quote:In comparison to the Hatrack friends I have met, my non-Hatrack friends seem a little bit paler. All of the most brilliant, interesting, funny, knowledgeable people I know are here.
I'm interested in this (often repeated) perspective, especially as how it influences people's feelings and participation in Hatrack and just the general social dynamics.
Is it important to people that Hatrack has smarter, more interesting, funnier, compassionate, etc. people on it than they know in real life? Do people even agree with that statement?
Would a less general superiority be more in line with your opinion? Say that people here may be smarter but not necessarily funnier or compassionate or whatever? If so, is that reflected in what you come to Hatrack for? Say, if you think people are funnier, do you find yourself gravitating towards joke threads? And do you go to read those places where you think Hatrack is superior but find posting there intimidating, and tend to post in places where you think Hatrack is on a similar level to your real life experience?
Are there people out there who find Hatrack to be on a comparable or even (as I do) a lower level than their real life interactions? Do you think that this perspective makes your Hatrack experience qualitatively different from the people who find it superior? What do you get out of Hatrack, if it's not the company of superior people?
I don't know. The web forum dynamic is very interesting to me. I'd be grateful for anything people wanted to say about this.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I wouldn't say Hatrack people seem more or less real. I sure like meeting people I know from Hatrack, though. But I woudn't say they are more real than the people from Hatrack I haven't met.
P.S. I guess the concern I would have is that Hatrack allows me to remain a shut in. I mean, if I'm okay with that, is it okay?
[ December 29, 2004, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I love it here, and I enjoy the fact that I can almost always find someone here who knows something about what I need/want to discuss.
I find that a lot of my friends IRL are nice, and are smart in their own ways, but that I have very ecletic tastes sompared to them so I am constantly having to explain myself to them.
Here I don't have to do that most of the time.
I wouldn't say that all my friends here are smarter than my RL friends, but I DO know quite a few people here who are as smart (if nto smarter) than just about anyone I have met IRL, antwhere.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Maybe I'm blessed with awesome friends, but I find that interacting with my real-life friends is much more interesting than Hatrack, but I can't interact with my friends just by connecting to the internet. Forums in general are nice because of the massive numbers of viewpoints and different comments.
I come to Hatrack in particular because I haven't come across a better forum on the internet. The discussions are always interesting, and the people are more civil than other forums I have visited. The only more-polite forum I visit is one devoted to Wings3d, a freeware 3d modeling program. And it's only more polite because there's no discussion about "fuzzy" topics.
Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
My closest friends IRL tend to be bright, thoughtful, funny people. Many of them I think would make wonderful hatrackers.
So for me it's not that hatrackers are so much more intellegent and funny than my friends... it's that there are so many people here who I would like to be friends with. I'm sure it's because we all tend to have some common interests, especially reading. All of my close friends IRl are also avid readers.
So, I have 4 or 5 close friends, all of whom I'd call "hatrack-caliber" or above. I have a wider circle of 20 or so people I interact with regularly, also of hatrack caliber. I work in an office of about 220 people... most of whom are not hatrack caliber. And I crave almost constant metal stimulation.
I go out with my friends, I work, I read, I work on my hobbies... and I come here. Because if no one from my pool of 5 - 20 people IRL is available to chat with me and amuse me, there is a very good chance that several people from the much larger pool of hatrackers I enjoy and admire will be.
Edit: Reading this, I have no idea if it says what I meant or not.
posted
ElJay, I guess the idea of seeing people as "hatrack-caliber" is sort of what I'm getting at. How do you think this influences your interactions here and with other people, both of that caliber and not?
posted
One of the things I'm somewhat amazed by is how much time some people spend here and how high there post counts are. Obviously, Hatrack is a very important thing for them. I guess I'm wondering if this perception of superiorty factors into this.
Also, I have this recollection that there is actually a run of t-shirts out there that say something like "Hatrack: Like your real friends, only smarter." Do these shirts actually exist? What do people feel about them and in what circumstances do people wear them, if they do?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
My best friend, William, is actually my yardstick for Jatraqueros, rather than the other way around. We have a very strong friendship because we're both well-versed in different things and have different viewpoints on things, but have a lot of common interests that allow us to hang out together. This forum has many people who serve the same role as he does, but with different fields of knowledge and different viewpoints.
I'd much rather spend an afternoon with him throwing dice in a game of Warmachine than on Hatrack. Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I like being around people who are smarter than me. And I prefer being a follower rather than a leader.
I haven't got any RL friends that live in the same state that I do. Other than interacting with people at work, who tend to focus on medicine and are rather boring, I don't HAVE anyone to interact with.
Hatrack always gives me interesting things to think about. Hatrack tells me about important news events. Even during the days or weeks when I don't post much I look at hatrack all day long.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
*shrug* I've never actually thought of people in that way or not before... I broke people into those categories here because it seemed to be what you were driving at, if people saw the people they interacted with outside of hatrack as "above" or "below" the ones they interacted with here. When I thought about it, I have to put the people I choose to interact with IRL in the "equal or above" category, and some, although not all, of the people people I "have" to interact with in the "below" category.
In other words, I see most hatrackers as being people I choose to interact with. Obviously, or I wouldn't be here. And the ones I've met in real life have almost all been people I would enjoy hanging around with regularly if we lived in the same states.
Um, so I don't think it influences my interactions at all. I was answering "Are there people out there who find Hatrack to be on a comparable or even (as I do) a lower level than their real life interactions?" from your initial post, and pretty much ignoring the rest. Sorry about that.
quote: Also, I have this recollection that there is actually a run of t-shirts out there that say something like "Hatrack: Like your real friends, only smarter." Do these shirts actually exist? What do people feel about them and in what circumstances do people wear them, if they do?
This was a slogan that was thrown out during the discussion of KamaCon T-shirts. I believe it was put out as a joke, although I could be wrong. It was not actually made. At least not for KamaCon, I suppose someone might have made it.
As a joke, I think it is hilarious... because of the fact that to me hatrack is the best reference tool on the planet. We have such a wide range of interests and professions here that someone is an expert on almost everything. I've never seen a question not get answered, although sometimes it has to be bumped for awhile.
Edit: The slogan that was actually used, if you're interested, was "Prove Your Existance."
posted
In a quite a few ways, to me, Hatrack is mostly filler. It's good filler, no doubt - the cheese in a jalepeno popper - but filler nonetheless.
Posts: 2292 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I think you're misinterpreting the sentiment. (And making me sound more than a little bit pathetic in the process.)
Note that I specifically mentioned the people I met in real life. I do not come here looking for superior people. Nor do I use Hatrack as a substitute for having a life.
My first experience with Hatrack was stumbling across the Hatrack River 1830s thing. I thought it was a cute concept, and it seemed cool that OSC himself apparently participated, or at least looked at it once in a while. This was a LONG time ago. However, actually reading the thing it became clear that everyone was doing their own thing and there wasn't anything too interesting (to me) emerging there. So I never looked in again.
A few years ago, I heard that OSC was having a signing, and so Cor and I went. While in line, I met Bob Scopatz and Chris Bridges. Bob told me about the forums, and I was dubious, because I thought he was describing what I had already seen, but he made it sound really interesting. So I started lurking, and eventually started posting.
Now look at who introduced me to the place!
Now I don't want to rehash the whole "Who have you met" thing--there's another thread for that, anyway. But the fact is that I have met people who are brilliant, cool, and brilliant and cool. And this makes sense: when I travel (or when people travel near me) it makes sense that I try to get together with the people who interest me. (And I travel quite a bit.) So maybe not all hatrackers are brilliant and cool, but I have met many that are.
Now, as far as the people in my real life world. I am a pretty eccentric person. I am the teacher with the long hair and the crazy sideburns who always ignores the way he is supposed to be. I don't look like a teacher, I don't dress like a teacher. I am an aspiring writer, a performer, and a science fiction buff, and a Disney nerd to boot. I am the weirdest person I know. And I like myself that way. I have no interest in being normal. Most of the people I know in real life are nice, but they are saddeningly normal.
But Hatrack in many cases does attract an eccentric crowd. We are mostly science fiction buffs. We have a lot of weird characters. We are, on average, more knowledgeable in world events. Many of us are aspiring artists. SO it makes sense that I find the Hatrackers I've met to be a bit more colorful than the people I know outside of Hatrack. And this is why I try to meet new Hatrackers whenever I can.
When you ask if it's important to me that Hatrack have ___ people than those I know in real life, it sounds to me like you're really asking if it's important to me to believe that this is true. The question I hear is, "Are you such a friendless loser that you have to convince yourself that your circle of nerd-friends here is superior to the real-life people you don't know because you sit in front of a computer all day?"
It is not important to me that Hatrack have any particular kind of people in it. Instead, you have it exactly backward, at least in my case. If I had come to hatrack and found it full of boring or pompous or mean people, I simply would not have stayed. If I get to feeling like my sentiments about Hatrackers are no longer descriptive of the norm, I will leave.
I don't think I gravitate toward any particular kind of thread. I gravitate away from silly threads, but I like funny ones. I generally participate in political threads for about a page or two, after which it is my belief that any real communication generally ceases. I participate most heavily in interpersonal dynamic threads: relationship threads and such. This is not a reflection of how I view Hatrack's personality, but of how I view my own. Those kinds of issues are most meaningful to me, so they are the ones I have most to say about.
quote: Are there people out there who find Hatrack to be on a comparable or even (as I do) a lower level than their real life interactions?
Just to reiterate: I have not said anywhere that my interactions online are on a higher level than my interactions in real life.
-o-
One effect I will say there is from this perspective is I am perhaps a bit more defensive than I ought to be from what I perceive to be trolls. Trollish behavior adds nothing to my enjoyment of the place, and makes it therefore more likely for me to leave. Trollish behavior has also led to people I like and value leaving, or simply posting less, and so it has decreased my enjoyment in this secondary manner as well. And so when insulting, rude, non-productive people come around, I don't ignore the bait like everyone says we should. I, perhaps unproductively, feel the need to confront it. But it stems from thinking that what makes Hatrack special is not intrinsic, or even rooted (necessarily) in anything the Cards have done, but rather that it's a serendipitous and fragile thing, and I get pissed when I feel that it is threatened.
Does that answer your question?
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I think that there is such a large number of people here that you can find anything. That makes it attractive to people like me who sleep on a weird schedual.
also I am learning to actually type, rather than poke at the keys.
Since I bought the typing software my speed has tripled, and I get a huge amount of practice typing here. That directly applies to my marketability in the workplace.
Also, this is the only place on the web where I have felt comfortable enough to meet people IRL from a web site. The people I have met from here have all been worth knowing, even briefly. That just isn't true when I meet new people randomly IRL. If I meet Hatrackers IRL we already know we have a common base of interests that a stranger and I would probably not have.
And I am not your typical computer geek either...I didn't even have a computer of my own for the first 2 1/2 years I posted here.
I am most defiantly not shy about meeting people IRL...just ask Bob_S, or Mike, or Liz, or anyone here who has met me in person. I have a ton of friends IRL, but I know that most of them would not be interested in Hatrack so I mention it but I don't push it.
I do have a friend or two that I think would really like this place..they are smart, and funny, and like computers. They are literate, and most of them can type well enough, and are tolerant.
Oddly enough they already remind me of my favorite Hatrackers.
posted
I see myself in so many people here. I guess Hatrack holds kind of a morbid fascination for me. Seriously, it's like watching a bunch of alternate universes interact with each other sometimes.
Hatrack is one place where most of my stupid humor doesn't work, so I tend to think of Jatraqueros as generally my superiors. Kind of a holy grail. There's a promise here somewhere that I've been chasing for the past 4 years. I still don't know what it is.
Hatrack is a good foil for work. Get tired writing about something, and come to Hatrack to find out all the random stuff everyone else is thinking about. When Hatrack goes through dry spells, it's excruciating. I don't have any other thoughtful spots on the Web.
I appreciate the fairly high average age around here as well. Not that I don't value the perspectives of the younger folk here, but it's nice to see eye to eye with others who have had some of the same experiences as I have so far.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I think on message boards like this you get the two extremes. You have the chance of forming deep friendships that are not tied to thinks just as popularity and looks...as well as the fact that you have a group of people that is likely to be more intelligent than the general population...and has at least one hobby in common. Then you have the people who like to stir up trouble...and feel free to do so because it is rather anonymous.
The good think is, it is relatively easily to ignore the bad type, and focus on the good type.
Of course some people will think you are odd for making close friends over the Internet. If I mention on line stuff to my mother when I am visiting my parents she refers to them as "imaginary people." When I was younger it used to annoy me, but now I mostly just roll my eyes.
And of course there is my younger sister that is mortified that I talk to strangers on line. She seems to find it "geeky" and warns me not to tell girls who I want to go out with about posting on message boards.
Personally, I think it is very interesting when people mix message board life with real life. On the board where I am an administrator (Terry Goodkind's board) there is a yearly meeting of a bunch of the members (Terry has been to a few of them). And of course there have been all kinds of meetings of hatrack people. Strangely, I have never met anyone I met on the internet in person...though I have had many phone conversations with people I have met online. The Gainesville meeting was to be my first...though the hurricane put an end to that (though I still think we should get together sometime in Jan).
I also find it interesting how message boards seem to have their own personalities at times. You ca just get a feeling for the overall tone of the board after just a little bit of time there. For example, the political tone of George RR Martin's board is rather far to the left. I tried to post there for a while, but just felt very out of place since just about everyone there had very different beliefs than me, and were very hostile about it. This place seems to be a bit left of center (which surprised me at first, due to Card's religious beliefs), but there are also people on the right so it does not feel lopsided or anything. Terry Goodkind's board leans a bit to the right, but not as far as you would expect based on his writing and beliefs. Like hatrack, it has plenty of diversity.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Picasso used to hang out with his weird artsy friends at the Lapin Agile. Voltaire and his pals hung out at that one coffee shop. The first abstract expressionists all ended up in New York in the 1950's.
People gravitate together based on common interests and stimulation; there's nothing forced or fake about the way communities create themselves. The internet may be a new forum, but so was the trans-atlantic travel that got Hans Hoffman to New York.
I'm not apologetic for enjoying my interactions here. I don't think having friends in one place affects your ability to have friends elsewhere. I'm a very social person and enjoy spending time with friends here in town, but I tend to find others who have a lot in common with me online too. I don't think it's very fair to decide who is smarter and who is more stimulating.* My friends are my friends.
--
*though, in the case of the infamous t-shirt (methinks it was a David Bowelsism from back in the day), it can be very funny, which was its intent.
posted
Hatrack is exactly not like junior high, which is why I like Hatrack so much. In junior high, I had to have forced interactions with a lot of people I had very little in common with (and on an almost daily basis), in a pressure cooker sort of situation where the competition was laser-beam focused, where unhealthy behaviors and attitudes meant increased popularity, and where I not only didn't understand the rules, but was actively disliked by people with power.
Ugh. Hated junior high.
Hatrack is much more like college, which is why I like Hatrack so much. In college, I was free to pick and choose the environments (i.e., threads) that interest me, could move in and out of different groups as I saw fit, was in an environment where the competition was much more diffuse and diverse, where my own skills -- such as they may be -- were valued, and where I pretty much understood the rules.
That's cool.
I don't think it's that my Hatrack friends are necessarily smarter or better or extra-foamy, just that we have chosen the same classes, are relatively pretty adult, and could all drop the course if we wanted.
A lot of my friends in the 3-D world are like that, too. Unfortunately (or, perhaps, fortunately), I'm also forced into interactions with people and situations that don't suit me, too. Some work and family situations, for example, where I grit my teeth and bear up with as much grace as possible. (They are probably doing the same! ). But there's some growth to that, too, and there's growth to the sort of challenges I come across to my worldview and personality at Hatrack, as well.
Hatrack: like picking your own college courses in the stuff you are interested in, moderated by a counsellor to avoid hazing, and no tuition or grades.
Of course I like it. Doesn't mean I have to convince anyone or myself that it is unsurmountably the Best, just that the nature of the set-up makes it likely that I will be happiest here. College was much the same way.
[ December 29, 2004, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I think I sort of look at it like ElJay. The people I generally choose to be friends with IRL would mostly do well at hatrack. The large majority of them actually have read OSC. I've even referred several of them to threads here that they've enjoyed and one has actually joined though she posts rarely.
But the people here at work for example... while I am "friends" with them it isn't by choice it's more actually like a family situation where you get along with them warts and all cause they aren't going anywhere and you will see them tomorrow too.
posted
Geez, you guys sound more self-satisfied than a gang of felons or Bush's cabinet. I like the people in real life, but the virtue in hatrack is that the web-site-- and not necessarily the people who are on it-- is always there, always giving and never taking. You get the perk of unconditional love without any of the responsibility. It's a better emotional investment than a dog.
posted
"The question I hear is, 'Are you such a friendless loser that you have to convince yourself that your circle of nerd-friends here is superior to the real-life people you don't know because you sit in front of a computer all day?'"
Yeah, that's the question I heard, too. And like Irami's most recent comment, it's a question that can really only come from someone who doesn't understand the appeal in the first place.
Anyone who thinks that Hatrack gives without taking has clearly never considered giving back. I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I can name over a dozen regulars who have devoted time, money, and serious emotional investment -- and I'm not just talking about the Cards, here -- to keep this place prosperous.
To be perfectly honest, I find the likely underpinning of Squicky's original question -- and Irami's followup above -- to be not only offensive but rather baseless; the comments betray, in my opinion, a certain lack of perception and understanding. It's like asking a Trekkie, "So, this whole space star shooty thing; do you like it because of the Wookies, or the lightsabers?"
posted
I had an experience in High School in my senior year that reminds me of this thread for a reason.
I was a strange kid, not strange as in watch your daughter, but just a bit off. I played flute, read books (particularly Fantasy) at an enormous rate, hated most sports. I was pretty smart but didn't do real well in a lot of classes because I hated the subject material...or I just didn't care. I was really, really into music, and took great pride in my musical skills.
Now in High School it always seemed to me that I was on the outside looking in that I never really fit into any of the neat little groups that the others did. I was as smart as most of the brainy kids, and a lot of them were my friends even though I hated math... ...and a lot of the kids in my music classes were more the popular types who just wanted an easier grade, and they thought my obsession with music was weird. I was on the Swim Team and the Tennis team....but most of the jocks looked down on those sports and didn't consider us one of them. At least not me, all 120 lbs of me.
I didn't even buy a yearbook, because I didn't care about that. I didn't want to walk up to a bunch of people who were wishy-washy about their friendship with me and ask them to write a bunch of bull about me just because we were graduating.
Then a funny thing happened. One of the girls I had know from elementary school came up and asked if she could sign my yearbook. She was really popular, and we had had a few classes together but we were far from friends. When I told her I didn't have a yearbook she got embarrassed and asked me to bring her mine if I changed my mind about buying one.
As she walked away she stopped, and steeled herself....then she told me why she wanted to sign it. About a year before I had been walking to class after a bell and I ran into her in a lobby. She had been crying, and I almost walked right by....she was no friend of mine, and had been rude to me in the past....but I stopped and asked if she was OK. She started bawling again, and I went over to her to see what was wrong. She was sobbing as she told me...her grandpa had just died the day before, and when she got to school her boyfriend of 3 years had broken up with her to date her friend.
I didn't know what to say, so I just listened. I remember thinking that it was a good thing I had a hall pass or I would get in trouble for being late, and I was a little resentful because she really had not been all that nice to me in the past. But what really mattered was that she was hurting, the same way I had been hurting when my Grandpa died years ago..so I did what I could.
The next day it was as if it had never happened. She wasn't ever mean to me, but we we not friends, nor did we ever really talk again....until the yearbook incident.
I had that happen over and over again. People I had not really ever known came u to me and wanted to sign my yearbook. I got a little defensive because I didn't have one, and the reasons people wanted me to sign there books amazed me.
The one thing that came up over and over again was the fact that I didn't belong to any one click, but that I had friends from all over the school. The Captain of the football team came over because he and I use to meet up to play video games at the local video game parlor all the time. Half the cheer leading squad came over...I had helped one of their friends pass English, and it turned out that one of them had had a crush on me for a year....not that I had ever known...lol...
All my really good friends came over, and they loved the fact that sometimes I would sit with my band friends, some of whom were popular, and sometimes I would sit with them..at the not so popular table.
And the whole time I felt weird because I didn't feel I had fit in at either table. What I felt was a weakness other people came up to me and praised as something worthwhile, and something that they had wished they had done.
When push comes to shove, we are all weird in our own way I guess....
Hatrack is like that to me...I can pun away with Bob, offer support and love to Mack and Nate, debate with TomD, ask (and answer) questions with Sara Sasse.......and here there are no tables that you HAVE to eat at, no click that you MUST be in to be cool. Rather there are a ton of clicks, and you can be in as many or as few of them as you wish.
Sure there are clicks, and people who have known each other a while often have a rapport with each other that can be difficult for a noob to breach... But after you take the time to get to know the place it feels like home. I have never had that experience on-line before, and it felt weird at first.
But now I wouldn't trade it for anything, or anywhere else I have been on the net. It isn't just a web site, I have made it part of MY click, My life, and it is every bit as real as my other non-Hatrack friends.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I like Hatrack. I don't use it as a substitute for "real" life, but it's an awfully nice addition.
When the kids are in school, I'm home alone all day. I dislike talking on the phone. I've moved twice in the last 9 months. Most of my friends are an hour and a half away. Hatrack provides me with a ton of instant friends, most of whom are witty and fun.
Not only have I moved a lot lately, but to be honest I completely suck at making friends in real life. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find a quirky, intelligent woman my age in a town of 600 people - half of which attend the local elementary school? I'll be scanning the ranks of the new PTO the next meeting, but I don't have any high hopes.
I didn't want to tell you before, Kama, but I can tell your stench from half-way across the world and ten time zones.
Tom,
I just don't think that what is done on hatrack is of the greatest importance or at the highest level. There is something to be said when the host doesn't post here because it's a waste of time.
Sure, maintaining a hatrack community is more virtuous than merely chatting, and it's more fulfilling than going to a superbowl party, but it's still a made for television hobby. It's at best, second best to real study and real community. But on the upside, it's always there, at night and in the morning.
Kwea,
I'm a snob. As much as I'm part of the community, I do think that there is something essentially mediocre about wading through everyone's partially informed and scantily thought opinion, and conferring some sense of dignity upon that opinion for no other reason than it's on hatrack. A community is a precious thing, but what seperates community for the sake of community, and a clan or a gang?
Actually, your definition is deprived and poor. My definition allows me to find community in places you are evidently incapable of or unwilling to do so. So I get communities in all the places you can, but also here.
posted
One of the things I like about Hatrack is the diversity of people I meet here. I know people in different countries--on different continents, even--different jobs, different religions, different age groups, etc etc etc. Most people meet their "real life" friends at work, on their block, and at Church. In all three settings, you tend to meet people exactly like you. I see that as richness of Hatrack.
In my case, many of my hatrack friends have become my real life friends. Bob and I hung out on a regular basis when he lived here, and I am pleased as punch to be in his wedding party. I should feel worse about this interaction because I met him online instead of in a bar? How bizarre.
In what way is what I have said "self-satisfied"? People are jumping on you because of that phrase. It's possible I misinterpreted Squicky--or it's possible I correctly identified a prejudice he was not aware that he had--but nobody can possibly misinterpret you, because you have been quite overtly judgmental.
posted
The funny part about that Irami is that quite often that barely informed opinion is yours. You post here, and there have been plenty of times when I have not agreed with you....but I still like to hear from you once and a while because you have a different outlook on things. One that I may not have heard without Hatrack.
If you really think it is a "made for TV" atmosphere that is, once again, your problem. I think you can get as much or as little out of here as you want.
But you don't have to wade through anything here unless you want to, and if we bore you that much I can't see why you would bother.
I don't think everything here is high culture...but if I want to discuss a Broadway play or an Opera I have just listened to, I can probably find some people here who have heard it as well. Try doing that at a bowling alley, or watching TV.
There are some people think that the "The Da Vinci Code," is a wonderful compelling tale, I say it's fluff whose success degrades the entire literary genre and shows the poverty of the American reading public. I imagine that much of reality television is similarly blessed.
Maybe I'm an elitist. Maybe I'm a man who likes things just so, but there is a virtue in having discrimating tastes for worthwhile endeavors.
Kama,
The devil tempts in mysterious ways, first in the guise of a snake then a scandinavian. Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
But a lot of people here would tell you that it wasn't a good book....that is the cool part, that there are people here that hold all sorts of ideas and opinions that you might not see IRL because there is a higher diversity level here.
And not just about books.
Besides, without Hatrack I would have never met Kama, so .....
posted
Irami - Ugh. Your pride in your snobbery gets worse as you get older.
Tell me. In the world of self-improvement and personal growth that you wildly wish everyone would participate in, how does alienating those around you with your manner of presentation fit in? You must see that your snobbery is, at best, counterproductive for both those you hope to help, and for your own growth.
edit: Oh, and these kinds of comments, "Maybe I'm a man who likes things just so, but there is a virtue in having discrimating tastes for worthwhile endeavors" are the height of emotional masturbation. Just FYI.
posted
On one hand, I agree with Irami in that online-only communities will always lack at least four of the five senses, and therefore by definition even the best online communities cannot live up to the best MeatSpace communitities. (This is in fact a topic about which I've argued with Anne Kate; she does not believe the differences are meaningful, whereas I do.)
Of course, we're not always comparing the best online communities to the best offline communities. We're often comparing one of the best online communities to, say, the community available in a small town in Kansas, or to an unattractive person in an East Coast college town. And this is where Irami's assumption of "convenience" comes in; he believes that many people spend time here because they lack the drive to go out and form better communities for themselves. (This is also where Squicky's assumption comes in, as he sees in our smugness a certain amount of deliberate self-delusion designed to keep us happy with this community when compared to the "richer" alternatives.)
And those may very well be valid criticisms. Certainly some members of Hatrack do use this place as a crutch; we've had a number of people decide that Hatrack was cutting into their real life so much that they dropped off the forum for a time, often following a desperate intervention. Like any hobby, or any social group, it can be used as a substitute for "real" friendship.
But that's only a bad thing if it is NOT in fact a decent substitute for real friendship. Certainly, those people I consider friends in the real world would fit perfectly into Hatrack; most of the people I adore on Hatrack would -- and did, in my experience -- work perfectly well as friends in the real world. I'm attracted to the individuals, not the site; the only reason I didn't follow the "mass exodus" from Hatrack a while back was that enough people I liked stuck around here that I felt it was possible, by not following the fleeing crowds, to lure 'em back someday -- which, given how much more likely this site is to survive and to attract new blood than any individual poster's site, a preferable long-term solution. (Note: that appears to have worked, to some extent.)
Perhaps I've gotten lucky, living in a region fairly full of other Hatrackers that we manage to see pretty often -- but last I heard, neither Irami nor Squicky are particularly far from any of the MeatSpace clumps, either. So why do they consider Hatrackers to be "internet" acquaintances? I certainly, for example, do not consider Sara, Julie, or Dan to be "internet" friends.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:There are some people think that the "The Da Vinci Code," is a wonderful compelling tale, I say it's fluff whose success degrades the entire literary genre and shows the poverty of the American reading public. I imagine that much of reality television is similarly blessed.
Maybe I'm an elitist. Maybe I'm a man who likes things just so, but there is a virtue in having discrimating tastes for worthwhile endeavors.
And this has what, exactly, to do with your incapacity for experiencing genuine community outside your cramped little paradigm? Is it that people who like substandard literature aren't worth forming communities with? Then you're likely missing out on a lot of other experiences.
Either Hatrack meets your discriminating tastes, or you're slumming. Which is it?
posted
See, I've got a little different point of view on this. In real life, I don't have a large circle of friends, or even acquaintances... if I totalled all the people up that I talk with on a regular basis, it probably numbers about 50-60. Of those, there actually is a pretty high percent of very intelligent, thoughtful people.
The thing is, on hatrack, there are thousands of people. Even if the percent of intelligent, thoughtful people were very small, there would still be more of them than in my circle of friends - and with a broader range of backgrounds and life experiences.
And so, I come here to read and listen to different perspectives, and occasionally comment myself.
Do I value the hatrack community more than my real life friends? Not at all. But so many of the people I work with or casually meet want to talk about amazingly trivial things that hold no interest for me. At least on hatrack, I can skip over those threads and selectively read the ones that pique my interest.
So, yes, hatrack has spoiled me somewhat. I wish that my RL conversations could be as consistently stimulating, but remember, I'm alone in a room with 13 year olds for most of every day, and alone in a car for almost two hours a day on top of that.
And Tom, I am one of those people who comes to this site for reasons of finding intelligent discourse - and not much else. I've never considered myself part of the community proper, in the sense that I avoid all the marriage/baby/personal threads, and you won't see a landmark thread from me (nor have I read any). I come here almost exclusively to discuss ideas, or to crack wise in more fluff-type atmospheres.
I'm not saying that's all the website is good for, but that's what works for me. And I don't begrudge people who come to Star Trek simply because it's a "star space thingy", either. Everyone has their own list of reasons for being here - the sense of community is higher on some lists than others.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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