force. Obi-wan and Han are discussing religion and politics, and Chewie and the droids are contemplating game theory---that's a scene. It's detailed, and George Lucas spends quite a lot of movie time on people sitting around, so we can get to know these people, and races and concepts. Then they go into the cockpit sit down and spend two lines explaining how the hyperdrive works and bam they are halfway across the galaxy, that is the Summary, or "Tell".
Scene what is important, Summary what isn't but is still needed to understand the scenes. (And cut the parts out that aren't needed at all, some people forget to do this part.)
posted
If you say it's a dream right at the beginning ("He had the dream again last night." for example), so the reader knows it's a dream ("As soon as Tom saw the monkeys in the kitchen, he knew he was dreaming." as an other example) then it's fine to start with a dream.
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quote:What about this? OSC says "most times, most things, you tell-dont-show." ????This is OSC's site after all. ha.
But OSC was talking about motivation, not things like conflict. A character's motivation would have to be revealed through internal monologue (in close third POV). There's nothing external to show it with most of the time.
Conflict you can and should show. (Of course, if it's internal conflict, you might have to reveal it at least partly through internal monologue, too.)
[This message has been edited by Meredith (edited September 22, 2010).]
quote:Is it wrong to start a story off with a short poem of sorts?
Dispense with the idea that there is any concept of anything being "wrong" in a creative pursuit. There isn't. In the case of the poetry thing...and most things...its just going to depend on people's individual taste. In these (very common) situations go with what you personally like/think/want to do and augment/inform that with anything you may know about a specific editor/market's preferences.
"show don't tell" has so many different interpretations it's almost meaningless. All writing is in fact telling...so what is meant by "show" depends who you ask. However as has been said, level of detail (which may or may not relate to whether it's "shown" or "told") is usually...mind I say usually...directly linked to level of importance. However this is also modified by facts such what Meredith mentions...internal stuff is often very important but is almost impossible to directly "show"...it must be "told" through direct statement. Also, what is or isn't important is mostly up to you. Many people dislike a lot of detailed scenery description, such as what Tolkien uses , but for others (myself included) it greatly enhances the work.
My overreaching writing advice is always this. Write what you want to write and what seems good to you...then workshop it to help hopefully figure out if its achieving what you want it to in others.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited September 22, 2010).]
posted
I don't think it is wrong, but I think everything has a cost. The question for a writer is can I justify this cost. For example even if I say flat out, this is a dream and the reader isn't confused and all that, I still have the cost of not immediately introducing my reader to the real world. You also might have a cost in that certain things have been done so often very badly that readers immediately roll their eyes. So, you might have it work in your story and in a vacuum, it is worth the cost, but it isn't doable anymore because the reader has disengaged. For example, your sparkly vampire might be the coolest most awesome one ever and sparkles for a really good reason, but the moment you say sparkly vampire, your reader is thinking "ripoff" or "no way that can compare" or "ugh, not again." So, the cost ends up not being worth it cause the reader flips to the next story.
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posted
I don't know whether you're thinking of putting a short poem (or short bit of a poem) at the front of the story as an epigraph, or whether you intend something lengthier that carries the narrative forward.
The former is done all the time, and is perfectly acceptable, but I can't recall an example of the latter. (Narrative poems would be a different matter.)
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