posted
"And Tom, I am one of those people who comes to this site for reasons of finding intelligent discourse - and not much else."
Hey, no problem. You get what you put in. But keep in mind that you got a date or two out of all this "intelligent discourse," though. While it may not have turned out ideally, and while that was almost certainly not an underlying goal of yours, it's worth nothing that at least some community spirit snuck through. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I've always found it odd when people say that one of their friends would make a good Hatracker. I tend to take the opposite point of view, there are some Hatrackers that I think would make great friends.
For me, Hatrack is enjoyable because there are some funny, smart, polite, etc. people who are available to me whenever I want them and whenever it's convenient. I just turn on the computer and there they are. But lets face it, if I had to devote real time and travel to come to the Hatrack living room it wouldn't be worth it to me to do so.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Some of them started as Internet friends, but now that I have met them there isn't a difference between them and RL friends.
Mack, Myr, Mike, Suneun.....those are just a few of the people I have met here at Hatrack that I consider friends....not that they are really close ones. I don't know them all that well compared to some of my other friends, but I know them a lot better than most people I have only seen face to face two or three times.
Suneun and Mike are really close, but they know each other IRL and do things together all the time IRL. Mack and Nate...well, you know.... so there IS a difference between knowing people on-line and knowing them only through Hatrack.
But I find that Hatrack enriches my life, makes it better. It is a place where I can "go" at night when I can't sleep...my wife can find me, I am still at home, but I don't have to sit there staring at the walls or the TV.
Like anything, too much Hatracking can cause problems...but then so can too much food, sex, beer, billiards (take my word on this one), and any number of things.
That is the beauty of Hatrack to me...I don't work today until 1 pm, so I sat here and got pratice typing, and writing, and now that I have to go to work I can stop....and pick up the same thread when I get home tonight...if I choose to do so that is... So part of it IS the convienence of it, but it is more than that to me. It is my favorite web site, and I have made friends IRL from here that I will always remember.
When is the last time that happened watching TV, Irami?
There are all manners of sin and fetish accepted not because they are especially good, but because they aren't particularly bad for the people involved.
As an aside, I think this is rooted in my understanding that there is a body of morally arbitrary kinky habits that are okay for some people but are mistakes for others. The same goes the other way, equally amoral habits are unacceptable as a matter of culture, not of anything deeper or truer.
I'm not sure so sure that hatrack isn't one of them. I'm not so sure that hatrack is any different than tipping cows, trashcanning freshman, playing computer games, smoking pot, doing math, or watching football. That we have the luxury to engage in the board with impunity doesn't mean that we should exalt Hatrack to a status the board does not deserve.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
For what it's worth, I am looking forward to the possiblity of kwea and JenniK moving to my area. I think they would make great friends. Posts: 1001 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
And actually, Tom, that drove me away from the website for nearly three months. I was *this close* to making my 1000 landmark be a "leave me the hell alone" thread, but instead, I just left - and got lumped in with the mass exodus that happened at the same time.
More and more people were calling me by my real name and IMing me out of the blue. I was so overrun by community that I couldn't take it anymore, even after the relationship ended (which, incidentally, was essentially set in motion by Olivia, who I knew pre-hatrack in real life). The community had spoiled my interest in the site, and I left long enough for it to cool down.
posted
"The legend of your beauty and wantonness has spread throughout the internet."
Bah! Beauty, perhaps -- but her wantonness is vastly overrated. Toni promised me a hug and a butt pat four years ago and still hasn't delivered. Some wench she is.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
You know, that was a response to Dag, but it seems to fit in pretty well anywhere. In fact, I think I'm going to start inserting it in random threads . . .
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Irami - Your point is that not all things lawful are necessarily advantageous. If you notice, I didn't disagree with your point. But from where I'm sitting your manner of expressing your point has become, over time, that much more unpalatable.
As in competition, I believe you mean to help everyone achieve their own level of excellence simply by trying to exude your own excellence. You take pride in your 'snobbery'. (Which I don't think, deep down, you are. Unless it's a reverse snobbery.) You refer to your own elitism. You trash things that are well accepted as entertainment because they do not meet your rigid standards of movie eugenics. EVERYTHING must have a defined purpose and message and it MUST be for the betterment of everyone and everything. And probably because of this device, lately when I read your words they lack the same passion and conviction I know you are intending them to have. From my perspective they seem almost contrived, because the agenda is clear: make everyone think you're REALLY REALLY smart and inspire them to find their inner REALLY REALLY smart guy.
You are highly intelligent, articulate, introspective, and frequently have a solid handle on the big picture. But you're never going to inspire people if you just keep reestablishing those facts, and especially if you do so in an off-putting manner. Elitism is always off-putting, plain and simple. It will never inspire, it will always be unattractive. And, at the end of the day, you're just a snob.
I admit that I could be completely off base here, but that is how I perceive it.
posted
Actually Ralphie, I guess I'm a reverse snob when it comes to Irami. I'm glad I don't live in his insipid rigidly defined world and I pity him that he does.
AJ
(hee hee, this post was #69 in the thread, I do get a wicked bit of glee every time that happens)
quote:Actually Ralphie, I guess I'm a reverse snob when it comes to Irami. I'm glad I don't live in his insipid rigidly defined world and I pity him that he does.
But I don't remember it being quite like this before, and I'm wondering at what point Irami embraced the concept of snobbery.
posted
I haven't noticed much change in Irami in the three years I've been here... except perhaps for an increasing density of SAT words in his posts.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
He's changed a bit. He certainly stopped joking about stuff, which I really miss; at least 80% of someone's personality, as far as I'm concerned, is their sense of humor. Without it, they may as well be bank tellers for all the human interaction I'm going to get from them.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Ralphie, you've been here longer, so I'll take your word for it. I like debating with Irami, and he's done cool stuff like the bike trip, but I don't understand his worldview at all. And I can't chalk it up to an ethnic misunderstanding either, considering that my own boyfriend is black-cuban and about as opposite from Irami in worldview as they come.
posted
When white people play grab ass, it's permissable. It's hatrack. It's star trek conventions, hunting, Nascar, and D & D meetings.
When black people play grab ass, it's a waste and the degradation of society by an unfortunate class, that too often leads to prison and children should shield their eyes.
There are big statments being made. When Bush rides roughshod over the world and gets us into a war and is cavalier about not planning it, it's really only a short step for kids to take that mentality to the street. Bush's swagger, or apparently what is called in Texas, "walking," is real close to what we call in Oakland, "the pimp stroll." He is president of the United States, our kids are scared of cops, all for the same BS.
When unskilled inarticulate white businessmen are propelled by the laws of economy, they are somehow seen as virtuous in their pursuit of money-- in a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, sort of way, how am I going to tell unskilled inarticulate black kids not to sell drugs, as there is good money to be made selling happiness is in these times of woe and want? ________ This thing we do here is fine. Books, Films, and American Culture are appropriate topics of conversation. I don't read a lot of the fluff threads, but I don't mind their presence. I enjoy the regional passtime of flirting with Kama. I like most people here, and I adore Sara Sasse, but I fully believe that the people I think are idiots or jackasses here, I'd probably think were idiots or jackasses in real life, and there is no virtue bestowed upon someone for finding the OSC's site. All being on hatrack means is that you have access to a computer and an internet connection, and there are very good people without either and very bad people with both.
For me, the grandest beauty in hatrack is that it's always here. Even if I start a thread and nobody knows what I'm talking about, the ability to start a thread at 3am and know that someone is at least considering what you are saying as truth is a beautiful thing.
quote:you equate tipping cows, math, and Hatrack as equal pursuits??
I almost do. There is a little bit of wonder in all three endeavors, but that wonder is easily trumphed by the banality of the exercise.
posted
Not many people in real life share the interests I have. I spend a lot of my time censoring what I say so others will understand, or sniggering at comments that no one else knows or cares about.
My real-life friends are wonderful people, but not one of them cares one jot about science fiction.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
"There is a little bit of wonder in all three endeavors, but that wonder is easily trumphed by the banality of the exercise."
Irami, I anticipate the day when you realize that this observation applies to virtually every enjoyable pursuit in life.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: When unskilled inarticulate white businessmen are propelled by the laws of economy, they are somehow seen as virtuous in their pursuit of money-- in a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, sort of way, how am I going to tell unskilled inarticulate black kids not to sell drugs, as there is good money to be made selling happiness is in these times of woe and want?
Yeah right, my bf spent time living with a single mother in the projects. Guess what, he earned a scholarship, and has a job now, being a productive member of society, helping engineer and build the roads that everyone uses. If you can't be a good enough role model for your black kids in the projects, I can introduce you to him, so you have a success story. Actually his father (after the rocky early divorce he did pay child support) is a success story too and is now a high school principal among other things.
Give me a break...
AJ
(Like I said I realize I have a fundamentally different worldview from Irami. Incidentally I, who I'm sure Irami would write off just because of my appearance also grew up in a ghetto, though not quite the slums and *was* a minority and know *exactly* how it feels being the one who doesn't fit in because of skin color.)
posted
I'm not so sure what your statement has to do with the quote.
I'm not exactly sure what makes it a success story, though? That they have jobs that aren't crimes? Your boyfriend and his father were trained to fill a need in society and they filled their niche. So do drug dealers. It seems as though their training led them to a more acceptable job.
Sigh, like I said, we have entirely different worldviews and I think we talk past each other. You start out by teaching them the dignity and value of hard work and education, by demonstrating it by example. That it doesn't matter what rich crooks do. That you can work and be reasonably sucessful without selling out to the white criminals. Be a Jamie Escalante to your black ghetto kids not a downer saying that the "white" world is against them.
In the corporate climates that I work in, a minority or female with an engineer or MBA is worth their weight in gold, because the companies *want* to be inclusive but don't have people to include!
The kids aren't dumb, yeah they see the drug dealers with money but they also see the violence etc that drugs bring. They live with it. If they could see a way *besides* drug dealing at least a few of them would take it.
posted
It is interesting in my bf's own family. Steve's grandfather was a truck driver. Had a bunch (5?) of kids. All of them have college educations His oldest two children (one of which is Steve's father) are moderately sucessful, will have a comfortable living in retirement. The younger three are some of the most educated welfare mothers you will ever see. Somewhere along the way in their own family, the dignity of work got lost. The oldest two still can't figure out what happened to the younger siblings.
Steve is one of the only college graduates in the third generation.
It's quite sad, really. But his father won't even tell the other assorted aunts and cousins, where Steve is or what he's doing, because he wants to protect Steve from the begging for handouts that goes on from able-bodied people who refuse to work. (though as far as I know they aren't drug dealers either)
posted
I don't want to lie to them. I don't know if there is a dignity in hard work, even if there seems to be a darn good value. Value as in currency, and there is currency to be had studying engineering and money. There is also currency to be had working hard in quite a few other enterprises, moral and immoral.
The dignity isn't in the hard work, it's in the thought and attention. Take The Da Vinci Code Code on one hand, and Salinger's short story Franny on the other. I don't know who worked harder. Franny is only 40 pages, and the Da Vinci Code is just short of 400. It couldn't of been easy plotting and scambling to research and invent all of that information, I can tell you that the dignity displayed in Salinger's Franny surpasses anything in Brown's book.
posted
Irami, I don't know if you want to be holding up Salinger as an example of dignity and discernment. He's a vastly overrated "auteur."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: More and more people were calling me by my real name and IMing me out of the blue. I was so overrun by community that I couldn't take it anymore
*removes from AIM buddy list*
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I think that's our fundamental disagreement then Irami. I believe there *is* dignity inherent to hard [physical] work. I think the migrant farm workers picking strawberries in the fields of CA, have more dignity than I do in my cushy office at my computer. *shrug* It's just what I believe, I guess it is faith even if non-theological in nature.
AJ
I also think you will see this same dignity displayed in the often highly educated, but monetarily poor farmers, in the midwest as well. (My primary acquaintance is with Okies, but I know some Kansans too )
posted
I'm not well versed in authors, and I've never read "Franny" but my first thought was Whitman working his butt off in the medical tents during the Civil War. I don't think without that experience with hard work he could have ever heard America singing.
AJ
(My primary beef with the DaVinci Code is its ending which is wholly unsatisfying and trite even for light reading; I'd contrast it with the movie National Treasure which was equally fluffy but had a more coherent wrapped up ending, IMO.)
quote:I believe there *is* dignity inherent to hard work. I think the migrant farm workers picking strawberries in the fields of CA, have more dignity than I do in my cushy office at my computer.
and
quote:In the corporate climates that I work in, a minority or female with an engineer or MBA is worth their weight in gold, because the companies *want* to be inclusive but don't have people to include!
I'm sure that's true, but question is, and this is a big one, so what? It's always been laughable that integration in the United States means that, to a large degree, everyone is supposed to accept the cultural priorities of anglophones. It's as if deep down, we are all texans. Though when Clinton was President, I think he thought that if we did enough scrubbing, everyone would be from Indiana. (I know he was from Arkansas, but I got the feeling he thought everyone else was from Indiana.) We are still waiting for the Iraqies to become Texans, but it may take a while.
Why should these kids want to be corporate VPs? I'm not so sure there is a dignity in that, and I don't think I'm alone in seeing the discrepancy. It's a crazy assumption, rich with implications.
posted
Well getting *through* engineering school IS hard work, even if it means the rest of your life is easier.
I don't really see the contradiction. There is dignity in hard physical work. There is dignity in mental work. Both can yield honest livings entirely outside of the "white mans world" stuff. I'm not saying you have to aspire to the *white* way of living your life. I'm saying you have earned an honest day's wage, and can provide a roof over your head and food on the table. I think that is the beginning in *any* culture.
I'm not entirely into Maslow's hierarchy but kind of that direction. Even the migrant farm workers have longer lifespans than when we were in the plains of Africa as hunter/gatherers. The migrant farm workers are to a person sending money back to their families in Mexico. There is dignity and worth in that, knowing they are helping other people.
Though if you truly don't believe you can succeed honestly in life, then yes, all you have to offer to your ghetto kids is despair. I believe you can suceed without buying into the anglophone culture, I'm sorry you don't.
posted
Also, why wouldn't you want these kids to become corporate VP's? Isn't it possible they could bring more humanity and de-anglicize the corporate culture? Humanity is nothing without hope. I think even Tom Davidson would agree with me there. Why can't you give these kids hope of a better life without being drug dealers?
posted
Quid, was the "whatever" directed at me or Irami? I think that even though it is awful and messy the people that are helping with the cleanup efforts are also to be admired and *are* heroes, even if they haven't done all the prerequisite thinking that Irami requires of his heros.
posted
Yeah there are two definitions of sucess here. I believe *both* are true, but the sucess of someone having dignity (not pride) is larger than the monetary sucess. However I believe honest monetary sucess is possible as well.
posted
Sorry, Banna. You must have posted mere microseconds before me. That *whatever* was directed at Irami. The whole pseudo-intellectual discourse is boring me. And it's pointless.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
All right then have them be a corporate President and an honest one! The good people *do* exist out there. But they aren't necessarily pushing themselves into the limelight either. You're always going to see more of the crappy ones like Michael Powell cause they are the ones who are hungry for the publicity.
AJ
(It's like Dagonee, proving that there are good and honest lawyers out there, and probably more that are than aren't. You just don't hear about them cause the honest ones are too busy doing their job!)
posted
"And I'm not sure that being a VP is something worth being."
The great thing -- and I am completely serious about this -- about being American is that every single schoolkid in this country gets to decide whether they agree with you on this topic, Irami.
Some will conclude that being a VP is something worth being, regardless of their skin color. And some will not, again regardless of their skin color. And since not everyone wants to be a VP, not everyone will be a VP, and that will be okay. But as long as the ones who want to be VPs have the opportunity to become VPs, we're doing all right.
posted
I worry that the decisions about what one can be do have distinctions that fall along lines of color, though, even if some buck the trend.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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While it may not have turned out ideally, and while that was almost certainly not an underlying goal of yours, it's worth nothing that at least some community spirit snuck through. 
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Whatever.
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