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Author Topic: The order of revisions
kevenwall
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I wanted everyone's opinion on this...and I'm sure there isn't 1 right answer...

1. Is it better to write the entire novel before revisions take place, or should revisions be a constant part of the writing process and,

2. IF it's better to revise as one writes then how often should it happen.

My fear is that I'll write the entire thing, then go through and start revising and realize that I've made a HUGE mistake early on that will render all that I've done useless...is that crazy?


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Meredith
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First rule: Write all the way through to "THE END".

"Dare to be bad, at first." (That's a quote from Kevin J. Anderson.)

After it's written, you can fix anything, but first get the story down and don't look back.

The danger of revising as you go is that you will never get to "THE END".


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Natej11
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Meridith's rule is a valuable one, especially for new writers or writers facing writer's block, but I tend to disagree.

I spend a lot of time thinking about my book: what I'm going to write, what I have written, and how I'm going to make everything work. It's a great idea to start out writing and keep going until it's done, but what about when you think about some change you need to make earlier in the story so it makes sense or flows smoother? Do you wait until you're done and then get back to it, maybe forgetting important points in the process?

One thing that's especially helped me in getting going on writing is to not treat the continuum as sacred from beginning to end. If I have an idea, even one I might not use, or some fragment of a scene that I like, I sit down and write it. I'll skip to whatever part of the story is coming to me at the time. And while I'll try to make sure they're in proper chronological order, sometimes I just let the scenes flow, then create an entirely new document to put the chapters in with a more refined format, revising and editing as I go.

It may seem chaotic but it helps me write, especially with books as long as the one I'm working on. As I get to a chapter I'll copy and paste all the relevant segments from my previous work and put them together. And if an idea comes to me I at least write it down for later. Sometimes even if it's the middle of the night .


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RoxyL
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To me this seems like an individual decision. It is a good idea to get the story out as quickly as possible. Stephen King in 'On Writing' says after three months his creative side tends to get bored and wants to move on. That three month mark seems to be a fairly good goal to shoot for.

Now, after saying 'get the story out quickly', doing Nano was a very depressing venture for me because I knew major things needed to change and because I couldn't or didn't I felt most of what I wrote was a waste. I still haven't gone back to look at my nano novel.

In my current WIP I realized the second major section was not working and scrapped 10k words for something that will actually move the story. I regularly add little details to the previous writing so I won't forget to add them later. Is that editing? Yes. But it fills me with more enthusiasm that the novel will be in a coherent format at the end.

You have to decide what works for you. Just make sure you keep writing.


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Meredith
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Very often new ideas come up as I write. But, if I'm in a first draft, I will just make a note of the idea or what I need to change with as much detail as I have or feel is necessary and continue on with the story. First drafts only go forward.

@Natej11: I do very much the same thing. If something comes to me, a fragment or a whole scene, I'll jot it down. I don't try to make it complete, though. I often leave out setting, etc. And then I'll put it in where it belongs and add the internal monologue, setting details, etc at that time.


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kevenwall
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I came across something today that I realized I wanted to change from earlier in my writing. I think I'll do that...try and get through the entire story, but if my story develops so that a specific part of the story needs to be changed, I think I'll make the change.

So, if I want someone's critiques, does that need to wait until the end of the first draft, or can that happen before it's finished?


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Meredith
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First drafts tend to be a really vulnerable period for a writer. A bad critique, even a well-intentioned one, could kill your enthusiasm. First 13 lines, maybe. I've been known to do that.

But I really don't invite anybody to read my story until after the second draft.

That's me.


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kevenwall
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Thanks...that makes sense, but sometimes I still need to hear it. I know I don't even really want to read what I've written now for fear of deleting the whole thing...but I'm stumbling through it.
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rstegman
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What I have done on my longer short stories, was if I saw something that I wanted to change, I would shift the story where I was at to the change that was needed and continue on and get to the end.

don't be afraid of re-writing also. You would be surprised at how much better the story will be. There are times that entire portions of the first draft cannot be used (learned this very recently)


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Robert Nowall
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A plus about computers is that, to an extent, you can revise as you go along. Overall, though, I think it's better to have it finished when you begin your second draft. I like to retype it into the computer...makes me consider every word as I do. (On the other hand, I haven't managed to finish anything at novel length since just after I got my first computer.)
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Winters
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Useless writing rarely exists. It's always good practice, even when it's trash.

I'm of the camp that thinks it's a good idea to keep writing to the end before revising (whether you're a panster or an outliner, I think it still applies). It's good for discipline, and for experience under the ol' belt. Otherwise, if you revise each sentence after you write it, you really won't get anywhere.

Your story's a vehicle: you need a destination but you will never reach it if you get out to check the oil every mile.

[This message has been edited by Winters (edited March 05, 2011).]


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KayTi
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I stick notes right in the text of my first draft to keep track of things or to check a fact or bit of data. "Remember to go back and make sure she sees the X on the wall in the chapter where she's running down the hall to get Jory."

Or "Note to self: go back and change character from A-B" (then I begin using character name B from that point forward.)

For me I can't do much revision while I am writing because it totally pulls me out of the story. I re-read a bit at the beginning of my next writing session, and if I happen to see a typo I'll fix it at the time (particularly if it's something like bets when I meant to write boats - that wouldn't have come up with spell check but make the sentence COMPLETELY unintelligible.)

I think everyone has to find their particular style of writing and editing and figure out their groove, but my primary caution to those new at writing is to ensure you're getting to The End at some point, and that anything you're doing will contribute to reaching The End.

I think we forget sometimes while creating a story that...we're WRITERS. If this story is fatally flawed for some reason, we can put it aside and write a *new* story. At the beginning of my time writing, I know I worried over single stories entirely too much. Now my focus is on getting them done, fixing mistakes, and moving on. I've got an endless supply of stories in my head and if I spend all my time tweaking one, I won't get to the others who are patiently waiting for me to tell them.


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LDWriter2
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I think you have had some good answers but I want to add my comments Most will probably agree with what has been said in some of the notes.


It depends on what you mean by revision. Even after I an done with a chapter and am onto the next I will go back and add something I forgot or realize that I haven't explained something very well or decided I need to expand a scene. So I continually go back and make tiny revisions. But I like to wait until I am all the way done to do a complete revision. Even though I have, at times, redone a chapter before I was finished with the whole book. This is especially true here with the F&F book forum, the chapter group and something similar on another site.

But more than one pro has said to wait 'till you're all the way done and I can see why they say that. As I said I usually do that but I don't feel it strong enough to be strict about it.


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EVOC
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I suppose I do a combo of both, but in general I get the whole thing out first. Then I go back and review and rewrite as needed. I have found some glaring mistakes that have required considerable rewriting, but that is part of the process.

For longer works, I will re-read the last bit of what I wrote the time before. If I see any glaring mistakes I change them, but otherwise leave it for the end.

As to how many rewrites to do... that is a tough one. It is so easy to over do it. I have scrapped more then one story because I revised it too much and the story lost all appeal.


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Reziac
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I'm a bit of a freak; I don't do major revisions at all. By the time a scene comes into my head it's already in very nearly final form, and I line-edit on the fly. Any rewrites I do will be small tweaks and added material, never subtracted, as I'm far more likely to omit than to pad.

In observing others' WIPs, tho, there seem to be two major schools of revision:

-- Line edits to fix the usual issues (wordiness, needlessly purple prose, awkward/broken grammar, etc.) This doesn't generally do any harm (unless over-editing kills the voice, but that's another issue) and usually improves the work.

-- Wholesale slaughter, hack-and-slash revision that cuts and replaces whole sections. You don't need that scene, it does nothing for the story, so kill it!

But wait, I say... are you so sure it's unnecessary? More often, in my observation, the problem is that the scene is unfinished, or poorly developed, rather than needless.

I just beta-read a novel that has this very problem. The whole 2nd act is flat; the MC is bored and wants out of there, and the reader does too. So the initial impression is that it should just be omitted and dealt with via backstory bits. But then the book as a whole loses balance, and later parts lose impact.

The real solution is that this 2nd act needs to be made more full and complete, so the reader remains interested in it. The MC has to become more involved in his own avoidance of what's around him, to express active, fretful boredom rather than passive wait-for-it-to-end boredom. And the motivations of the people holding him need to become more full-dimensional, less idealized.

But I think most writers would kill it in frustration, rather than realising that the problem was ... the whole section just isn't FINISHED, in this case because it's unfleshed, so it remains unfocused and flat.

Now, that's not to say that you should permit clutter like the author lecturing us, or characters that navel-gaze to no purpose, or infodumps that make our eyes glaze over. But before you cut that scene that you can't make work, consider: Is the problem that it doesn't fit, or that you didn't actually finish and flesh out that scene?? Or maybe you didn't finish the scene that should lead into or out of it?

Before you cut that scene, be sure you're removing a tumour, not lopping off a limb.


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enigmaticuser
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It's a question is, is this a revision for prose/style or is this a plot revision?

I start my WIP's with a timeline file that I begins with vague events becoming specific as the story file progresses (I also have a bio file).

In practice, going through I write to the end, I do make minor changes at the "present" if I run into a problem (did the MC have a rifle or a pistol?..go check the timeline...ahh right, well it needs to be a rifle...go back to page X make change). Now if I've changed it in those two places, after I've written the end and go back for a whole revision then if I run into inconsistancies I can fix them because I know where I was going, its like reading a typo and knowing what it was supposed to be because you know where the sentence goes.

The problem with making major revisions for style/prose before you reach the end, is that if you don't know where the story ends how are you going to make course corrections enroute? Even minor plot issues I would say the same, we might not have the mechanics today of how the MC does such and such, but by the time you reach the end you might.

Make revisions to obvious plot problems that GET YOU TO THE END, but don't worry about revisions for style or minor problems without the end in sight.


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rstegman
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enigmaticuser

I can think of at this moment that there are three schools of writing, most authors seem to use all three at some time or another, and may combine them also. There may be others but at this second, I cannot think of them.

One,
They create their characters and worlds in detail so when they write, their characters will tell them what is going to happen. They will do a certain thing in a given situation, so all you do is guide them into the situations.

Two
One outlines the story and then writes to meet the outline points. How detailed the outline is depends on the story and and the author. I liked just having the absolute high points and aim for them. Others will write the outline in super detail and then just fill in the spaces. I have done a quick free write of the whole story, one to three pages, before I start, to act as my outline.

Three,
This is the one I do the most of. All my story ideas are written this way and an unpublished too big novel was written like this. One has some scenes and situations and start writing to set up the situation, experience it, and then finish up the story. In a way it is like an outline but without the detail. It is also like character development but it is done on the fly rather than detailing it out.

Each one has advantages and disadvantages. they each react differently to plot changes decided on while writing.

If one outlines in some way, one can redo an outline quickly to see how the plot change will effect the entire story line. Lot faster than rewriting a whole story to meet the change.

If you created your characters and world before hand, does this plot change mean a change in your world or character creation? I don't know.
I have not started writing that way. I admit I want to get to story first, work out the details later.


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