Edit: I deliberately changed what I had written, because I thought it was exactly the same as the post before mine, and when I posted it I found out the new version was exactly the same and what I had originally written wasn't.
I'm obviously losing my mind. But I do wish you all the best, even in my non-original wording.
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Yay for the beautiful NdRa! I'm happy you're in a better place now sweetie. Now that you know where to go and who to go to...keep in close touch with them!
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Sandy, my hubby is nearly 6 years old on the AA scale, and I look forward to hearing when you make your 1 year birthday. Every day recovered is something to be celebrated and feared -- celebrated for the accomplishment, feared for the loss of it. I'm so very, VERY happy for you. Being around a lot of people in recovery, I love to see the ones who stick it out, work their program diligently, and never forget that their sobriety did not come wholly of themselves.
I'm celebratin' big time for you! (geez...I don't even know you and I'm getting all misty...)
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thanks everyone! I just got back from my meeting, and this 12-step stuff is a little overwhelming. Regardless, it seems to work so I'm going to work it to the best of my ability.
My license was suspended, so I have to walk everywhere I go. The last time I took the bus, I was 15 years old. This is all very refreshing.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Congrats to your husband Jeniwren! Wow, 6 years... I can't wait to make that mark... uh... I guess I can wait.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2001
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We need to do lunch again soon, neh? I can pick you up . . . or we can find something in walking distance. *laugh* Or we could brave the MTA together, if you like. It hasn't been THAT long since I depended on the buses to get everywhere.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rivka, we must do lunch soon! Can you email me your number again when you get a chance? I lost my old sim card along with ALL of my numbers. Yeah, what a mess I was. induceATgmail.com Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sandy, if there's any encouragement I can offer you it's this -- I've seen totally hopeless cases by almost anyone's standard finally get sober and stay sober. A dear friend of ours was sent to mandatory inpatient rehab 17 times. The 17th time was the one he needed to finally "get it". He now is the second-in-command at our local homeless shelter, giving back what he was so freely given. Even with that, he relapsed briefly a little over a year ago. He's back on again, working his program again. He makes me so proud.
But it's not how far you fall or how long you stay clean and sober. Thirteen days is worth the same as six years if you don't rely only on your own strength. And six years (or 10 or 25) can go *poof* with just one moment of thinking you can just do it on your own. That's the one that will get you. Maybe not the first time the thought comes...but it only takes one...
(Can you guess that my hubby is very passionate about recovery? It's contagious. ) Personally, I like steps 1-4. They're really hard, but oh, so rewarding!
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I'll email them in just a minute. Wouldn't matter if you hadn't lost them -- all but my cell changed a couple months ago.
*startled* I think I might actually be free a fair bit this weekend. What a concept! And if that doesn't work, I think next weekend is a possibility as well.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Jeniwren, I wish I could get as excited about the program as you seem be. I have so many issues pertaining to the 12-steps starting with my whole God problem. As an agnostic, relying completely and utterly on a higher power is difficult. A part of me really believes in the power of my own will, but I keep hearing this is detrimental to my recovery.
I do believe in the program, and I've seen it work miracles in the lives around me. I want it to work so badly for me, but can't seem to embrace it in a way that may be essential to my everlasting recovery. Without meaning to sound too melodramatic, this really is a matter of life and death for me. I'm afraid I can't seem to fully surrender the way i'm supposed to. Damn questions keep popping into my head and this isn't due to defiance as I am going to "work" the program regardless.
I need a sponsor, but am finding it so difficult to call anyone. It's so comfortable at my parents house, and even nicer not being a social person for the first time. *Groan* working this program means I have to socialize, and get really involved.
My sobriety excites me, while the 12-steps doesn't.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Congratulations Sandy! Rehab is hard work, and you should never be forced to do it on your own. My father, a longtime alcoholic, has been sober for about a year now. He is now closing in on two months without a smoke. It has been hard for him, but it seems he has succeeded. He attends AA meetings regularly, and his mood and health have undergone profound change for the better.
I have my opinions on the 12 step system, that I might be better keeping to myself. The bottom line is, if it works for you, excellent. But if you are having problems with it, there are other programs to help you quit. Cognitive behavioral therapy, especially in conjunction with Naltrexone, can be extremely effective. Forgoing the 12 step program does not entail going it alone. There are options, many of which have a much lower relapse rate.
<edit> I just read your post, and I'm glad I decided to give my two cents. If you want me to go into more detail, I would be happy to. My prof for psychopharmacology is an addiction researcher, and I would be happy to share what I learned from her class.
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You can do it! You can do it! You can do it!
Come back as frequently as you need to for as much encouragement as you need. We believe in you! Okay, sure, I'm speaking for a lot of other people, but I think it's a fair assessment.
You can do it! You can do it! You can do it! Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Your reservations about the program are well founded. The emphasis on faith, both in a higher power and the program itself can be very uncomfortable for some people. Many people are unwilling to completely surrender themselves to an ideal that holds them to be powerless over their lives without it. This is a very reasonable position to take. Many people of a more empirical minset find the program to be more like a cult than a treatment for what they see is essentially a medical problem.
Aside from personal issues, the program also has a problem with regards to its success rate. In terms of actual studies, the consensus with regards to AA found that after a year the relapse rate was 85-98%. This pegs its effectiveness at about the annual rate of spontaneous remission of about 5%. An alcoholic not involved in any program is as likely to successfully kick the habit as someone in AA. This little stat, regardless of its accuracy, brings up another point. 12 step programs claim that without the program, they cannot be cured. This is patently false. 80% of all recovered alcoholics stopped on their own, without help of any kind of organised program. To say that this is impossible is a flat out lie.
Posts: 1769 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Sandy, sure looks like a whole bunch of us folks around here love you dearly. Just remember that we're always hanging around this place when ya need us. Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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For what it's worth, NdRa, faith really didn't play a part in my wife's rehab at all. She was very motivated to change her life, as you sound like you are, and basically made the decision to be different than she had been, and stuck with it. She took more of a psychological approach to the process, doing enormous amounts of self examination, working with a really good therapist, etc. to get to the root of why she had acted in the ways that she had, and to change them.
I think that faith is one very valid avenue to breaking addictions, but I definitely don't think that it's the only one.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I've been in therapy for other reasons, and one thing I learned was that it matters a whole heck of a lot less what the therapist's school of thought is and a whole lot more on the relationship with the therapist. If you trust him/her, and you put in the effort, it will work.
The other side of that is that I believe very firmly in following hunches. If a particular path of therapy feels like it's what I should be doing at this point, then I do it, no matter how odd it may seem. Usually, it doesn't seem odd - just occasionally. But following the hunches always paid off.
So here's my advice. Work with people you're comfortable with, and follow your instincts as you find your own path back.
And much good luck and prayers to you, if you're okay with that.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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NdRa -- remember in our AA program, the key is that the "higher power" can be whatever you choose it to be -- it doesn't have to be anyone else's interpretation of God.
quote:from the AA site: There’s a lot of talk about God, though, isn’t there? The majority of A.A. members believe that we have found the solution to our drinking problem not through individual willpower, but through a power greater than ourselves. However, everyone defines this power as he or she wishes. Many people call it God, others think it is the A.A. group, still others don’t believe in it at all. There is room in A.A. for people of all shades of belief and nonbelief.
There are many non-believers in our group.
As to what Chaeron said;
quote:Aside from personal issues, the program also has a problem with regards to its success rate. In terms of actual studies, the consensus with regards to AA found that after a year the relapse rate was 85-98%.
This was not true in the beginning. What happened was that the courts got involved and began "sending" people to AA against their will. Someone who have no desire to become sober, and is only there to fulfill a court order, will not be successful with the program.
In the beginning, AA was made up of those wanting to stay sober, reaching out to others who wanted to become sober and stay sober. And the success rate was much higher.
Stopping is not hard. It's the staying stopped that's hard. And that is what AA is there for -- to give a support network of friends to hang with that don't drink, that won't pressure you to drink, and that you can build relationships with outside of the drugs and/or alcohol.
posted
I ask the others of you -- now that NdRa is sober and clean, and has found a support network through AA for the time being, please don't undercut this program and shake her belief in it when it is what she NEEDS at this time to get through this stage of her recovery.
The whole idea of changing playgrounds and playmates -- surrounding yourself with others who have found it possible to continue daily without drinking or drugging.
You are all certainly entitled to your opinions about the 12-step program. But perhaps here is not the time/place to have that debate. Because for right now, we should be mostly concerned with being friends and helping NdRa fulfill her goals.
There may come a time in the future where she develops a different support network than AA, as I have. (20 years in AA -- I now rarely go to meetings at all -- but I have many many other friends and people I'm with that understand me and support me).
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Also, I've never heard anyone say, "It's impossible to stop drinking without AA." I have heard them say, "It was impossible for ME to stop drinking without AA."
I'm sure there are those who preach the first, but I haven't come across them.
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I hope I didn't sound like I was trying to undercut anything. I'm actually incredibly supportive of what she's doing; I was just trying to let her know that if she felt uncomfortable with the whole "higher power" business that putting faith in it wasn't her only option for successfully beating her addictions.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I use 12 step for overeating, but I use Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and meditation for my Anxiety and OCD. They are not incompatible ideas. The important thing is to realize that if I had the power to stop these things on my own, I would have done it years ago because they were making me miserable. I have to do some things that don't come naturally in order to get past some of the unpleasant aspects of being me. I've had to redefine my "Self".
I think a "higher power" that is community and love is just as close to the truth as the white bearded emporer of heaven that I grew up with, and had always believed in but who I always regarded as competition when it came to my interests.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I promise I am not trying to undercut AA... that said, there certainly are other options. I have a hunch that the individual's sincere commitment to sobriety is far more important than the program used to help. Different programs for different people. If AA is obviously not working, it might be time to try something else, but as long as it is stay in it.
I will undercut to some extent the other *A programs. AA was developed by alcoholics, who understood that drug. It really is effective for most alcoholics who truly want to quit, enough to be worthy of being considered the "default option" for alcohol. Different drugs have different issues, though. Different highs, different social issues, different reasons to use. I am not saying the *As do not work at all. Certainly for any drug the desire to quit is the most important factor. I just think the default needs to be tailored to the specific drug more than it is.
On a more practical note... Sandy, they might have already told you this, but maybe not. If you should relapse once, it is not the end of the world. Not saying it is fine to have just one... but if you do have just one (or more) one night, that does not mean it is hopeless so you might as well give up. The next morning, figure out why you slipped, and move on. If there is one common trait I have noticed about users of any drug, it is letting the one time snowball.
Hopefully that last paragraph will be irrelevant. About the higher power and faith... often, if one repeats a statement enough, they begin to believe and/or internalize it, even if they did not believe it at first. (However, the more one accepts the validity of the statement to start with, the better this works. It is also more effective with opinions and attitudes rather than plain facts.) This can also be used to change attitudes and desires.
Make a written list of every negative aspect of alcohol, narcotics, etc. that is true and real to you. Positives will probably come, but leave them in your head. If there are any other negative aspects that may not be real, but you wish them to be, put them down too. Rather than leaving them at the end of the list, disperse them between the ones you already believe. Say every item on the list either mentally or out loud, two to ten times through two or three times a day. Repeat until it works or it has been a year and obviously is not. It is easier to turn down a drink or pill when your brain is emphasizing the negatives instead of the positives.
Back to faith in a higher power, or the program, or anything... this will be harder to do, but still worth trying. It is free and always will be. I doubt it will make you believe in God or any given religion, but it could very easily work for a vaguely defined higher power. Something like, "AA will work if I work with it." "There is a power greater than myself that/who will help me through this." I would caution that this should not be done if you are very good at denial. If you have regularly and sincerely gone to meeting for a year or two, and are still drinking regularly, obviously the faith is misplaced.
You mentioned smoking like a chimney during rehab. If you currently use caffeine, it is a better overall drug than nicotine. Healthier, cheaper, more socially acceptable, longer lasting high, and arguably more enjoyable high. On the other hand, if you do not use it then do not start. It is approximately as addictive as cocaine. Withdrawal is unpleasant and caffeinated beverages are shoved in your face everywhere you go. It also has its own set of health problems. Still better than cigarettes.
Watch out for other subsitute drugs. Antidepressants might be worth it but might not. Sugar, especially processed sugar is bad for the teeth and not particularly healthy. Chocolate has sugar, caffeine, and theobromine in it. Food in general is a drug, one that is currently an epidemic in this country. Substitute drugs are sometimes a good idea, but generally not. Alcohol might make you miserable, but nicotine is more likely to kill you.
Better substitutes are activities that release dopamine and/or endorphins. Internet, books, movies, poker, whatever. Hell, as much as I rant against television it could take the place of a cold one. Gambling would work but is probably not a good idea. In my own experience community service will give a head buzz similar to a low but long-lasting dose of MDMA, although no body buzz. On the other hand, it has no comedown, is usually free, and any brain damage is reversable. It seems to work even if you are only doing it to get high.
I would guess that for at least two thirds of users, being high means they are not bored. Even if you are part of the one third, you probably were not bored when you were acquiring or actively ingesting drugs. Boredom will be your enemy. Obviously meetings will help, but if you do not want to be one of those people who attend three meetings a day for the rest of their life you will need something else.
We're all rooting for you.
Posts: 281 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:I do believe in the program, and I've seen it work miracles in the lives around me. I want it to work so badly for me, but can't seem to embrace it in a way that may be essential to my everlasting recovery. Without meaning to sound too melodramatic, this really is a matter of life and death for me. I'm afraid I can't seem to fully surrender the way i'm supposed to. Damn questions keep popping into my head and this isn't due to defiance as I am going to "work" the program regardless.
I need a sponsor, but am finding it so difficult to call anyone. It's so comfortable at my parents house, and even nicer not being a social person for the first time. *Groan* working this program means I have to socialize, and get really involved.
My sobriety excites me, while the 12-steps doesn't.
Sandy, it's not melodramatic to say that it's life or death. It may very well be the truth, and it's to your credit that you see it. It tells me that you're willing to be totally honest (brutally honest, even), not only with yourself, but with others. To me, that is very encouraging for you being able to stay the course on a program about which you have doubts.
I'd be surprised (and alarmed a little) if you were gungho and enthusiastic about the 12 Steps this early in your recovery. The first premise is one that is *very* hard to swallow in a genuine sense, and it is my belief that it only comes with practice. Being willing to suspend disbelief, or at least pretend that you're suspending disbelief, is what I've heard called Step 0. Beyond that, I also find it helpful to stay away from the idea that I don't surrender as much as I'm "supposed to". We surrender as much as we can for that moment. Putting more pressure on is just discouraging.
If nothing else, the community associated with the 12 Steps will help you build the accountability and social connection that makes staying clean and sober thatmuch more possible. Even if you can't swallow the Higher Power stuff, go to your meetings. Do your Inventory and reconcile what you find there. If you isolate, I will worry about you...I've never seen that work out well. In fact, if you start to isolate, please drop me an email so I can reply telling you to get on the phone to someone in your group. Right now.
I believe that some people can get clean without AA or its equivilents (hubby practices an equivilent, though he's done AA also). I have a private, fully admitted prejudicial belief, however, that people who are successful with AA are ultimately much happier than those who try other methods, but that's just my own prejudice. It has to do with dealing with what led you to use and getting it healed rather than covering it up.
I'm so, so rooting for you and proud of what you've accomplished so far!
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oh man, I was pumped at the beginning of all this. I'm afraid I am isolating a bit. As a non-sober person, I was quite the social butterfly. Constantly, people surrounded me at all times, and I loved it. Now I find it hard to even want to see the few people I still care about. I can't even manage to speak with people over AIM.
I am forcing myself to attend meetings. I haven't called anyone from the program and I don't bother answering my phone. This behaviour is very unlike me.
The cravings to use are not there. I have no desire to drink or get loaded. I spend my days alone excersizing, reading, and writing. This feelss like an onset of depression that I refuse to cure by using. I'm completely living in my brain right now and can't fathom doing anything else. Staying at my parents house feels safe and good.
Thanks again for all your support.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I apologize for not being able to better express what is going on. This whole living sober thing is surreal to me, and my head is mostly in a fog. I really do appreciate you guys for listening to me whine as I am finding it hard to speak to anyone. It is suprising that I am managing to share with you folks. Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Well, it's good to hear from you. As far as your recovery, there are plenty of options, if you find your current approach is making you depressed, try something else. If you need someone to talk to, there are plenty of people here who would be more than happy to lend their support.
Posts: 1769 | Registered: Feb 2000
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*hug* It's a big adjustment, Sandy. You're still figuring it all out, and that's ok.
Drop me a line when you feel up to sociability again. (and with any luck, it will be at a time that I am in the mood as well -- I have never been a social butterfly )
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: The cravings to use are not there. I have no desire to drink or get loaded. I spend my days alone excersizing, reading, and writing. This feelss like an onset of depression that I refuse to cure by using. I'm completely living in my brain right now and can't fathom doing anything else. Staying at my parents house feels safe and good
Keep going to meetings and working through it. What you are describing is not unusual for this stage of your progress. Just hang in there with your resolve to not let it drive you back to using, and you will get through it okay.
Sometimes we have to find a new "normal" compared to our old one.
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