Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Fragments and Feedback for Books » First 13 lines, Blue Sand Dream, for comment

   
Author Topic: First 13 lines, Blue Sand Dream, for comment
Chmelan
New Member
Member # 11142

 - posted      Profile for Chmelan   Email Chmelan         Edit/Delete Post 
Neela Sims stretched as the pulsing warm water of the shower eased her sore shoulder muscles and precious wafts of steam enveloped her in a private cocoon. Last night’s workout had been particularly intense, evoking memories of early recruit training, when she, like all new Global Disease Defense Corps members, had been tested to her limits. What a luxury that had been, just five years ago, to practice drills and not have to worry if they would do any good. She could feel her neck and shoulders tighten again as she thought of the day ahead.
A clicking in the faucet signaled the end of the allotted water supply and Neela heaved a sigh of frustration as reality coalesced around her. “Tongga, override.”
“Not possible.” The deep voice was pleasant but firm.

Posts: 3 | Registered: Mar 2019  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jay Greenstein
Member
Member # 10615

 - posted      Profile for Jay Greenstein   Email Jay Greenstein         Edit/Delete Post 
Okay, take a deep breath, this may sting. It's not related to talent or good/bad writing, but it is serious news.

First. You've written this as an essay, fact-based and author-centric. You, the narrator, are explaining what's happening in the scene you visualize. And because you are, when you read it back while editing, it works perfectly. Every line acts as a pointer to the scene unfolding in your mind. And because you already know the story, the situation in this scene, and the person in it, it works. You can even hear the emotion resonating in the voice of the narrator.

But...can the reader? No. Do they have access to your intent for how the scene is to be taken? Again no. The problem is that we're not with her in the shower, feeling the warmth. We're with someone talking about that situation. So for the reader, who doesn't yet know who we are as a person, where we are, and what's going on, every line acts as a pointer to the scene unfolding in your mind. And since you're not there to clarify...

Look at the opening, not as yourself, but as a reader who knows only what the words to any given point say, and has only what the words suggest to them, based on their background and needs.
quote:
Neela Sims stretched as the pulsing warm water of the shower eased her sore shoulder muscles and precious wafts of steam enveloped her in a private cocoon.
Here, you're way over-specifying. You tell us what she's doing, and let us know she has sore muscles. That's needed information to add context. But everyone who reads this knows what a shower is like. Odds are, they took one on the day they read this. Why waste words explaining the rest? All that does is to slow the narrative (and confuse. I've taken thousands of showers, and have never been enveloped with steam like a cocoon, or felt that steam was "precious). And that matters, because the fewer words the faster it reads. The faster it reads the greater the impact.
quote:
Last night’s workout had been particularly intense, evoking memories of early recruit training, when she, like all new Global Disease Defense Corps members, had been tested to her limits
This is an info-dump, pure and simple. She had an intense workout. Fine. But given that we don't know who we are or what's going on, why does a reader care what the workout reminded her of? She's in the shower, and bit sore. This line tells us why she's sore. But she's our avatar, your protagonist. And, it's her story, not a history book or a report.

Is she living the story or are you, someone we can neither see nor hear, talking about her as a sort of lecture or synopsis? If the latter, there's a problem because your reader is seeking an emotional experience, as her, not an informational experience. If the former, you have a problem because she's not thinking about what the workout made her think about during the event. So this is you, not her. She's thinking about how good the shower feels. And since you are talking about her as if you're there, why isn't she asking you who you are, and who you're talking to?

The short version: You're presenting it as if it's a chronicle of events, with authorial intrusions explaining as necessary. And that's what's called "telling." Problem is, as I mentioned, the reader expects to be made to live the story as the protagonist, in real-time. But in all the years of schooling (mine too) no one ever told us that the writing technique we learned was, as this is, fact-based and author-centric. And that's a nonfiction writing approach.

And because you, like pretty much everyone else, aren't aware that we leave our school years exactly as qualified to write fiction as to design a bridge, you're using the tools you own. That makes perfect sense, and explains why the rejection rate for submissions is around 99.9%. We can't, after all, use the tool we're not aware exists—which is why I said this isn't about talent or good/bad writing. Change the situation by adding the emotion-based and character-centric tricks of writing fiction—in other words train your writing talent, and you have as good a chance of success as any other hopeful writer.

Obviously, this is not what you were hoping to hear when you posted this piece. Who would? But on the other hand, think about this:

You, me, and everyone you know, have been buying nothing but professionally written, and produced, fiction, since you began reading. And that's what our readers expect from us. Given that, it makes sense to spend some time, and a few coins, acquiring the specialized knowledge of what our medium mandates and precludes, and picking up the tricks of the trade that publishers, and readers, expect us to make use of.

And here's the good news. If you truly are meant to be a writer the learning will be fun, and, your protagonist will become both your your co-writer and adviser, which makes the act of writing a lot more fun for you and the reader.

And, since pretty much everyone faces this problem on the way to publication, it's more a rite of passage then a disaster.

So dig into the tricks the pros take for granted. A good place to begin is the local library's fiction writing section. There, you'll find the views of successful writers, publishing pros, and noteworthy teachers.

My personal recommendation, as it usually is, is to seek the names, Dwight Swain, Jack Bickham, or Debra Dixon on the cover for the nuts and bolts issues of creating scenes that sing to the reader. Donald Maass and Sol Stein focus on stylistic issues.

But whatever you decide on, take your time. The last thing you want is to read a point, nod acceptance, and a week later forget you read it. So take time to stop and think about a point when it's introduced, and how it relates to your needs. Practice it till it becomes like tying your shoe, something you do without thought because it feels like the right way.

Right now, because your schooldays writing has been practiced till it feels intuitive, any attempt to change will feel wrong, so you need to address that as you add those new tools.

But whatever you do, hang in there and keep on writing. It never gets easier, but after a bit, you become confused on a higher level, and the ratio of crap to gold changes for the better—which is the best we can hope for, because no matter how well you write, someone will read it and blow a raspberry.

Posts: 263 | Registered: Dec 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
An individual reminisces while in a shower.

The narrator summarizes and explains -- tells -- Neela Sims' back story, as if the writer sketches a raw-draft outline of remote past events to inform readers of what came before, rather than Sims' now and forward dramatic experiences. All tell, some given through thought discourse, when show's reality imitation is prose's forte. One, Sims is by herself, cannot or does not interact dramatically with others, nor the setting. No event depicted except self-reflections in a shower: stuck in a bathtub and stalled interminably.

The several remembered events are each occasions for shown in-scene developments at the moment of their occurrences and of several pages length or more each. Plus, several clunky punctuation, diction, and syntax shortfalls throughout, methods common to casual journalism and technical writing, though deprecated for all composition.

First sentence, for example, is a fused run-on:

"Neela Sims stretched _as_ the pulsing warm water of the shower eased her sore shoulder muscles[,] and precious wafts of steam enveloped her in a private cocoon."

"as" is a correlation conjunction, not a coordination conjunction by itself. "as" coordination use invariably skews causation logic, inverts and confuses chronology. The shower pulses ease Sims' sore muscles then she stretches next, a not-simultaneous mistake. Those events are sequential and, as given, are reversed.

The third clause adds yet another idea out of order. The otherwise independent clause, but for the conjunction "and," takes comma separation. The comma's absence is a sure sign of a run-on train-wreck sentence.

Steam rises, shower pulses, Sims stretches, each its own idea and sentence. No force, drama, or emotional movement, though, for those nor the fragment overall.

Twice more "as" awkward uses and consequent fused run-ons. The third occasion again is a three-clause train wreck, and a missed comma.

"A clicking in the faucet signaled the end of the allotted water supply[,] and Neela heaved a sigh of frustration _as_ reality coalesced around her."

Perhaps those convenient casual composition habits want adjustment for prose drama's sakes.

The limited shower supply allotment is a possible dramatic event worth start focus, one last-straw, final-lap event Sims could interact with and react to; that is, express an attitude about the parsimonious water allotment and leadership who deigns so, thus, characterizes her true personality and nature and develops dramatic introductions, a bridge scene, that is. Then lead into the whys and wherefores events of what the novel is truly about, and the why, when, where, what, and how tangibles of a medical corps grunt's larger-than-life, life-altering, life-defining-event transformations.

Blue Sand Dreams looks pretty though lacks titles' dramatic engagement appeals. A saying from Damon Knight, Creating Short Fiction, about daydream narratives' lackluster drama, added to no daydream narratives, also known as self-surrogacy, writer surrogacy, and author surrogacy's self-idealization and self-efficacy -- night dreams, yes (Nightmares)! Crises that shape moral maturation and cancel personal growth are the stuff of prose. Consider the dream symbolisms of sand: drought, waste, wasteland, wasted time, and more online about sand dream symbolism.

//Blue Night Dream Sand//? //Blue Sunday Dunes Microbia// a disease dystopia? Medical thriller, (medical psychological and visceral horror about communicable diseases, about social communication of crises)?

I would not read further as an engaged reader.

[ March 29, 2019, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Chmelan
New Member
Member # 11142

 - posted      Profile for Chmelan   Email Chmelan         Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for your careful reading and thoughtful feedback, it is very helpful. I have just started, and am struggling to grasp the third person-limited viewpoint. Jay, I especially appreciated the clear guidance and recommended reading. Extrinsic, thanks for calling my attention to the syntax, and for picking up that the limited shower supply allotment (which is self-inflicted, by the way) is what I was hoping to convey.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Mar 2019  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
Third-person, limited, close narrative distance is the more difficult narrative point of view of forty-two Damon Knight charts in Creating Short Fiction. The type occasions a metaphoric substitution for first-person close though third person's selective omniscience, omnipresence, and maybe omnipotence flexibility. The type also is the dominant narrative point of view for novels anymore, favored for the close, intimate, personal, and emotional appeals of immediate viewpoint agonist perceptions and experiences, sans narrator filters.

A key access method for the type is a narrator, all but absent and invisible, portrays the received reflections of a viewpoint agonist's internal perceptions, stimuli, attitudes, and responses, the agonist looks outward and inward from within a narrative's milieu, versus other third-person types' narrator looks in from outside a milieu.

A gamut of subtle methods distinguish the type, not least of which are ample emphasis for agonist perspective external stimuli received reflections. C.J. Cherryh is a master of the type and methods, Cuckoo's Egg in particular, two, by turns, viewpoint personas: Duun and Thorn. Albeit the novel starts from a bridge scene back story event interlude sequence and from a remote narrator looks in report.

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
EmmaSohan
Member
Member # 10917

 - posted      Profile for EmmaSohan   Email EmmaSohan         Edit/Delete Post 
Welcome to Hatrack. I like the character, I like the situation, I keep reading.

Like Jay and extrinsic, I am not fond of the writing. To me:

The pulsing warm shower eased her sore shoulder muscles; precious wafts of steam became her cocoon.

Did I leave out any important words? Assuming you keep that, but I liked the mood in it. Nice on that. And readers differ, I can just tell you my impression.

Then maybe try to straighten out time a little?

Posts: 407 | Registered: Apr 2018  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jay Greenstein
Member
Member # 10615

 - posted      Profile for Jay Greenstein   Email Jay Greenstein         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
...the limited shower supply allotment (which is self-inflicted, by the way) is what I was hoping to convey.
If we knew where we are, and what purpose that limitation served, it might convey it. When entering any scene, the reader needs grounding in where we are, who we are,and what's going on, if they're to have context to make sense of the prose

This is a good example of why presenting the story in the words of an external narrator so often has problems. You know her situation as you write it, so what's obvious to you, but necessary to the reader, is often missed.

And as that external narrator, you're focusing on events and plot-points. But had you been focused on what has her attention, the water, and how it behaves is irrelevant, because she's focused on its effect on her, and on what matters most to her in that moment.

And as someone external, you're thinking visually, and describing that matters to the observer. But fair is fair. It's her story. And you're about to make her life hell. So focus on what matters to her, and what it makes her do, and why. That places us in her viewpoint.

This article shows one very powerful way of doing that. And if it makes sense, you might want to pick up that Dwight Swain book I mentioned. It, and the others are filled with things like that.

Posts: 263 | Registered: Dec 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Silkienne Dvora
Member
Member # 11090

 - posted      Profile for Silkienne Dvora   Email Silkienne Dvora         Edit/Delete Post 
These folks schooled me heavily as I'm a nonfiction writer trying, desperately, to make the transition. I found that if you can write it in first person, get into your character's mind rather than show the person from the outside, that helps a bit. Third person isn't a big step, it is a matter of changing the verbs and pronouns.

I want to know who she is. The best way of doing that is to put her into the hell she's about to experience and let us explore it with her. Find the moment where she says, "Oh ****!" and go from there. We don't need to know who she is before that moment because we're getting to know her. Simply put the ingredients into the pot, turn it up to hot, and stir. She'll tell you what she does as the water heats up.

Posts: 34 | Registered: Jan 2019  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jay Greenstein
Member
Member # 10615

 - posted      Profile for Jay Greenstein   Email Jay Greenstein         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I found that if you can write it in first person, get into your character's mind rather than show the person from the outside,
Assume you're a reader. Is there any difference in the feeling of being the character between:

Neela Sims stretched as the pulsing warm water of the shower eased her sore shoulder muscles and precious wafts of steam enveloped her in a private cocoon.
and
I stretched as the pulsing warm water of the shower eased my sore shoulder muscles and precious wafts of steam enveloped me in a private cocoon. ?

Person doesn't matter. In both cases, the narrator isn't experiencing the event, they're talking about it, and explaining the effect. But do we need the words, "of the shower?" They come from the narrator. Won't the reader be pretty sure it's a shower by the pulsing warm water?
quote:
I want to know who she is.
The reader doesn't. They're not looking to learn about her. They want to feel as if they're living the adventure moment-by-moment. They want to—like her—focus on what needs to be done in the moment she calls now. They want to think about her problem, and how she should approach them.

Our medium is serial, and slow, compared to vision and sound. So to tell the story at speed, we need to make every word move the plot, develop character, or meaningfully set the scene (hopefully, more than one of those at a time). Sol Stein put it well with, “In sum, if you want to improve your chances of publication, keep your story visible on stage and yourself mum.”

Another quote I favor is by James Schmits: “Don’t inflict the reader with irrelevant background material—get on with the story.”

My point is that yes, we need to get to know her, but not through explanation and info-dump. If her most noteworthy characteristic is her kindness let the reader decide that through her actions and her treatment of others.

Take an opening like:

The door swung closed behind her, cutting off the icy wind and bringing a sigh of relief. Likely, the stay would be short, but at least the next few minutes would be warm. That was something.

In the first sentence the reader learns that our protagonist is female, uncomfortably cold, and has been out in a windy day when she doesn't want to be out. We learn that she's coming inside, relieved to be in a warm place, but doesn't expect to be there long, which sets her mood for the reader.

And most of that is learned incidentally, as we place her at the doorway to somewhere warm. If we can use implication instead of explanation, that's best.

The next line further fills in the detail with:

Ann inhaled, savoring the aroma. Fast food or not, it smelled positively wonderful.

And with this we learn where she is, that she's pretty much broke, and hungry, which tells us her current status, and that it takes place in modern times. As I read this, I realized that I screwed up in writing it, in that I have her savoring the aroma before the reader learns what she's sniffing. I should have placed a period after the second word and dropped the next three, for: "Ann inhaled. Fast food or not, it smelled positively wonderful." Those three removed words served only to slow the narrative.

Be that as it may, the sequence ends with:

Not enough for a burger. Maybe a small order of fries?

The reader has been oriented as to where they are in time and space, who they are, and what's going on. And that will provide context for her decision to put thoughts of food behind and head for the counter to ask for a job. And as that conversation takes place, incidentally, we will learn the things you want to present, as enrichment to necessary lines.

Make sense?

Posts: 263 | Registered: Dec 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grumpy old guy
Member
Member # 9922

 - posted      Profile for Grumpy old guy   Email Grumpy old guy         Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, I so disagree.

Phil.

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grumpy old guy
Member
Member # 9922

 - posted      Profile for Grumpy old guy   Email Grumpy old guy         Edit/Delete Post 
You nearly had me engaged. The first sentence, despite grammar errors, was drawing me in. I could feel the hot water, and both see and feel the damp steam. Anyone who’s had a piping hot shower in a cold room would; you can barely see your own hand in front of your face. Poor choice of simile though; cocoon, really? It’s the fact I can see the image in my memory which makes it so engaging. Then, you lost me.

Don’t worry, it was the same rookie mistake every new writer of prose makes--the Info-Dump. I’ve done it myself. Check this out:
quote:
Infodump
Large chunk of indigestible expository matter intended to explain the background situation. Info-dumps can be covert, as in fake newspaper or “Encyclopedia Galactica” articles, or overt, in which all action stops as the author assumes center stage and lectures. Info-dumps are also known as “expository lumps.” The use of brief, deft, inoffensive info-dumps is known as “kuttnering,” after Henry Kuttner. When information is worked unobtrusively into the story’s basic structure, this is known as “heinleining.”

Courtesy of sfwa's Turkey City Lexicon.

There is no need to interrupt the natural narrative flow to get in a bit of background information. Cause and effect takes care of that: Shower, dry off, get dressed (dress uniform or fatigues?), a pause to stare at the single medal ribbon on her left breast, memories come flooding in. You get the gist. Such a natural flow gets the information into the reader’s head without interrupting the exploration of both setting and character.

Let me give your submission a quick edit--nothing added.

Neela Sims stretched as the pulsing warm water of the shower eased her sore shoulder muscles and precious wafts of steam enveloped her in a private cocoon. A clicking in the faucet signaled the end of the allotted water supply and Neela heaved a sigh of frustration as reality coalesced around her. “Tongga, override.”

“Not possible.” The deep voice was pleasant but firm
.

As you can see, the Info-Dump is a major distraction.

Hope this helps.

Phil.

[ April 01, 2019, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MerlionEmrys
Member
Member # 11024

 - posted      Profile for MerlionEmrys   Email MerlionEmrys         Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Grumpy's disagreement.

Person most definitely matters.


Anything that is 3rd person, no matter how close, technically has an outside narrator. First person does not-at that point the character is the narrator. In 3rd, even if it's close and the narrator has taken on aspects of the character's voice, it is still external.

I have never heard otherwise until the last five months or so.

Likewise, if you're writing in past tense, you're not in the now, at least not entirely.

The only way to be moment to moment with no external narrator I am aware of is first person, present tense, like the Hunger Games.

Further, not every story is meant to be a character study anyway, and while I'll agree that a large number of readers of many-not all, but many types of stories and even some that aren't specifically character stories-are going to want to connect to a character somewhat, I don't think that somehow feeling you "are" the character is a requisite for many people.

Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MerlionEmrys
Member
Member # 11024

 - posted      Profile for MerlionEmrys   Email MerlionEmrys         Edit/Delete Post 
Also, directly on topic, I like the first 13. Seems very classic sci fi in tone and voice to me.

If it were a short story I'd say maybe a little more idea of what's going to happen wouldn't hurt, but for a novel, while what hints we get of the type of story aren't super interesting to me personally, I like the writing and feel a connection to the character.

Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jay Greenstein
Member
Member # 10615

 - posted      Profile for Jay Greenstein   Email Jay Greenstein         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Anything that is 3rd person, no matter how close, technically has an outside narrator.
So does first person, when presented as this was, because in both cases, the person talking about the situation is someone not on the scene. The protagonist is living it, and focused on that matters to her in that shower, in her moment of now. She's not looking as steam clouds, she's facing the wrong way for that, and sees them every time she showers, so it's commonplace and ignored. Only an outside observer, talking about her focuses on the visuals of the scene.

Wearing a wig and makeup to pretend to be the protagonist, recalling the events at some unknown time after the events, doesn't magically change telling to showing. The first person narrator in this piece lives at a different time and place from the one living the story, and cannot appear on stage with the protagonist—not and have the protagonist seem real. A story in first person is told in the viewpoint of the one living it, not an external narrator explaining the action.

Remember, while we can hear emotion in the voice of the protagonist, either via a tag, or knowledge of their mind-state, we cannot here anything in the voice of the narrator but what's suggested by the punctuation and what's inherent to the chosen words. So the narrator should never appear in the scene. In the words of Sol Stein: “In sum, if you want to improve your chances of publication, keep your story visible on stage and yourself mum.”

If you say, "He headed to the garage to get his car and bring it around front," it's a report, not the protagonist living the scene. The one living the scene is walking to the garage, thinking about what matters to them, not the detail of the walk. And that—what matters enough to the protagonist to react to—is where the story lies.

Does changing the sentence to "I headed to the garage to get my car and bring it around front," change the line from 100% telling to showing? No, because "person" is used only by the narrator. For the one living the story—as it is for us in life—it's always first person present tense as we live the events. For the character on the way to the garage it might be something like, "As he walked to the garage Herman thought over Elie's words. Was he making a mistake by taking the job? It was a..."

There are reasons for using one person over the other, but they're not based on getting closer or further from the protagonist. And if the character has no thought meaningful to the plot, character-development, or scene-setting, you handle it by having him say, "I'll get the car and meet you out front."

Life is lived in real time. Only an outsider can condense time and report events in overview. And who cares what person an outsider uses? They're neither in the story nor in the scene.

Posts: 263 | Registered: Dec 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
For prose, third-person, close narrative distance, selective omniscient access limited to one viewpoint persona, is a metaphor for first-person; simple-past tense is a metaphor for simple-present tense. Either or both per narrative succeed to variable degrees, and occasion more narrative point of view person-tense auxiliary variance, selective omniscience-omnipresence flexibility, and "objectiveness" than first-person, simple-present tense counterparts, the writing and the reading thereof. See Seymour Chatman, Story and Discourse, 1978; Wayne Booth, The Rhetoric of Fiction, 1961, and A Rhetoric of Irony, 1974.

Chatman observes the dramatis personae of narratives include real writer, implied writer, narrator, [viewpoint personae,] narratee (audience targeted), implied reader, and real reader. Audience and reader are performers of a dramatic work, too. The acrobatic metaphor performances of third-person, close, limited, simple-past are sublime.

[ April 02, 2019, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Grumpy old guy
Member
Member # 9922

 - posted      Profile for Grumpy old guy   Email Grumpy old guy         Edit/Delete Post 
So, Jay, you don't notice what's going on around you? I notice the steam in the shower; not all of the time but sometimes. I also notice it's taste and smell. I inhabit a wonderful world of sensation. Don't you ever notice it?

Characters are not real people, they do what we need them to do, think what we need them to think and say what we need them to say.

The now is what we need it to be. I might also point out that people read books for a number of reasons: for some it's all about the story, for others, it's the characters they really want. Each writer to their own self be true.

Phil.

[ April 02, 2019, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MerlionEmrys
Member
Member # 11024

 - posted      Profile for MerlionEmrys   Email MerlionEmrys         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Characters are not real people, they do what we need them to do, think what we need them to think and say what we need them to say.

The now is what we need it to be. I might also point out that people read books for a number of reasons: for some it's all about the story, for others, it's the characters they really want. Each writer to their own self be true.

This. So very much this. And it does my heart good to hear someone else say these things for a change.


quote:
The first person narrator in this piece
There is no first person narrator in this piece, it is third person.


quote:
A story in first person is told in the viewpoint of the one living it, not an external narrator explaining the action.
Exactly. This is why person is more than just pronouns and why anything written in 3rd person, even close, has an external narrator.


Fiction is narrative and by definition a narrative has a narrator. In third person of any kind, this narrator is external to the character, though in closer forms of third person the narrator tends to take on aspects of the voice of the character in question.
In first person, the character is the narrator.
But they are still a narrator, because narrative is also, by nature, a report.
It is telling.
The information about what is going on still must be conveyed to the reader in some way. Even in first person, the character is still telling the story, reporting what they see, hear, think and feel. Even in first person present tense, there is a distance or delay between what is happening and the reader's receiving of it-the character/narrator still says "I/Me/My" and is reporting the events-just as they happen, rather than from some theoretical future time that nobody pays attention to, as in past tense.

The only way I can think of to maybe really eliminate this would be some sort of stream of consciousness type of thing, but it would pretty much have to be limited to thoughts and feelings because the moment anything outside the character's mind is described or mentioned, you've got I/Me/My, you have narrative/report/telling.


Most of the fiction I've read in my life was, as far as I remember, some species of 3rd person, in past tense.
First person is not uncommon, again in past tense.

The only things I can remember reading, right offhand, in first person present tense (and really the only in present tense at all though there may be others I didn't notice or don't remember) are "The Hunger Games" and "Simon VS the Homo Sapiens Agenda" (both "young adult" titles-that doesn't mean much to me, but to some it might.)


Now certainly, trends lean strongly right now toward deep character penetration and a focus on emotion and close POV and all that, but as near as I can tell, most of what gets published is still narration, with a narrator and not entirely immediate in nature (past tense.)

Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
Administrator
Member # 59

 - posted      Profile for Kathleen Dalton Woodbury   Email Kathleen Dalton Woodbury         Edit/Delete Post 
Please include the names of the people you are quoting.
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Princesisto
Member
Member # 11113

 - posted      Profile for Princesisto   Email Princesisto         Edit/Delete Post 
For what it's worth after all that:

(1) I am attracted to the story because it appears to be future fantasy and I like that. It's good to get the Global Disease Defence Corps into the first paragraph: that makes us want to know "What is that?"

(2) Many of the writers here like long sentences: I don't. A short, sharp, simple opening, preferably with a bit of mystery in it, either hooks the reader or doesn't. Your first sentence is a tad long and some readers will choke on it. And the "precious wafts of steam enveloped her in a private cocoon" reads like "trying too hard to be literary."

(3) I wouldn't start in the shower. Tell us something that happened. If the shower burned her, tell us. If the shower calmed her, tell us. If you're determined to stay in the shower, I would stop the first sentence with: "The pulsing warm water of the shower soothed her sore shoulders." But then 30 writers will queue here to say "Who the hell is she and why do her shoulders hurt?" Best off, start the scene when she is training and describe why she is there and what she is feeling (pain? why?). You can give her thermotherapy later. She can even remember, while she is training, a worse earlier session if that is needed.

(4) You caught a little "hatrack syndrome" and tried to stuff the whole story into the first 13 lines: that is one reason I don't do that anymore. If you want to play this game, remember the first 13 lines is still only the first 13: try to get the conflict of the story in there in some way, ideally protagonist and antagonist and their problem. Otherwise, remember Hemingway's "iceberg": don't tell everybody everything too quickly. Just show that there is something under the water. Readers will be curious to find out what that is and will read your story to find out.

(5) All of that aside, yes, I am interested in a world where there is an Army to fight disease and water is rationed. If you want to send me a Chapter or more and will read an equivalent amount of my story, use my e-mail.

Posts: 98 | Registered: Feb 2019  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2