Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » Developmental Editing (Page 2)

  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Developmental Editing
History
Member
Member # 9213

 - posted      Profile for History   Email History         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by MattLeo:
Hmm. In my professional career, I've had titles like "Software Architect" and "Chief Technologist", but *most* of my job, the real value in it, was getting people who were talking past each other to start listening to each other.

In mine, I've had titles like "Major", "Department Chair," "President," and (of course) "Doctor", etc. All based on accumulated experience and expertise helping others, including helping others help themselves. I've been saluted and had large groups of people stand when I enter a room --which becomes readily tiresome (though you cannot show this--part of receiving respect is accepting it and the responsibility associated with it. Respecting others' respect toward you is part of showing it in return). I am, however, relieved that nealy all this is behind me except for the applelation "Doctor" (at least for a couple more years).

Extrinsic, you will similarly need to earn respect as a "developmental editor." This will take time. Your initial experience and training are just the beginning.

Treat your clients and their work with equal respect, learn their goals for a particular story or as writers; and then advise them on how you believe they can best achieve them.

Recognize that not all have the goal of writing for "mass audience appeal"; although, as others have mentioned, what has mass audience appeal is never certain.

Presumptive bias curtails creativity.

I think a developmental editor would serve me best in helping sculpt and polish a story regardless of whether or not the editor believes the story has "mass appeal." It would be valuable to talk (and receive suggestions) with someone knowledgeable in storycraft to whom I can discuss what I am seeking to achieve in each scene and the story as a whole. Where should I cut or shorten? Where are there pace issues? Where is the story overly opaque or "pedantic" [Wink] Etc.

Just my two shekels, of course.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

[ February 28, 2013, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: History ]

Posts: 1475 | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
Ten responders.
Several extend mixed advice, caution, correction, and control.
Several express degrees of mixed messages, allowing for collaboration potentials contradicted by ad hominem and tu quoque argumentation.
Two responders answered several of the survey questions and asked for clarification.

Five or six responders are ambiguous.
One or two account for a writer's perspective.
Two or three account for a business perspective.
Two or three are ambivalent.
Seven or eight exhibit status contention paradigms.
Two or three exhibit encouragement, support, and interest.
Two or three exhibit social bonding and writing conversation potentials.

Age, gender, and social and financial status divisions, though largely not given, are implied, and finely define responders' writing life situations.

Analysis reveals roughly two-thirds consider degrees of developmental editing worthy of attention. One-third consider developmental editing to degrees intrusive upon a writer's self-reliance. One-third consider collaboration an essential part of the writing process. One-third prefer to complicate other writers' journeys over simplifying their own.

I conclude from these nonscientific, random, self-selected survey results that roughly a third of writers have the wherewithal, passion, commitment, and emotional maturity to engage in varying degrees of writer-developmental editor correspondence. One-third oscillate on the fence. And one-third feel anywhere from indifferent to apathetic to frustrated. No new knowledge there.

New knowledge derived from this survey: that writers' awareness of publishing culture's state of flux is widely unsettled, in general are naive about the culture, and to degrees powerless to realize their writing potentials; that is, powerless before publishing culture.

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MAP
Member
Member # 8631

 - posted      Profile for MAP           Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, I'm not sure what you want to gain from posting this, extrinsic.

IMO, you should keep your analysis of others' posts to yourself. It feels a little disrespectful.

That said, I have a much different interpretation of the comments on this thread than you do. Take that as you will.

I don't know if I'll hire a developmental editor or not. I may someday, but it is not something I'm interested in at this time. But you can't deny that many writers achieve their publishing goals without paying for one, and hiring one in no way guarentees success.

Posts: 1102 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
babooher
Member
Member # 8617

 - posted      Profile for babooher   Email babooher         Edit/Delete Post 
I would think self-publishers could really use one. I would not say one is necessary, but I could see how it might be useful. I'm unclear, though, what credit you'd need to give to the developmental editor. What is the boundary between developmental editor and co-author?
Posts: 823 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattLeo
Member
Member # 9331

 - posted      Profile for MattLeo   Email MattLeo         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by extrinsic:
I conclude from these nonscientific, random, self-selected survey results that roughly a third of writers have the wherewithal, passion, commitment, and emotional maturity to engage in varying degrees of writer-developmental editor correspondence.

LOL! Make sure you only say things like that when you know you're among friends. [Smile] Actually, if 1/3 of us have what it takes to justify *paying* for such services, I'd be very surprised.

Less than 1% of mss written are ever stocked in bookstores, and 90% of *those* sell less than 1000 copies. If it takes 1000 hours (very conservatively) to write a short novel and prepare it for publication, and you expect to get $2 of royalties per copy (generous estimate for paperbacks), that means when you write that novel there's a 99.9% chance you'll make less than $2/hour for your pains.

And this gets to the big problem I see with your business aspirations. Your services will be nearly impossible to justify to anyone on economic grounds. Maybe you can convince enough people to pay you to make a living wage, but if an author's goal is getting traditionally published it makes little sense for him to invest any money in the manuscript. Maybe you help him make his book so much better it doubles its expected revenues; still, twice practically nothing is still practically nothing.

Now self-publishing is a place where chances might be better. The royalties on self-published ebooks are much higher percentage-wise, although the typical sales figures are even more dismal. But suppose you can show an author that your comments from a read-through could help him boost sales by, say, another 1000 copies. Then if you're a fast reader you could find a price point where it's worth both your whiles.

The problem is that self-publishers need editing, but they *also* need a lot of other things before investing in editing for their ms makes any economic sense.

A friend of mine landed an agent, who was unable to sell any of her works. So after a year or two she went the self-publishing route. Just last month her third book cracked the very bottom of the NYTimes ebook best seller list -- legitimately too, no bogus sales. The trick was that she came out of a marketing background and knew how to build sales. She hired a gifted artist to design her book and cover, and crafted her own marketing campaign. She's spent the last several years in a tireless campaign to build her fan base.

Before developmental editing can make a difference in sales you've got to have enough initial sales to prime the word-of-mouth pump. And that means that before a self-published author can think about paying you a few thousand dollars of editing, he ought to have someone lined up to do the artwork, marketing and publicity himself.

What I'm thinking is that a successful consultancy either takes money from people purely on the basis of non-economic values (e.g., I want my book to be superb, even if it doesn't sell), or it has to provide a full array of services that helps the author reach profitability.

Or perhaps it's not necessarily a consultancy. Maybe it's a co-op, or some kind of web-based literary incubator. The point is just *finding* people who can do what's needed is overwhelming for an author. They need something like a virtual publisher for a post-print world. I don't know. I do know if someone is going to make a living doing support in today's publishing market, they'll probably have to do something more creative than hang out a shingle.

Posts: 1459 | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by babooher:
I would think self-publishers could really use one. I would not say one is necessary, but I could see how it might be useful. I'm unclear, though, what credit you'd need to give to the developmental editor. What is the boundary between developmental editor and co-author?

At least one developmental editor I checked into expresses explicit contract terms that imply a co-author-like relationship. The terms require frontmatter acknowledgement and inclusion in copyright registration as the editor, to name a few. I'm not that crass. Most editors are grateful for backmatter acknowledgement or none at all in order to protect privacy. Editors tend to catch a lot of grief from writers, even editors to whom they owe a measure of their success. Editors also tend to attract desperate writers looking for an easy break. So editors tend to keep their names or their roles out of frontmatter and backmatter acknowledgments.

A sincere editor is content just to meaningfully participate in the art conversation that writing is.

[ March 01, 2013, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
MattLeo,

You seem focused on the business and legal concerns as if a lawyer were expecting black and white absolutes of testimonial evidence. Editing is a conversation; at times adversarial, at times warm and supportive, at times meaningful in spite of the complications. Wherewithal is about a heck of a lot more than ability to pay: professionalism, courtesy, respect, cooperation, to name a few.

I will not engage to any degree of absolutes with anyone on any topic. Though I am assertive, I do not hold myself out as an irreproachable authority. I might define prescriptive terms on, say, use of a grammar manual principle like coordinate constructions or dialect appropriate to an audience, or a rhetoric principle like decorum: suiting one's words to the subject matter and both to the occasion and the audience; however, writer discretion prevails.

No matter the wherewithal situation, I'm open to negotiating a working relationship with any writer open to a free exchange of ideas who doesn't express too harsh an attitude.

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattLeo
Member
Member # 9331

 - posted      Profile for MattLeo   Email MattLeo         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by extrinsic:
At least one developmental editor I checked into expreses explicit contract terms that imply a co-author-like relationship. The terms require frontmatter acknowledgement and inclusion in copyright registration as the editor, to name a few. I'm not that crass.

Personally, I think you are being excessively punctilious.

Every traditional publishing house puts its trademark on the title page of the books they publish. They put their *brand* on the author's work -- not just the author's work but the work of the book designers, artists, and editors who contributed to that work.

I wouldn't claim to be co-author, but your business name and role should be noted on the colophon at least. And while not traditional, it's not unreasonable for your business's trademark to be on the title page where the publisher's would be -- if you offer the writer a consideration like a break on up front fees. It's all about striking a fair deal.

This is basic marketing. Customers need to know how to find you and how to judge your work. They need the help, and you need to get paid, preferably in cash, but if they can't pay you as much as you need up front, well publicity and recognition are valuable commodities too.

Posts: 1459 | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattLeo
Member
Member # 9331

 - posted      Profile for MattLeo   Email MattLeo         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by extrinsic:
MattLeo,

You seem focused on the business and legal concerns as if a lawyer were expecting black and white absolutes of testimonial evidence.

Oh, no, not like a lawyer at all. A lawyer tells you how to keep out of court. I'm concerned with creating sustainable enterprises.

Of course if you're keeping your day job and you don't need to feed and house yourself off the proceeds of your business, then I'm barking up the wrong tree; but remember most small businesses fail. I've done both ways, succeeding and failing, and you learn different lessons from both.

Posts: 1459 | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
I have several successful "day jobs," afternoon and evening, writing-related jobs actually, that provide my bread and butter and shelter. I have the desire and the wherewithal to expand them. I've worked now as an editor for a dozen years, for example. I work currently on a publication and have for several publications the past dozen years. My publishing curriculum vitae has legs and arms.

[ March 01, 2013, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grumpy old guy
Member
Member # 9922

 - posted      Profile for Grumpy old guy   Email Grumpy old guy         Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting notion, to survey responders to a thread in an on-line forum. And, ultimately pointless. The sample is too small to be meaningful. 1,000 people scattered across socioeconomic classes is a standard minimum.

If I ever get any of my stories to the point where I'm considering trying to get them published, I'll hire an editor first (not a developmental one), and then try for an agent. If, after a year or so, my story is still unrepresented, I'll self publish and market. I have some experience in successfully marketing some fairly unmarketable things.

The cover art of your story, if you're marketing it yourself, is crucial. It's what gets a potential purchaser to pause long enough to consider reading the first sentence of the story's blurb. And that's the second most important part of your story--and the actual hook, not the first 13.

It's only after you've done those things that you need to worry about the actual content of your story, its structure and pacing. You need to convert a browser into a looker and then a buyer. And it aint no simple task.

Phil.

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Foste
Member
Member # 8892

 - posted      Profile for Foste   Email Foste         Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, let's be good sports here, everyone.

Extrinsic might have analyzed us, but in turn we learned a lot about extrinsic from his posts.

Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
I asked six straightfoward questions. Two responded to them. The majority of other responses expressed unasked-for advices, undermining commentary, and demeaning personal attacks.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grumpy old guy
Member
Member # 9922

 - posted      Profile for Grumpy old guy   Email Grumpy old guy         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally quoted by extrinsic
and demeaning personal attacks.

I do hope I did not contribute to any of that. If I did, it was unintentional and I unreservedly apologise.

Phil.

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy old guy:
I do hope I did not contribute to any of that. If I did, it was unintentional and I unreservedly apologise.

Phil.

I think I recognize differences between intentional malfeasance and sincere, well-intended commentary. I appreciate, sir, that you strive for the latter and avoid the former. Thank you.

I have two hundred pages of tedious editing work in my queue, a publication to lay out, am putting up interior ceiling and wall panels in my studio, preparing a writing conference presentation about plot (unrelated to the thread topic and outcomes), and I have the flu. My patience for locker room roughhousing is worn a little thin. I apologize, too, for my reactionary trespasses.

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Reziac
Member
Member # 9345

 - posted      Profile for Reziac   Email Reziac         Edit/Delete Post 
I've done what amounts to "developmental editing" (albeit unpaid) as described by extrinsic. Two of the writers I worked with have since been published; one placed in the WOTF contest. And a writing group I was in way-back-when did the same for each other (under the leadership of a university professor of writing), an experience I credit with sending me in the right direction as a writer.

It's basically very specialized tutoring, and IMO we probably need more folks who can do this, particularly those who can help strengthen a style and voice, rather than leveling it to the common denominator.

Seems to me the rate structure would fall at the high end since it's more than line editing.

Credit -- well, that might vary, tho certainly would be good advertising in the self-pub arena. Give a small rebate for acknowledgement, perhaps.

Posts: 782 | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you for sincerely addressing the questions I posed, Reziac.

You raise a point about focused editing commentary that writers oftentimes overlook; that is, the process builds one's own writing abilities. The process of finding laudable merits in addition to finding what might be less artistically virtuous strengthens both writers' skills. Edgar Allan Poe in "The Poetic Principle" speaks to this principle:

"Boccalini, in his 'Advertisements from Parnassus,' tells us that Zoilus once presented Apollo a very caustic criticism upon a very admirable book: — whereupon the god asked him for the beauties of the work. He replied that he only busied himself about the errors. On hearing this, Apollo, handing him a sack of unwinnowed wheat, bade him pick out all the chaff for his reward." (Poe)

Poe, Edgar A. "The Poetic Principle." Edgar Allen Poe Society of Batimore. http://www.eapoe.org/works/essays/poetprnb.htm

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Reziac
Member
Member # 9345

 - posted      Profile for Reziac   Email Reziac         Edit/Delete Post 
Zac'ly... no one gets better solely from being told (or shown) what they did wrong. They also need to learn what they did right, so they can build from that.
Posts: 782 | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tesknota
Member
Member # 10041

 - posted      Profile for tesknota   Email tesknota         Edit/Delete Post 
Here are my thoughts about your questions, extrinsic. Before I delve into them, I feel like I should explain to you a bit more about me, because I probably represent a fraction of your potential clientele.

I enjoy writing as a hobby. I have a pretty good grasp over basic grammar and spelling. My peers mostly do not write for leisure, so I do not go to them for any kind of assistance on my writing. I am at a point in my life when I am starting to seriously pursue writing as something more than just a hobby. I, however, have no formal training in writing. I've read a couple of writing books throughout the years (like OSC's "Characters and Viewpoint"), but I have no idea how you're able to retain all of those famous book references in your mind and pull them out as you please. I only know about what I like and don't like; I don't know the theory behind pretty much anything.

Now, to answer your questions.


Do you think a developmental editor might be useful for your projects and growth as a writer?

I do think that a developmental editor would be useful for my growth as a writer. Your comments (I've read a surprising number of them already) are very thought out, and there's a lot of benefit to be gained from your input.

A developmental editor would also be helpful for my projects. However, I tend to have a habit of not finishing them. If I were paying for the services of a DE, this may no longer be true, but I don't know. In any case, I think that having a DE would be more helpful towards my overall growth as a writer than towards my projects.


Do you think a developmental editor risks and rewards justify the expense?

I think that the expense would be justified. Then again, I believe that money is meant to be spent on things one truly cares about. Now, I would be taking a huge gamble if I were to choose a random DE to go through my work with me; I might not consider that a wise expense. Like some previous posters have mentioned, I would like to see a good track record first. However, since I have seen your commentary, I can say that you'd be worth the expense. You would just have to build up this reputation with the general public (which I think you might have done already, judging from your description of your day job).

How about after going through a year's work and still not finding an agent or publishing house interested in the product, would you feel the effort and expense were wasted and perhaps feel aggrieved?

A little bit, but that's just human nature. However, if throughout this year the DE has been trying his/her best to support me and to improve my work, I would not blame the DE. I would, however, probably not use a DE anymore. And maybe through two years of fruitlessness, not one.

Do you think a developmental editor could foster appeal improvement for a self-published product sufficiently to justify the time expended, the effort, and the expense?

Not for a self-published product, no. If I'm going to work with a DE, I'm aiming for a proper, traditional publisher - bookstores, hardcovers, paperbacks, a familiar publishing house logo on the inside cover, etc. If I choose to self-publish, I'd just try to do the best I can with what I have. I just don't foresee enough success with the latter to justify paying extra for help.

Do you think a developmental editor's contributions should be noticed on an acknowledgment page? A cover? Or other front- or backmatter?

An acknowledgement page. A cover might be too much and somewhat confusing, and I just feel like the back cover should be reserved for commentary and/or a summary. I think it would be fair to devote an entire page somewhere near the front or the back of the book to an acknowledgement of the DE.

I can't answer your question on rate structure. I'm not very familiar with publishing finances. I'll leave those questions to those with more experience in the field.


Anyway, best of luck in this endeavor!

Posts: 252 | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
tesknota, thank you for your informative and forthright responses.

What can I say? I am cursed by a blessed strong memory. I remember. When I can't remember a poignant writing witicism verbatim or sufficiently to paraphrase, I remember where it is and go and look it up, from my personal library shelves or elsewhere.

I think grammar's benefits for a writer are oftentimes overlooked. Principles like syntax and diction curse many a struggling writer. Yet a careful look using fundamental grammar principles might reveal why a clause, sentence, or paragraph feels vague, passive, static, clumsy, or awkward. Once the proper syntax is realized, and by proper I mean strongest meaning and impact, a tangled meaning unit becomes clear and strong and then might suggest additional content that enhances a properly ordered meaning unit.

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grumpy old guy
Member
Member # 9922

 - posted      Profile for Grumpy old guy   Email Grumpy old guy         Edit/Delete Post 
extrinsic, I'm with you about grammar being an essential tool for a writer. And I rue the fact that when I started studying English Literature they'd dropped the corresponding course in grammar.

I'm toying with the notion of taking a remedial course in the subject. However, I've recently found a good primer on the subject and all I need now is simply the drive to start studying.

Phil.

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
Magnificent, Grumpy old guy.

For advanced grammar study, which has fallen out of fashion for some incomprehensible reason, I independently study rhetoric. One principle of rhetoric I'm especially intrigued by states that any given grammatical vice can be a rhetorical virtue, which is a cognitive dissonance on the surface, but one that reconciling to one's satisfaction enhances voice mannerisms, audience appeal, and craft.

Passive voice is a potent example, widely considered a grammatical vice. Passive voice works persuasion magic when its proper uses are timely and judicisouly deployed, like passing responsibilty to a sentence or clause object, promoting or demoting subjects and objects, artfully withholding a subject identity, and when a subject or doer is unknown and artfully delayed pending revelation.

A claw hammer was thrown from the crowd and slammed Jeremiah's jaw.

The dread dangling participle is another grammatical vice near unanimously considered an error. However, em-dashes timely and judiciously deployed defuse dangling participles.

Leaping into the deep regardless—turbid surf obscured the jagged fjord's bottom from Brigid's sight.

I recommend a comprehensive rhetoric site to aid and inspire your grammar journey, fitting for mature, advanced grammar study: Silva Rhetoricae hosted by Brigham Young University and complied by Dr. Gideon Burton. The site is deep, wide, turbid, and jagged.

http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/silva.htm

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rcmann
Member
Member # 9757

 - posted      Profile for rcmann   Email rcmann         Edit/Delete Post 
Recall also that grammar is a servant, not a master. Read some of the old masters/mistresses and see the way that they tortured their grammar. It would sicken an inquisitor.
Posts: 884 | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattLeo
Member
Member # 9331

 - posted      Profile for MattLeo   Email MattLeo         Edit/Delete Post 
While I agree with what you are saying, I note (with approval) that you are qualified in labeling the passive voice as an error ("widely *considered* a grammatical vice").

I actually think there is nothing wrong about the passive voice, although it can certainly be abused. There's no mysterious rhetorical forces at work in the effective and normal use of the passive voice (as in your example). The passive voice is the natural way of constructing sentences in English where the subject cannot be specified. *Unpersuasive* examples of the passive voice usually amount to dissembling -- pretending that a subject is unidentifiable when its identity is obvious to the audience.

The example you give falls squarely within the natural and proper scope of the passive voice's application. Let me offer an example of passive voice that is adopted purely for rhetorical effect: "The floor was swept -- by *me*. The carpet was vacuumed -- by *me*. And the toilets were scrubbed -- by *me*."

I don't know the precise technical term for what the speaker is doing here, but clearly he (or she) is indulging in a form of irony by using the grammatical form for an indeterminate subject and then identifying the subject.

Posts: 1459 | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by rcmann:
Recall also that grammar is a servant, not a master. Read some of the old masters/mistresses and see the way that they tortured their grammar. It would sicken an inquisitor.

Past writers wrote in voices their audiences' sensibilities appreciated. They were different times. Many discourse communities today write similarly, a method of conversational dialect discourse within a folk group. Fiction gradually became more widely accessible and appealing over the course of the past hundred and fifty years, in part due to publishing technology advances. Arguably, many struggling fiction writers today torture grammar and their inquistors.

[ March 07, 2013, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by MattLeo:
Let me offer an example of passive voice that is adopted purely for rhetorical effect: "The floor was swept -- by *me*. The carpet was vacuumed -- by *me*. And the toilets were scrubbed -- by *me*."

I don't know the precise technical term for what the speaker is doing here, but clearly he (or she) is indulging in a form of irony by using the grammatical form for an indeterminate subject and then identifying the subject.

The speaker uses several rhetorical figures there. Which expresses the strongest clarity and influence? Perhaps the loose tricolon similar to Caesar's "Vini, vidi, vici." I came; I saw; I conquered. Or a loose epistasis: adding a repetitious, emphasizing, and concluding sentence or clause to what was expressed before. Hyperbaton: inverting syntactical order, re sentence subject for object. In terms of irony, using overstatement is in the form of repetition for an understatement effect. Anacoluthon: a scheme of interruption. And the overarching rhetorical scheme of repetition, substitution, and amplification for emphasis unifies the three sentences, a triplet, into a singular expressed idea.

[ March 07, 2013, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Reziac
Member
Member # 9345

 - posted      Profile for Reziac   Email Reziac         Edit/Delete Post 
Ex, I absolutely agree with you about grammar, and have said much the same to struggling writers -- in short, "It's not your story that's the problem, it's your confused grammar that's preventing us from seeing your story." I'm glad to be of the generation that had grammar beaten into our heads for 12 straight years. If I write in "the King's Anguish" I know I'm doing it. [Big Grin]

As to the passive voice thing... yep, it has its uses. The famous example is someone disclaiming responsibility for a bar brawl: "Bottles were broken. Punches were thrown." Somewhere there's a good article on using passive voice to throw focus where you want it. Trouble I see now is new writers seizing on the label and confusing it with passive (limp) prose. [Frown]

What was the question? [Confused]

Posts: 782 | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
The question I suppose is grammar is more than a hammer and tongs; grammar is the artisan's forge and rhetoric is the finishing bench.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2