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Author Topic: Chapter 2 fragment question
DebbieKW
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Rica came straight to the throne room to await word on the attack. After the quarter bells rang, she stopped wandering about and sat down on the edge of the dais with her feet on the bottom stair and her chin resting in one hand. Finally, a soldier entered to inform Rica that General Kalden was back and that her three high officials awaited her permission to enter.

---

This is the start of my chapter 2, and someone just tried to kill Rica and failed. I'm not trying to have a hook here, so I don't need feedback on that. I wanted to know if this is still clear after I made a change to the text. So, a reading comprehension test:

What do you think "the quarter bells rang" means in context?


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meg.stout
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Hi Debbie -

quote:
Rica came straight to the throne room to await word on the attack.

Is it important to have Rica coming into the throne room? Can the chapter just start with Rica already there, having waited for whatever period of time (indicate how long but something, say Rica's finished reading all the inscriptions carved in the west wall, or whatever)

quote:
After the quarter bells rang, she stopped wandering about and sat down on the edge of the dais with her feet on the bottom stair and her chin resting in one hand.

I haven't read the earlier bit, so I don't know if you've explained what quarter bells ringing signify. Is this a reference to bells signifying the passage of an addition 15 minutes, or has a quarter of a day passed? Or are the bells signalling that people are being called to 'quarters' for the night. Wide range of possibilities. If the 15 minute thing, for example, something like "The bells rang for a third time and Rica realized she had been pacing for almost an hour."

The description of Rica's pose seems awkward. I'm 90% sure what pose you are describing, but the words allow really funny alternate positions...

quote:
Finally, a soldier entered to inform Rica that General Kalden was back and that her three high officials awaited her permission to enter.

Why not have Rica experience the sensations (sounds, emotions) of the entrance of the soldier and hear the soldier's words?

Overall, this fragment seems rushed, almost summary in nature. I'm liking the world. Relax. Slow down. Take your time.


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Brendan
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I think Meg hit how I would have thought of the quarter bells - a significant time indicator but one that I do not know about. However, although I am unsure whether it is significant to the story, it is an element of setting to me, so I don't recommend taking it out.

quote:
The description of Rica's pose seems awkward.

I agree, but an easy fix would be to replace the word "with" with a comma, i.e.

After the quarter bells rang, she stopped wandering about and sat down on the edge of the dais, her feet on the bottom stair and her chin resting in one hand.

This is still a bit long, with three different subjects in the phrases. Perhaps


After the quarter bells rang, she stopped wandering about. She found a spot on the edge of the dais and sat, her feet on the bottom stair and her chin resting in one hand.

You could probably find better ways to say it.

As for the rest of the snippet, it seemed fine to me. Meg makes a statement about pacing, but I cannot tell because the snippet is so short. I think I would need more words and context in order to know whether the pace is working or not.


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InarticulateBabbler
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Since you only asked for a specific question to be answered, I will do just that:

Just from that snippet, I'd say the quarter balls either mean 15 minutes bells or the bells ring at four six-hour intervals throughout the day. That would be my guess. Yet, if I was reading this as a novel, I wouldn't try to guess; the author would either tell me (clarifying it later in the story) or it would just slip by unremembered.

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited September 01, 2007).]


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DebbieKW
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quote:
Is it important to have Rica coming into the throne room? Can the chapter just start with Rica already there, having waited for whatever period of time (indicate how long but something, say Rica's finished reading all the inscriptions carved in the west wall, or whatever)

I originally did have the chapter start with Rica in the throne room after time has already passed and her officials are about to enter. However, I felt it was important for me to establish:
1) Rica went directly to the throne room after the attack, and didn't drop by her rooms first or whatever.
2) Rica has just been rushed back to safety from the attack, but she has nothing to do while everyone else is still rushing around headlong. She's had a chance to calm down and think the attack over while everyone else is still in a frenzy.

I guess that number 1 is implied here and later, but I still do need a sentence or two to slow things down from a frenzied rush to a calm Rica. (Note: Rica wanders around when she thinks, so I want to keep that in there.)

If people think it reads better, I could re-phrase this paragraph like this: [Last paragraph is soldiers rushing her to safety toward her palace.]

quote:
Rica wandered around the throne room while she waited for word on the attack. After the quarter bells rang for a second time, she sat down on the edge of the dais with her feet on the bottom stair and her chin resting in one hand.

Finally, a soldier entered and bowed. "Your Majesty, General Kalden has returned and is ready to report. Sonru Kobri and Sonshi Jun are waiting with him."

Rica unbuckled her sword belt and took her place on her throne. "Let them enter."

The soldier went back to the antechamber. A moment later, General Kalden, Sonru Kobri, and Sonshi Jun filed in and knelt on their cushions.


The thing is, all these extra "show, don't tell" words delay the report on the attack. Are they good enough that I should keep them, anyway? It'll change the pacing, but not necessarily in a bad way.

I am re-thinking how to best describe "the pose," so future comments of "it's fine as is" or on better ways to describe it will be welcomed.


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DebbieKW
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Thanks, InarticulateBabbler. Someone who knows me well. Since I decided to respond to a critique of the whole thing, I'd also welcome your comments on which parts of the potential "revised version" work better than the original or if they still aren't working for you. Your comments are always helpful.
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InarticulateBabbler
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Remember, Debbie, you asked.

1) I think Meg had a good suggestion:

quote:

If the 15 minute thing, for example, something like "The bells rang for a third time and Rica realized she had been pacing for almost an hour."


It would clarify the question.

2)Plausibility point: I wonder why -- after she was just attacked -- she isn't guarded.

You could have established both 1) Rica went directly to the throne room and 2) she had nothing to do, with a snippet like:

The quarter bells rang for the third time since Rica had been escorted back to the throne room, informing her that most of an hour had been wasted. She looked at the guards derisively. General Kalden claimed that the guards were for her protection, but she felt like they were jailors. As she was about to assert her authority, a messenger entered...

As you know, this is just a suggestion. I, of course, have had the advantage of reading the prologue and part -- if not all -- of the first chapter.


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meg.stout
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I like the rewrite. Two comments that might speed up the pacing:

1) Why describe her pose? Why not just tell us that she is finally calm enough to sit on the edge of the dais?

2) When the three men come in, don't bother repeating the tags.


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kings_falcon
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Tee-hee. Quarter Bells means 15 minutes. I know this because I used "Bell" in mine for a 15 minute interval. Really, you would think we were channelling each other or something.

On the rewrite:

It's clear but you could probably streamline it more. I liked IB's suggestion for showing what a bell was.

I think you could delete all of the italics below.

quote:

Rica wandered around the throne room while she waited for word on the attack since the attack had just happened in the last chapter, I'm not sure you need to tell me this. Also the report is going to fill in this gap. After the quarter bells rang for a second time, she sat down on the edge of the dais with her feet on the bottom stair and her chin resting in one hand.
Finally, a soldier entered and bowed. "Your Majesty, General Kalden has returned and is ready to report. Generals Sonru Kobri and Sonshi Jun are waiting with him."

Rica unbuckled her sword belt and took her place on her throne. "Let them enter."

The soldier went back to the antechamber. A moment later, the Generals Kalden, Sonru Kobri, and Sonshi Jun filed in and knelt on their cushions.



Things like moving her sword out of the way and the guard getting the men are assumed so you don't have to tell me this.

It's clear but you might consider trimming to move the pace up a notch. The scene (once the guard comes in) is quick and tense. Let the writing be too.

Why not just say:

She sat down on the edge of the dais. With a sigh, she rested her chin on one hand.



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DebbieKW
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quote:
Really, you would think we were channelling each other or something.

*Groan* Yes, that's what "quarter bells" means. I'm really, really trying not to channel you. Really! Our stories are enough different in the (other) details that it shouldn't matter, but I do hope that we both get published so that we can capitalize on this by promoting each other or something.

I do need to have the sword removed to stage-manage it since it'll be used in a moment. The guard retreating can go. However, Kalden is the only General. See, we're not perfect at channeling!

quote:
Why not just say:

She sat down on the edge of the dais. With a sigh, she rested her chin on one hand.


Um, I could... That would really work well... But I've been trying not to use anything similar to yours that I know about ahead of time so that there won't be any legal issues about the similarities of our novels if they get published. So I'm a bit worried about using one of your suggestions word-for-word. *sigh*


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kings_falcon
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Tee-hee. I'm not worried about it. All it means is we both tuned into the same stream of the collective unconcious.

We definately need to do the book tour thing together.

But let me make this easier. Yes, you have my express permission to use any phrasing I suggest. Please use it. That goes for the "There's more at stake than mere successsion" from the query too. The express permission should get you around any issues.

Bells was an easy one. The old clocks chimed once on the quarter hour. I figured most people would get the reference. I suspect that was the same thought process you went through.

If you are going to use the sword, show me where it goes. Right now the (possibly empty) sword belt is unbuckled and then vanishes. Does she put the blade across her lap, in a sheathe hanging off the throne? Where does it go?

The "Generals" came from this line. "A moment later, General Kalden, Sonru Kobri, and Sonshi Jun . . " it made me think that all three where Generals. You could say "the men" since they'd already been introduced.

N-


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InarticulateBabbler
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quote:

The "Generals" came from this line. "A moment later, General Kalden, Sonru Kobri, and Sonshi Jun . . " it made me think that all three where Generals. You could say "the men" since they'd already been introduced.

kings_falcon, Sonru and Sonshi are titles. I've asked a similar question before.


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kings_falcon
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Ahh, grasshopper, now I understand.
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DebbieKW
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*laugh* I suppose I should have just told you they were titles and saved you the time explaining why you thought they were generals. Oh, well, I was tired.

Yes, "The old clocks chimed once on the quarter hour" was the reason I came up with "quarter bells." I'm sure other people have used that in their fantasy stories, too.

Thanks for your express permission. It turns out that I couldn't use that exact phrasing, anyway, due to sentence rhythm, but I used something very close.

Thank you for permission to use "There's more at stake than mere succession" in my query, but it doesn't work for me. You see, Rica is Queen and no one debates that. The way things work in my story, Kobri basically will never be the named ruler, and he knows it. He's second in command, though, so he can rule either through manipulation or by having the true ruler killed. He has full ruling power when no ruler is on the throne. So it really is about power, not succession.


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Wolfe_boy
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quote:
The way things work in my story, Kobri basically will never be the named ruler, and he knows it. He's second in command, though, so he can rule either through manipulation or by having the true ruler killed. He has full ruling power when no ruler is on the throne. So it really is about power, not succession.

If he has full ruling power when no one is on the throne, doesn't that make him the de facto ruler, similar to the Stewards of Gondor? Mythical swords and magical destinies aside, couldn't he just name himself ruler if there was no one left in succession? I do believe this is what happens in real life - one dynasty dies out, another takes it's place, probably out of the highest ranking people left over.

So, if Rica dies or is killed, Kobri becomes ruler. In this circumstance, it is about succession, since there is no one to succeed to the throne after Rica dies, other than Kobri. This is probably nit-picking on my part, because essentially power and succession are inextricably linked.

Jayson Merryfield


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kings_falcon
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Jayson, you have a point. But it doesn't work that way in Debbie's story.

In this world, the gods literally pick the next ruler. The problem arises when they wait almost 30 years to pick Rica. So, if Rica is killed off, Kobri has no guarantee (although a good possibliity) that he'll get to keep power. He really wants to rule through her and be the power behind the throne. She's just having none of it.


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Zero
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Bells that ring one-fourth of the time.

Or maybe bells with George Washington's face stamped onto them.

Or perhaps bells worth twenty-five cents a piece.

Actually I think of quarter-bells to mean the fighting has ceased. Like the expression "no quarter" which, I've always assumed, means "no mercy" or "no regard" that they will press the battle until the enemy is obliterated.


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