posted
I shall tell you of Enniorhon. A man that changed the face of the world before he turned thirty. A man both honored and feared by his own people. Honored for being the most skilled and fearless warrior of all ages. And feared because after seeing him in action many refused to believe he is a man at all. I have heard them call him many names. Scourge of Manohites, Wrath of Haru and The Seventh Dragon are the most poetic of his nicknames. I have known him most of his life. I had walked with him and seen him do combat many times. In my presence he has fought over a hundred battles. He emerged victorious every time, not withstanding the ultimate Battle for Manohite Valley where he was shot through five times and still kept fighting. No one –
[This message has been edited by First Assistant (edited December 12, 2007).]
posted
Hmm. . .this tale seems like something that one would hear a storyteller speak, but it would be more intersting if we got to know the storyteller before the story takes place. . . either that or give us more of the personality of Ennoirhon, because as of right now I really don't care about the story you are telling.
posted
I think this is too general. Give us specifics. Take us through a battle and give details of the battle and show us something that is extraordinary this man has done. As it is, telling us he fought in over 100 battles is just not credible. You have not established his talents/ability to do this so it is very hard to believe.
"...where he was shot through five times..." Shot through where? After "through" I expected to see "the torso" or something like that. Why not just "...where he was shot five times..." Although again this is not very credible in that the character has not really been established.
"...and seen him do battle many times..." Are they both in battle? One is a spectator? They both lived through all this? Again hard to believe. This is a nit, but "do" sounds a little off to me. Why not just the simple "...and seen him in battle many times."
posted
I find it hard to describe everything you asked for in first 13 lines. Especially if I keep getting censored.
The guessing that you two did... That is precisely what I want my reader to do when he begins reading so he/she will keep reading to see if they are correct. Of course then you must surprise the reader by making the story grander than his/her predictions.
posted
Being 'shot through' is a phrase I have seen in english books. It sounds a bit archaic, but that's precisely why I like it. You don't want your narrator to sound modern if the story takes place in non-modern setting.
Posts: 1271 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
OK, let me try that again. Let's see how you like it now... ________________________________________________________________
I shall tell you of Enniorhon. No man has ever been described by more tales than he. Yet all these stories were concocted by those who knew him not. It is time I tell a tale of my own for it is I who knew him and knew him well. Or did I? It is said that a man who knows no pain or fear is no man at all. If this holds fast then he truly was not one. But I know he greaved for his wife for I have also lost my beloved and I have seen this same look in a mirror. For such mighty a hero he had sired few children. A single daughter is all that he has left behind. Such a fierce warrioress she has become. Yet not nearly as fierce as he was. In truth, he had no equal. That much the tales are true. He truly was The Seventh Dragon of Sayhan. And I? I am only Eleon
[This message has been edited by First Assistant (edited December 13, 2007).]
posted
What about taking all this aside and pushing it into a prologue? Then starting the story out with actual events?
Posts: 207 | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
It sounds like you have quite a story to tell, but to get me interested, I want to experience what the character is experiencing, not hear a distant description (narration) of your story.
You are writing first person, from Eleon Namot's perspective. I would be interested in a beginning that starts when he met Enniorhon, or when Enniorhon came to him to tell him his wife had died, or some other event. Bring these people to life, help me to meet them and look them in the eye, as it were.
posted
"What about taking all this aside and pushing it into a prologue? Then starting the story out with actual events?"
IMO THAT is an excellent suggestion. The beginning reads rather prologue-like as it is. Put your MC in a battle situation, or at the least a situation where we are drawn in and get to know him through his experiences and actions and how others relate to him. Right now I feel like an observer, and only an observer with no emotional reaction to what I'm being told.
posted
I didn't like the first version. I do like the second version, and would read on.
I think you could put it into a prologue, but I don't think you have to. Too me, this paragraph sets up the how and why of the first person POV, something most authors tend to ignore. I guess to me it would depend on how you choose to go about telling your story, whether you're going to keep the narrative perspective, or switch into third person.
posted
First, let me say that I am personally offended by the fact that my second beginning got censored. This time I wrote TWELVE lines to make sure this would not happen again and it did. Either someone has decided to anger me for fun or this is the work of an automated censor system which in my opinion has nothing to do in a forum such as this. Therefore I have decided I will not post my work here anymore. I will put out a topic that I have something to be read if someone wants it. Whole, a chapter, a page. Definitely not 1.8 paragraphs as is obviously a custom here.
Now, to other subjects...
I believe that a narrator's POV is best in the case of this story. Going straight to the action would be far too sudden and violent for the reader to be able to get in the story. A narrator gives you comfort and describes everything that needs to be told with patience for that is his job. Grabbing the reader by the hand and pulling him/her on a speeding train... Not my style.
The whole story of Enniorhon is supposed to be seen through the eyes of various narrators. One of them is Namot, the Eleon or king of Tarium which is a neighbouring country to Enniorhon's home Sayhan. The fact that one of his closest compatriots was a king of a foreign country suggests that in this era rank of nobility was not important.
If I go straight to the action then the reader gets the impression that fighting is the most important thing in my story. It's not. It's about surviving in a hostile world, produced by a meeting of two completely different cultures. One of them is urbane (think ancient Rome), the other barbaric (think Huns). To fight the barbarian they had to become barbaric in some respect. Enniorhon was the supreme urbane barbarian and as a consequence he came to be a legend. How he has managed to do this is what everyone in his life is trying to find out.
[This message has been edited by MartinV (edited December 13, 2007).]
posted
There's no need to take the editing personally. It happens to all of us. The best measure of whether you have 13 lines or not (as defined on this forum) is to ensure that all your text fits into the little box without scrolling. There have been times when I've misjudged, but, whatever. It's to protect our copyrights, so I'm down with whatever KDW (or her assistants) decide. Posts: 2185 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Martin V, if you click on the edit icon (the rightmost icon to the right of your name) on the posts with your 13 lines in them, you will see your post inside a text box with a scroll bar on the right side of the box.
If you move the scroll bar so that the beginning of your 13 lines is at the top of the text box, the end of your 13 lines should be at the bottom of the text box.
When someone posts their 13 lines, I or my assistants do exactly that (click on the edit button and move the scroll bar so that the beginning of the 13 lines is at the top of the text box). If there is anything more than 13 lines, it goes beyond the text box space, and we have to move the scroll bar to see it. That is where we cut the 13 lines so it is really 13 lines, and we do this to every 13 lines that is posted, so it is fair to everyone.
I see from your bio that you are from Slovenia. I have never visited your country so I do not know what happens there, but I do know that in some parts of Eastern Europe censorship has been a common problem in the past, may still be so.
There is no censorship at Hatrack or any Western discussion forum that I know of. I suggest you read the FAQ and other items in the 'Please Read Here First' threads to understand the reasons for the first 13 limits, and maybe lurk for a while to see how things work. (Flames and libels are deleted, but we all agree to allow that when we sign up. Keeps the place civilised. Mostly.)
It's possible I suppose that in Slovenia stories of the long, patient structure you propose are read and enjoyed. But the usual pattern in cultures where English is the first language (This is an international forum and people from the USA, UK, Canada, Australia and other such places are the predominant contributors) is to leap straight into the action, more or less. That means that stories will be critiqued in order to help them sell in English language cultures. It does not mean leaping straight into battle, necessarily, because the reader will probably want to know why they're fighting, and this is part of the art of course: to draw the reader in by making the immediate action interesting and with motive.
As Annepin says, there's no point in arguing with critiquers. They tell you how the story appears to them. If the book were in a bookshop you would not be able to argue back, to tell them how the book works. It must stand by itself. We respond to crits by listening, taking account of the crits that help us to see how our story could be misunderstood or might bore the reader, and discard the rest - politely, without arguing.
posted
Trust me, Kathleen, I did exactly what you just suggested both times as I posted my opening. If I edit my text now when it is hindered, I have one or even two empty lines in the text box. Would anyone dare to explain this fact to me because I'm confused. I get 13 lines to fill and then I'm punished for using them.
TaleSpinner, just for the record, Slovenia is not in Eastern Europe. True, it's former regime was socialism, but there is quite a difference between that and Soviet communism. The word censoring was the only one that came to me because when I'm angry my creativity drops drastically and I couldn't come up with a better word. Perhaps I would use the word 'shearing' now.
I wonder how many times should I post the beginning of this novel for me to get a positive criticism...
posted
If you are using FIREFOX for some reason it gives you text box one line bigger than Internet Explorer. Therefore when you post either do it in IE or, if you use Mozilla Firefox, leave an empty line at the bottom.
I pointed out this to She Who Must Be Obeyed but forgot to mention it to everyone else.
posted
This time a little bit more action-packed beginning. Let's see how you Westerners like it now. TWELVE lines, Kathleen. TWELVE. _________________________________________________________________
The moment our ship's belly scratched the sand beneath, I heard a man at my shoulder groan. He fell to the floor with an arrow in his eye. A swarm of arrows already screamed among us. We all hit the planks to save our skins: soldiers, marines and mapmakers alike. My hand found a great tower shield which I held above me to shelter me from the terrible hail of iron. The sound of piercing wood all around paralyzed us all. We were pinned down, helpless to do anything but wait for our own extinction. A strong hand took hold of my shield and easily wrenched it from my grasp even as I strained to keep it. The sun hit my eyes. I saw a warrior towering above me, a shield in each hand, standing firm in the hellish rain. He uttered not a single sound. It was Enniorhon.
posted
OK, I now see the source of the problem. The text box got narrower as I added comments because a slider appeared on the right side. Obviously I must send the text and comments in a separate message next time.
Posts: 1271 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Your still a bit over thirteen lines! You are doing twelve SENTENCES, but it isn't about sentences...
It is about how much text you can fit INTO THE POSTING BOX WHEN YOU POST. You can have comments before and after on the same post, but your story segment should not exceed the dimensions of the text box.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited December 14, 2007).]
posted
The 13 LINES are the FIRST PAGE of a properly formatted manuscript in the United States (where paper is 8.5 inches wide by 11 inches long).
Because editors receive so many stories, some of them only allow a writer the first page (13 lines) to "hook" them. If the first 13 lines don't make the editor want to turn that first page to read more, the editor will just put the story in the SASE and send it back to the writer with a rejection letter.
That, and the protection of electronic rights, are the main reasons for the 13 line rule.
Because we know that people in other places (like Europe) use a different size paper, we programmed the text box to be 13 lines long and 65 characters wide so the rule will be the same for everyone.
If you look at the text box before you put anything in it, you can see that the scroll bar has a space already reserved for it, but it's very faint. So while the box looks wider without the scroll bar, it really isn't.
posted
I would like to say "Thank you!" to those of you who have tried to help explain things to Martin V.
I want you all to know that it truly warms the cockles of my heart to see such effort made to help another writer. And I really appreciate your support on this forum.
There is a really wonderful group of people here on the Hatrack River Writers Workshop, and I'm very glad to know you all.
posted
By the way, Martin V, I don't usually read the 13 lines because I don't comment on them, as a rule. (There's no way I could be fair about that and comment on everyone's 13 lines.)
But I will say that from what you have written this last time, I think your writing is vivid and strong.
Most important, though, I can say that I, as a reader (and probably as an editor), would turn the page.
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited December 14, 2007).]
posted
Yes! This is much more appealing to me. Definitely the right direction, IMHO. It could use more polishing, but I hesitate to critique your work at this point.
In the Please Read Here First area of the forum, it says that when you post your fragment, you should say what you want:
3--ask people to do one or more of the following with regard to your 13 lines: a--just tell you if it made them want to read more b--give you feedback on just the 13 lines you posted c--offer to read more (which you will then email to them) and comment on it for you
Do you want feedback? If yes, you'll get lots of opinions; its up to you what is useful. That's what we're all about.
posted
The second version is way more compelling than the first because it's a vivid introduction to Enniorhon and his world, and promises a fast moving story that will keep the reader turing the pages.
posted
I feel the need to apologize to Kathleen for my harsh words the other day. The thing is I had a pretty rough week and I wanted to post a fraction of the story that is constantly rolling in my mind so people would say it sounds interesting. Instead, this matter finally blew my top off. I regret that now.
Thank you everyone for putting up with me and for giving me a chance. I will cherish that.
posted
This second version is much improved, IMO. You have my attention and interest.
The only part that bothered me was "the sun hit my eyes." Then in the next sentence, "...standing firm in the hellish rain." This was distracting to me as if the rain is really hellish, the sky must be heavily overcast - and if it is overcast, where is the sun coming from?
posted
I would like to explain your misunderstanding, nitewriter. The narrator covered himself with a shield to protect himself from arrows. He also blocked the sun with it. Then the hero took it from him (he was about to jump off the ship and assault the archers single handedly, but that's in the second 13 lines - and the sun suddenly came to his vision - it blinded him for a moment. As his vision returned, he saw the figure of the hero standing above him. Phrase 'hellish rain' is refering to the arrows - hence the word 'hellish'. I have already used the word hail so I wanted something else this time.
Posts: 1271 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
While I understood the "hellish rain" line correctly, it's probably worth pointing out once more that when a book is on the shelves, you cannot explain to people why their misunderstanding was in error. If as many as one person out of ten thinks that rain here means "water droplets from the sky," then you've got a problem that needs to be addressed. Remember the old saying:
quote:It's not enough for a writer to write so that he can be understood; he must write so that he cannot be misunderstood.
That's why there's no point arguing with critiques.
That aside, I also think this version is improved over the first two.
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and the sun suddenly came to his vision - it blinded him for a moment. As his vision returned, he saw the figure of the hero standing above him. Phrase 'hellish rain' is refering to the arrows - hence the word 'hellish'. I have already used the word hail so I wanted something else this time.
