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Author Topic: The confusing problem of premise(s) in stories
arriki
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if we're not on the SAME page with regards to theme, we must be at least on adjoining pages.
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arriki
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Let me continue on with trying to understand – premises.

There is the what extrinsic called the “low concept” premise. For example: a boy befriends an alien; Mars invades Earth; an evil lord fashions rings of power to bring people under his power; a witch married to a mortal goes to live in the suburbs; a boy learns he’s a wizard and goes to a school for wizardry; and on and on.

Are these ALL low concept premises? Are they ALSO all log lines?

A boy learns he’s wizard and goes to a school for wizardry versus a boy learns he has special abilities in the Force and goes off to save galaxy.

The first story (taking in all 7 parts) turns out to be about revenge for the murder of his parents? Saving the world, too. But isn’t the more visceral story about his revenge? If his parents hadn’t been killed, would the story have been quite as riveting – that philosophical dimension?

The second story is the reverse? A NEW HOPE is a story about saving the galaxy and only secondarily about revenge for the murder of his aunt and uncle. Indeed, that element is underplayed almost into nonexistence. More important is the murder of his tutor, his version of Dumbledore and the mistaken understanding that the evil villain killed his father.

We’re getting lost here. Premise is my topic. Both of these stories are wildly popular. Why? Isn’t there something beneath the words here, a premise(s) that speaks to the audiences/readers? And it is NOT the low concept but a moral premise?

Is revenge the real driving force in both stories? Is it what makes it somehow more vital than (in the STAR WARS case) the four other movies?

In ET, what is the driving force? Is it the boy’s love for his friend?

How does that fit with a philosophical moral dilemma?


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extrinsic
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Low-concept premise the way I learned it is the metaphorical subtext or figurative implications of a story. Meaning, I guess, subtended, below the surface meaning. High-concept premise, the literal meaning on the prominent--high--surface. A high-concept premise does closely parallel a log line.

A log line premise to be really catchy should contain an emotional premise along the lines of a psychological or moral dilemma or an equivalent emotionally engaging premise. For the Potter story, for example, An orphaned boy strives to come of age in a secret magic milieu while confronting the evil that killed his parents. My premise boilerplate, a larger than life character emerges from suffering insuperable struggles in dramatic contexts while addressing a life-defining complication. Note milieu, idea, character, event, theme, dilemma-conflict, etc.

Applying that boilerplate premise to Star Wars is troublesome because of the ensemble nature of the story. Any one installment has multiple focal characters, multiple viewpoints that movies can get away with seamlessly and novels have a harder time accomplishing, and short stories even more difficulty. That's why I've addressed the overarching story arc instead of the individual installments. An orphaned boy strives to come of age in a mystical warrior-scholar magical and high tech milieu while tempted with the vices and virtues of his powers. Note that premise applies to both Anakin and Luke.

Both Potter and Star Wars' storylines deal in part with challenges to noblity of character, integrity, and human decency, human frailties and failings through posing psychological and moral dilemmas, from different approaches. Empathy and sympathy in part drive the stories' resonance with audiences. In my interpretation, the main driving force in both is the amplified, ages old struggle between good and evil we live out in our daily lives.

Who are the villains in ET? The scientists, the grownups, the bullies? ET is a warm and fuzzy stray dog brought home for companionship. A lonely, figuratively orphaned boy discovers an extraterrestrial being and secretively brings it home to keep as a pet.

Sorry. I'm not hung up on orphaned boys, literally or figuratively. They just come up a lot in stories, probably for their built in sympathy/empathy factors, if not their built in journeys of intitiation and the added complication of having to go it alone. Strong parallels with Frodo's journey in Lord of the Rings.

[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited December 17, 2009).]


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arriki
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Could you please give me three or four examples of each of these two? I learn so much better with actual examples in front of me [with circles and lines and arrows pointing out the obvious].

Low-concept premise the way I learned it is the metaphorical subtext or figurative implications of a story. Meaning, I guess, subtended, below the surface meaning. High-concept premise, the literal meaning on the prominent--high--surface. A high-concept premise does closely parallel a log line.


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extrinsic
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Four high-concept premises.
  • An orphaned boy strives to come of age in a secret magic milieu while confronting the evil that killed his parents.
  • An orphaned boy strives to come of age in a mystical warrior-scholar magical and high tech milieu while tempted with the vices and virtues of his powers.
  • A lonely, figuratively orphaned boy discovers an extraterrestrial being and secretively brings it home to keep as a pet.
  • A lovely, thrifty woman in meager straits sells her hair to buy her hard-working husband a Christmas gift. "Gift of the Magi," O Henry.

Low-concept premises are not so easy to tease out, certainly not obvious, if present at all. If they are obvious, they seem preachy. They're subject to interpretation by their nature of implied meaning rather than literal meaning. There's that sub prefix again, sub-ject to, sub-jective, sub-text, sub-tended, sub-tlety. Effective low-concept premises are readily accessible by an average audience and often relate at least loosely to theme, and moral and message.

  • A person in a life-stage initiation must fashion his own place in the larger scheme of things, with a good leavening of, Outside help will provide in times of need.
  • Ditto.
  • Ditto.
  • True love is a magical gift. It's a revelation story, not a conventional conflict resolution story.
Those relatively simplistic low-concept premises are my interpretations, not the only ones I hold, though, and subject to differences of opinion.

[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited December 17, 2009).]


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snapper
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Okay, same thing is happening to this thread that happens to a lot. A simple question blows up into something monstrous, just like the Health Care debate.

What is a premise?

answer: What your story is about.

So what is your story about? Could you put it down in a paragraph or two? Is your premise consistent throughout your story?


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arriki
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Thanks, extrinsic, for the examples.

So, in your world the log line type of premise is a High Concept" premise and the moral premise is a "Low Concept" premise.

Premise as a usable term is gone, in my opinion. Nowadays you need to qualify what kind of premise you mean. A moral premise, a log line/high concept premise, a low concept premise, a what ---?

Does one choose what sort of premise to use or are all of them ideally working in your story when it's finished?


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extrinsic
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quote:
So, in your world the log line type of premise is a High Concept" premise and the moral premise is a "Low Concept" premise.
In the house, yes!
quote:
Premise as a usable term is gone, in my opinion. Nowadays you need to qualify what kind of premise you mean. A moral premise, a log line/high concept premise, a low concept premise, a what ---?
I agree that the value of premise thrown out in dynamic writing discussions without ample clarification has passed its prime.

I've learned something new from reducing my contemplations down to written words in order to share, which is a prime reason why I engage in these kinds of discussions. Log line, high-concept premise, theme premise, by whatever term whomever prefers, a literal meaning of what a story's about. A low-concept premise or moral premise, message premise, whatever, is about the dilemmas a story explores figuratively through conflicts, the oppositions of forces driving a character's purposes, no matter how subtended or accessible they are.

quote:
Does one choose what sort of premise to use or are all of them ideally working in your story when it's finished?
Getting the assorted premises to connect and resonate with each other and readers is the idea I believe we've been working toward. A moral that connects to a dilemma that connects to a literal action and whatever else. In that vein, a log line that poses a dilemma, figuratively if not literally, in addition to what a story is literally about, is an invaluable starting place for starting a dynamic story, or testing a story inspiration for sufficient readiness to go forward with drafting, and certainly for when revising and rewriting and when finished and ready for submission.

[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited December 19, 2009).]


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Teraen
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Just found this definition at http://www.sfwa.org/2009/08/aphorisms-for-writing-science-fiction/

"theme — a proposition to be argued or some aspect of human experience to examine, such as emotions, places, times, crises, or events."

Also this at http://www.sfwa.org/2009/06/a-checklist-for-critiquing-science-fiction/

"Theme and meaning. Does the story move us? So we emerge from our fictional journey emotionally engaged, or wiser than we went in? Do we remember the story after we’re done? Along the way, does the story force us to think? Do we re-examine, or see afresh, things we take for granted in our mundane universe? (If not, why is the story in an sf setting?) Does the story have a theme? Is the theme integrated with the events?"

That's what I think of when I say theme. Its the thing I want my reader to ponder after reading my story. Later in life, when they think of "friendship" (or whatever) I'd like them to remember my story in some small way as it contributes to the way they think about the theme I chose...

By contrast, premise was explored in these words:
"How well does the fictional universe come across? Is the reader truly transported into another place, a place he could imagine living in? Is the fictional universe vivid? Is it complex? If we could go there, would we want to?"

Again, it sparks me as the idea that made the story start. The writing prompt.

[This message has been edited by Teraen (edited December 24, 2009).]


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Christopher
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This is a great thread. I think I am going to print it and read it a dozen times. After reading all the posts so far, I think a couple of comments come closest to nailing what everyone is trying to get at:

1)Teraen and his idea of amplification of theme (or, phrased differently, "a amplificaion of moral premise", "theme" and "moral premise" being the same thing):

This, I think, is exactly what William is getting out when saying, "a cursory examination will affirm that psychological moral dilemmas are at the heart of every successful story".

2)And, from extrinsic...

"Getting the assorted premises to connect and resonate with each other and readers is the idea I believe we've been working toward".

So, why is "moral premise" or "theme" so important? [NOTE: I'm just figuring this out at a deeper level as I read this thread].

Because, without some unifying moral premise (or theme), I think we, as writers, just start adding stuff to our stories because it feels good at the moment, maybe on a particular line, or to a certain paragraph, or maybe as a response to something one of our characters just did, or because something I just created for the story suddenly reminds me of something else similiar, even though it doesn't really need to be added right then...

It's kind of like being in a meeting. You know how meetings go. Let's say it's a meeting at work. Everything could be covered in twenty minutes, but the meeting ends up going on for two hours because of all the things people say, not on point, but simply to be funny, or show they're smart, or to kiss the boss's ass, or just because what someone just said reminds you of something else, and, before you know it, you've opened your mouth and are saying it out loud even though it really contributes nothing etc, etc.

I think lots of writers stories end up being like that. Part of it is simply because it's part of the creative process, the brain-storming nature of creating something out of nothing on the blank page. However, just like with a meeting that goes on too long, eventually, a reader wonders, Why am I still here? What the hell's the point?

I think the meaning and "point" of good stories is rarely in doubt. Or, at least the reader has a strong sense that there will be a meaningful point if they continue to read. Think about all the books we start and don't finish. I stop reading when a story isn't progressing in any meaningful way. It's usually when the author has forgotten the point him or herself (and maybe didn't ever know it), and, even though they will probably find it again (maybe only one page, or, perhaps, fifty pages later), I don't know when that reconnection will take place so I'm usually onto another book that has a better sense of itself.

This is also why, in my own writing (after hearing lots of authors say this), I always know the ending of a story before I start. That way, I always know the point. Maybe we could call this something like "premise point", premise being used here the other way, as "what's the story about", or like the "logline."

Theme, or moral premise, would serve a similiar purpose, but, not so much with simply events, but with the "emotional point" of the story. You can have all the events and actions in the world going on in your story, but if the reader doesn't feel anything while it is happening, the story will feel hollow and meaningless. Knowing your moral premise (or theme) can help prevent this, just like knowing the ending of your story as you're writing can prevent that from happening with story events.

[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited January 28, 2010).]


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