posted
There are things about my church that we attend that I love. And there are things that get under my skin and irritate me to no end.
Now, I'm not naive, no church is perfect, because it's made of people and people aren't perfect. I'm not looking for someplace that will be everything I want it to be. But we've been talking about what would constitute a good enough reason to leave. By we I mean my husband and I.
Should a church member be under the obligation to stay and work things out no matter what? What if one family member wants to leave but no one else does? Is that family member being selfish by insisting everybody else change churches? Can family members go to different churches? I believe the answer to that is no.
Should you stay at a church if their stated doctrine is no longer what you believe? Must you agree with all of the doctrinal statement to remain a member? Or is it only important for the leaders and church officers to adhere strictly to the doctrine, allowing a little more liberty in the beliefs of the congregation?
Yet, does that mean if you ever feel called by God to assume a leadership role in that church, you would then have to turn it down because you can't agree with the doctrine?
The reason I ask these questions is we're in a stage of transistion in our church. We're searching for a permanent pastor, ours has moved on. Yet, there is disagreement among the church leadership as to what the doctrinal statement should say, and some are advocating changing our stated doctrine. Others want to keep it the same. Our search committee that is interviewing new pastors, is made up of people from both sides. That is of course, causing inconsistency and confusion, and complicating our search for a pastor.
I'm not looking for anyone here to tell me what to do, as it's a decision only my husband and I can make and one we cannot make without extensive prayer and thought going into it. I'm just interested in hearing others' opinions on the questions I raised above.
[ January 12, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
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posted
Do you have a belief of the headship of the husband? To reiterate what I said on the Goody Maker thread, headship of a husband only applies where the husband is in alignment with God.
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posted
I believe my husband is the spiritual head of our home, and ultimately the decision to stay or go will rest with him - but he believes in the family being united together in their beliefs and where they go to church, so if I were insistent that I believed God was telling me it was time to move on, we would move on.
But we're not at that point. We're still in the stage of prayer and careful consideration of all options.
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posted
Do you have any kind of a covenant with this church, like through baptism or something? I don't know how that works with other churches. I mean, for our church we realize the covenant is only as important as it is to the person who made it.
I know that in a lot of Christian churches, they consider one another's baptisms to be acceptable. I did have a friend whose "Mormon" baptism was accepted in on Baptist congregation and not in another.
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posted
Sounds like you are already doing one of the best things and that is praying about it. Read the scriptures together and pray together as a family and ask specificly what you should do. Then take a moment to listen. Then discuss how you both feel. If you still feel that maybe you need to be looking for another church then start looking into them praying together over each. That's the best advice I can give. God knows everything and knows the best place for and your family and if you study and pray he'll answer you.
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quote: Should you stay at a church if their stated doctrine is no longer what you believe? Must you agree with all of the doctrinal statement to remain a member? Or is it only important for the leaders and church officers to adhere strictly to the doctrine, allowing a little more liberty in the beliefs of the congregation?
Yet, does that mean if you ever feel called by God to assume a leadership role in that church, you would then have to turn it down because you can't agree with the doctrine?
My church has doctrines that I struggle to accept. I suppose the headship of the husband could be one. I mean, can't we go by ACT scores?
Is this doctrinal problem anti-biblical in your view? If so, you should leave the church. If it is biblical (0r in my case, canonical) I would consider it my opportunity to make room for it in my heart.
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If it's over doctrinal issues, I'd only feel right about leaving if I'd gone to the pastor and discussed it with him first. But truthfully, my criteria for a church isn't based in doctrine. It's based in leadership. Is the leadership genuinely humble before God and congregation? Is the purpose of their leadership to spread the love of Christ to any and all, in accordance with Scripture? If so, I could probably go to that church.
But I can't decide just for myself. My husband is less picky than I am and says he could go to any church and be happy as long as it was biblically based. But it's very important to me that my son like church, so I'd want one with a good youth ministry. If my son suddenly hated church, I'd probably start church shopping if I thought it would do any good.
Your situation doesn't sound like much fun. Changing leadership is bound to shake things up. I'm sorry to hear you're struggling with it.
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quote:But truthfully, my criteria for a church isn't based in doctrine. It's based in leadership. Is the leadership genuinely humble before God and congregation? Is the purpose of their leadership to spread the love of Christ to any and all, in accordance with Scripture?
I wouldn't consider attitude outside of the scope of doctrine, jen. It's pretty heavily stressed all the way through the New Testament. However, I think the New Testament also makes the point that the spirit of the law cannot stand without the letter of the law. I believe in both.
Reminds me of an urban legend about some people who felt that the true test of spirituality would be to sin (in particular, adultery) without having lust in their hearts. Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Hmm, I'm a veteran of changing churches because my parents decided to leave their current church. All of the churches listed below were in the same geographic area. None of the departures were because we moved or anything. They are still in the same house that they were in there. I don't know how much the sequence below relates to my current stance on my parents churches or not, but I definitely think that the fact that my parents can't find a church they like for any length of time causes me to lose faith somewhat in the entire system, even if yes everyone in the system is human.
Church #1 My parents had moved to the area fairly recently and went there 4-5 years. They were very involved in bible studies childrens programs etc. Dad's boss at the time was going there, boss was on the board of trustees. Dad knew his boss was basically a crook and was in the process of changing jobs himself as a result. Dad told off the church leadership for being so blind to trust a crook and we left. 15+ years later the boss was indited on a bunch of felonies. Dad was just outside the statute of limitations so they didn't go interviewing him. I was too little to really know much of what was going on, but I remember crying because it was change and my parents were upset.
Church #2. This was the church I remember for most of my childhood. We went there 8 years. Dad was on the elder board, they kicked out the pastor (who had moved in across the street from us and whose daughter was my best friend) Duplicity with some marital counseling sessions which is what brought it to a head. Basically he was telling both sides of the quarreling couple what they wanted to hear, not realizing it was exact opposite advice to each party. This caused a massive church split. A lot of those people ended up going to church #1 but not really the ones that had left #1 for #2.
A bunch of people from Church #1 had started going to Church #2 in the mean time. There was a series of interm pastors, several quite good, and then they finally (after like 3 years) found a new pastor. The new pastor, though everything else checked out initially, got into a brand of Covenant theology that many people (my parent more than most) didn't agree with. The others really didn't realize that it was a departure in doctrine (though not really outside the doctrinal statment) and ate it up. Dad quietly stepped down from the leadership because he didn't want to cause another church split and eventually they stopped going to that church, though they continued helping with the weeknight youth program for a while.
From a kids perspective this church was one of the few places where I actually had social status. It was partly because of my father but partly because of me, I was the one who knew the answers and in this group that was encouraged. I was very grieved over the departure of my friend and blamed myself even though in hindsight it had nothing to do with me.
Then we went to church #3.(6ish years) They never actually joined church #3 because the doctrinal statement wasn't quite tight enough. It was a community church with more acceptance of varying doctrinal stands (probably one of the reasons they accepted my parents) We lived to far away (40 minutes) for me to become truly active in the youth program. Also I wasn't part of the area sub-community and as a result the only friends my own age I had were some people previously from church #1. And they were too caught up in their own lives and it was junior high. I made friends among the senior citizens who loved me. My brothers were more accepted than I ever was. The pastor at that church that my parents liked, retired, and there were once again a couple of interm pastors that were good. I went to college during this time. While I was gone my parents faded out of #3 and started attending Church #4. I always made at least a few trips to Church #3 while I was home. My parents didn't mind.
Church #4 in some ways is a repeat of Church #2. Most of the people from churches #1 and #2 that were friends of my parents have ended up at church #4. I have connections with those people, but not as much with the people who actualy had deeper historical roots at Church #4. They went to #4 both because of mostly sound doctrine and because of the solid youth program for my brothers who also had friends there.
They'll probably stay with #4 until that pastor retires, then who knows...
posted
Well, I'm not married nor in a relantionship at the moment, so take my advice as "theory" only.
quote: Now, I'm not naive, no church is perfect, because it's made of people and people aren't perfect. I'm not looking for someplace that will be everything I want it to be. But we've been talking about what would constitute a good enough reason to leave. By we I mean my husband and I.
If I understand this right, you have found a reason, and he hasn't. What does he think of your reason? Is it possible that it is only a temporary thing? I'm glad you're both giving it more thought instead of rushing into the decission.
quote: Should a church member be under the obligation to stay and work things out no matter what?
Free will. You get to choose whether you believe or not, whether you want to be a part of a church or another. You also get to choose if what you said constitutes an obligation for you, but I think you're already pretty sure it's not.
quote: Is that family member being selfish by insisting everybody else change churches? Can family members go to different churches?
What would be the opposite?! If you believe your current church is not suitable for you - is not "the true church" - would it be better to go on as a part of what you think is a lie?! And I don't think that all the members of a family must go to the same church. And yes, it's selfish, and no different than insisting that all "remain" at the same church! Not being in a church doesn't mean you have no respect for it or for the people who think it suitable for them. It's a personal problem, that's all.
My ex-girlfriend is an Orthodox Christian, and I'm an agnostic atheist - or something. Before we were together we got to talk about God, church and things like this and she's not very comfortable with this kind of discussions, so naturally I tried to avoid them while we were together. Our break-up had nothing to do with this. How long have you been married? I'm asking this because I don't think the options are either go to the same church or break up the marriage. The moments you have shared this far surely count more than the religion each of you chooses to follow, don't they? Then again, being a non-believer I don't know exactly how important religion is in someone's life/relationships.
quote: Must you agree with all of the doctrinal statement to remain a member?
You've said it yourself, churches aren't perfect, so I think that while you have to strive to understand the entire doctrine failure to fully do so isn't THAT important (or possible for that matter). However, having a power position in that church while having - what seem to be - important problems with the doctrine is a no-no in my opinion. Unless you want to reform it, of course, but be sure that you know what you're getting yourself into!
quote: I'm not looking for anyone here to tell me what to do
Nobody will or CAN tell you what to do. You're a big girl, we know you'll figure it out! Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Note, the only churches my parents were 'members' of were #1 and #2.
I think everything else since they are in the 'regular attender' category. They've gotten pretty badly burned by "membership" though I don't think it is as big of a deal as it used to be. My understanding is that they split their tithe between private missions contributions and whatever church they were attending at the moment. If they were in transition over a church then the missionaries would get extra or they'd do specific donations to other causes.
posted
Well, I must confess that part of the struggle here is my personal feelings.
I feel like I've been rejected by the leadership of this church more than once when I tried to serve. Over a period of five years I've tried very hard to get involved in some specific ministry opportunities and been rebuffed. Many times the excuse was that they just didn't think the timing was right, but twice they've allowed someone else to do the exact same things I was proposing. Which, if they didn't feel I was right for the project, that would be fine, but no one has ever said that to me. They've simply passed over me, ignored me, and given the responsibilities to someone else.
Other times I've expressed interest in something (like helping start up a drama team with the youth, and I'd even written a couple of plays and given them to the leadership) and been rejected - or ignored. Then, the church leadership allowed some people to get together and form a drama team without ever opening it up to let others interested, like me, get involved. That one particularly hurt, because three of the people who formed the drama team had spoken with me personally about how they wanted to do it "in the future" and I shared with them my visions and ideas and gave them plays that I'd written. But they didn't invite me to take part. They didn't invite anyone to take part, actually, and I know I wasn't the only person who felt a little left out. Including a young woman who is presently a theater major in college, and wanted to do this very badly, she too felt very hurt and rejected.
Now, that's a personal issue. It's between me and other people, not between me and God. But, I feel like I've done my best to get involved in many different things (I also wanted to re-do our church library, and was told to go ahead by our church leadership, yet when the time came to submit my plans for 2005, I turned them in only to have the acting pastor come and tell me that a library was just not something the church really needed after all.) In everything I've been rejected, and I've gotten to the point that I DO take it personally, it hurts. I've spent more than my share of nights crying myself to sleep over it lately. I'm really getting a bit tired of it actually, and as you can imagine it's very hard to get myself out of bed on Sunday mornings, when I have so many feelings of rejection and hurt associated with this church.
I feel like the leadership has some reason they don't want me involved in anything, and yet I feel that God does want me to branch out and be more involved in directly ministering to others, but my church isn't giving me the chance to do that.
If you're wondering if I've ever turned down anything they DID ask me to do, the answer is no. I've done things that I didn't feel called to do, things I didn't even enjoy, simply because I wanted to serve, and I know that sometimes God wants us to stretch outside our comfort zone.
But I do feel strongly that when a person has certain spiritual gifts, and God-given talents and abilities, that God intends those gifts and abilities to be used in serving Him. I don't feel like the church is giving me the opportunity to do so many of the things I feel led toward. I don't know if that means I should just find somewhere else, that God is leaning on me to take my gifts to another place he has planned for me to use them.
On the flip side - my husband is plugged into this church, he is heavily involved in foreign missions, and my children love it.
So what to do? I feel like if I pressure my husband to leave, I'm being selfish. But my husband says he's tired of seeing me come home from church and cry.
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posted
Well hierarchically, couldn't your husband act as your advocate and discuss the issues with the leadership? How you wish to help but feel like there is no place for you? It seems like he would be the proper intermediate rather than you going directly.
posted
Well, it seems to be a puzzle at this point in time, Belle, because your church itself looks like it is undecided about what it believes (you said your church leadership is divided itself over what the doctrinal statement says) and they don't currently have a strong head pastor to decide it one way or the other (since they are searching for a new pastor).
I would say wait it out and see which side of the fence everything falls when it all settles, then decide if you still feel you can serve in that setting with whoever the new pastor is.
In our sermon yesterday, we were beginning an in-depth study of the book of Romans, and the pastor mentioned that basically any question you have about your life can be answered through the book of Romans. Now, he didn't mean directly or specifically (like you can't go to Romans to ask "should I take that job in New Jersey"), but he was saying if we use the principles taught in Romans as our filter for making our decisions -- or read and study it when questions come to our lives, it will help guide us in making those decisions based on God's principles.
I think what you are doing right now is right, and that you may just need to be patient to see what happens making any decisions. Sometimes these things take time. Remember in I Corinthians 7, the church at Corinth was in an upheaval because of the societal environment, and the soon-coming persecution of the Christian church in that area, and that is why Paul at that time basically told them to hold fast and be content where they were, instead of wondering about greener grass. (totally my interpretation, so don't look for that as a quote there).
Farmgirl
edit: Belle - I wrote this before getting a chance to read your last post -- because I got interrupted while writing it. So it is only in response to your first post.
Actually, he wants to do that, and I've been hesitant. Mainly because I've felt that it was unfair to put my husband on the spot.
I did go myself, directly to the acting pastor and talk about some of this, and was told that my problem was that I wasn't involved enough in Bible studies. The reason I'm not is a function of time, it's impossible to attend a weekly scheduled Bible study when my husband works a shift - there will be nights I just cannot go. Plus, there is the issue of me soon going back to school (this conversation took place before I started the semester).
Yet, because he laid it out as a requirement, I did join a Bible study group and yet nothing has changed. The change of heart about the library and the drama team incident both happened after I joined a regular study.
So I think it was an excuse. There is something else that I can't figure out, and no one appears to want to be forthcoming about. And, at this point, I'm starting to think it's just that they've made a decision based on something that I'm not worthy to serve in some way. That hurts - because I don't know what I've done wrong, and I don't know how to fix it.
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quote: Basically he was telling both sides of the quarreling couple what they wanted to hear, not realizing it was exact opposite advice to each party.
Was this through some kind of anonymous medium or... I'm just really confused by this. But it's a bit off topic anyway. Maybe the couple were inclined to look a the same advice and interpret it in opposing ways.
Belle, why don't you use your talents in volunteer capacities outside the church? If people didn't find a way to like the callings they got rather than insist on the callings they want, our church couldn't exist. Anway, our leadership is always advising us to offer service outside the scope of "church service".
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posted
Farmgirl, thanks. I've tried very hard to follow your advice, I told my husband I would commit to trying to work things out at least until the new pastor is hired.
The doctrinal differences are a puzzle, and my husband is in kind of a tough situation, because he is one of the people the leadership has asked for specific input from.
He and I spent days pouring over the scriptures and forumlating a concise statement in defense of keeping the current doctrine intact.
The leadership seems to be leaning toward changing it though.
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quote:Belle, why don't you use your talents in volunteer capacities outside the church? If people didn't find a way to like the callings they got rather than insist on the callings they want, our church couldn't exist. Anway, our leadership is always advising us to offer service outside the scope of "church service".
Trisha, that is excellent advice that I've tried very hard to follow. I posted a thread a while back about how I was thinking about offering some of my writings and plays online for other churches to use, free of charge.
That's a very reasonable way to look at it, but unfortunately I'm an unreasonable human being sometimes, whose emotions really affect how she looks at things.
I don't know if I can do that, and compeltely lay aside the feelings of hurt and rejection. I've tried, I really have.
I've also spent a not-inconsiderable period of time discussing this with my therapist, who is a Christian counselor associated with a church -based counselling service. She is advising me to pray that my husband may come to support me in my feelings, and that we can be united in looking for a new church.
I have a hard time though, feeling like I'm the "bad guy" and forcing my kids (my oldest daughter especially is plugged into this chuch and very happy there) and my husband to give up something they love.
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posted
Belle if he wants to do it, I think you should let him. If you were pressuring him into it, it would be a different matter. But if their truly is an *spiritual issue* that they aren't addressing with you, directly, (and yeah it sounds like it is) then they are failing in their spiritual leadership to you. Your husband as the direct spiritual leader, not to mention loving you the most, is the one who needs to address it.
I hate to say it but I'm betting you offended somone elses wife(s) without knowing it and she/they are indirectly influencing against you. Probably not even in a mean or petty way, but subconsciously without meaning to.
The only other thing I could think of is that it has something to do with your mental health issues. Dispite confidentiality agreements things can sometimes leak through "christian" organizations faster than the secular variety.(And perhaps they are being brought up as maybe you have enough on your plate with your kids and you aren't strong enough for a more difficult burden.) That would be the worst case scenario. It also could be that you aren't actually *safe* even though you *should* be in confiding your struggles in the church community. And if you are more open about your struggles than other people it is actually once again subconsiously held against you. It is stupid. Spiritual perfectionists should realize that they aren't perfect either, but that's life and we are all human.
Misjudging someone's spirituality in a church setting is extremely easy to do. If you show particular strengths or weaknesses you can be easily misjudged as more or less than you really are. I had it bite me in the butt on the strengths side, because how many bible verses you know or how well you can debate theology says nothing about a person's internal spiritual state.
Reason why I left church #5 that I attended in college: I realized that I was a hypocrite because I wasn't in any way the person the church people thought I was, though I didn't set out to mislead anyone.
posted
Trisha the pastor was doing both individual and joint counseling with the couple. The one on one with each person was where the conflicting statments arose. They even taped him as I recall (and he knew the sessions were being taped) saying one thing to the wife, and then saying the opposite to the husband. It was like he was incapable of holding a single stance on the issue because he was empathizing so deeply with either party he'd agree with them. (In years of hindsight my father came to this conclusion rather than that the pastor was a pathological liar) This was only one of many instances where he'd say exactly what the person he was talking to, wanted to hear, even if he'd said the opposite to someone else shortly before.
I understand seeing both sides of an issue and try to see things from both points of view myself. However, the point is to work on the common ground at the center, not agree with the parts that are in diametric opposition.
posted
OK, AJ now you have me crying (and I know you didn't mean to!) Because I'm so afraid that this is true:
quote:The only other thing I could think of is that it has something to do with your mental health issues. (And perhaps they are being brought up as maybe you have enough on your plate with your kids and you aren't strong enough for a more difficult burden.) That would be the worst case scenario. It also could be that you aren't actually *safe* even though you *should* be in confiding your struggles in the church community. And if you are more open about your struggles than other people it is actually once again subconsiously held against you.
See, I AM open about the struggles I had with ADD and depression, and I am that way precisely because I think too many women, especially Christian women, don't seek help. I think we sometimes do people a disservice in the church - we sometimes lead women to believe that if they're struggling with home and work and children and their own feelings they "just aren't faithful enough"
One of the areas I feel strongly drawn toward is ministering to women, mothers in particular, that feel overwhelmed and need help.
And yet, I think the church has judged that because I have been one of those women in the past, I'm not reliable enough or strong enough to do that.
So who can minister to these women, if we don't want someone who has been on that road and faced her own struggles to do it? In our church, the answer is: We just don't minister to them at all.
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posted
*hugs* I'm sorry Belle. I was analyzing dispassionately and wasn't thinking about how you'd feel about it. I do feel "removed" from the conservative Christian community, and maybe I'm more critical as a result.
But, I think the mental health issues *are* a systemic problem inside a large segment of the conservative Christian community. (Though California conservative Christian churches like #3 were a bit more touchy feely and ok with counselling etc.) You, however, aren't in a state that has as much of a culture of openness about mental health issues to begin with.
*sigh* In a way I'm dealing with this with my own mother at the moment. I need to write it out and post it here or on my LJ. Even in CA, my mother *wasn't* raised there, and it sounds like she's in severe depression and I can't think of a way to convince her to get help, because she's not *supposed* to have problems because she's supposed to trust in God to make it better. And I've become the focus of her misery because I'm in "rebellion". While I appreciate the fact that she loves and cares about me and disagrees with my life choices, I don't think the rational nor correct spiritual response is to weep every day for the past two years. Even King David didn't cry that long and his sons were dead.
posted
You can minister to them in an unofficial capacity, providing succor and support. I think that is an admirable pursuit, but unfortunately one that can't really come from "on high" in the church leadership. Certainly it is all through the scriptures, but the nature of a church is often to train the young and provide validation for male participation in society.
Again, I think the key is to get involved in community ADD or Depression support groups. There are two ways to serve- to be a disorder survivor among the Christians or be a Christian among the Disorder survivors. If people need to go outside church resources to get that help, that's okay.
My novel I wrote is a lot about the issues of mental health recovery and spirituality. There is one list that does the sunday school class rounds, and the church has made multiple official statements that these things have no place in our classes but Satan is hard to fight. It's a list of how to know you have the Spirit and the first one says "If you're not happy you don't have the spirit." Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Belle, I don't think you should minimize the problems you've been having with the church leadership as "a personal issue." It's also a spiritual issue, since it sounds like you feel you are being called to do these things. When your church hinders you in using your gifts to serve others, especially when they make excuses about it, that is a serious problem, not just a personality conflict. At least, that's my opinion.
quote:See, I AM open about the struggles I had with ADD and depression, and I am that way precisely because I think too many women, especially Christian women, don't seek help. I think we sometimes do people a disservice in the church - we sometimes lead women to believe that if they're struggling with home and work and children and their own feelings they "just aren't faithful enough"
Thank you for doing that. It took awhile to stop feeling guilty about my own illness, and I think it might have been easier if there had been many other women in the church who were open about having depression and being treated for it. Also, the more people who come forward and talk about it, the more acceptable it will to have a mental illness and discuss it freely.
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posted
Belle, as I was reading your posts, I thought to myself, "Belle should find a new church."
Obviously I cannot offer the best insights, as I'm Jewish, but everything that AJ is saying makes sense to me.
quote:I have a hard time though, feeling like I'm the "bad guy" and forcing my kids (my oldest daughter especially is plugged into this chuch and very happy there) and my husband to give up something they love.
quote:So who can minister to these women, if we don't want someone who has been on that road and faced her own struggles to do it? In our church, the answer is: We just don't minister to them at all.
I don't think you're a bad guy in any way here, Belle. You're not suddenly yanking your family out of the church for some petty reason, you're agonizing over leaving after (what seems like to me) years of being unfairly ignored and rebuffed. Yes, your daughter is happy there now, but what if she grows up to become one of the women who need that special kind of ministering? How will she feel when there is no one in the church to turn to?
I know it's hard to leave a church (we have to leave our shul when we move and I'm already sad about it), but your family can be just as happy or even happier at another one.
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posted
Another related thought (and this is getting to the heart of a lot of my own issues). There were three families who were very close to each other and homeschooled their kids together while I was growing up. A total of 8 children, of these three families, at least half the children have lost faith to varying degrees. All three of the girls, myself included, have been diagnosed with depression at some point during college. I think all of three of us have been medicated at one point or another. Our mothers eventually did agree on medicating us (though two of us were old enough to request medication and then notify them of our decision.)
But now, when we look at 2 out of the 3 mothers. It would appear that they are pretty darn close to clinically depressed themselves. (Don't have data on the third.) I think it is this whole drive for perfection and because you have God you are *supposed* to Be Happy whether you actually ever are or not. (Fortunately I had a wise mentor from church #3 that told me repeatedly that God created our feelings too.)
And when we the "lost faith" group discuss among ourselves why we did, one of the things that always comes up is the fact that we weren't allowed to be sad, yet no one was actually happy most of the time. The consensus is that my family was actually the healthiest in that regard, probably because a sense of humor was allowed in my family. In otherwords a near complete disregard of the validity of one's feelings and emotions much less expressing them. Pretending happiness isn't a good way to get your children to trust your faith.
AJ
I'd also say that the "liberal" denominations do a much better job of addressing mental health issues than the "conservative" ones do. It's pretty sad, but it makes sense, the premises from which each group is starting sort of inevitably leads to the separate conclusions.
posted
Does it make a difference that this is a church being discussed, and not a club of some other sort? If so, what?
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Spiritual lines of authority Tom, separating the Good that is God from the morass that humanity can sometimes make of God's institutions.
I'm not saying that I entirely buy into the premise and I *know* you don't. but I have considerable first hand experince of the workings of how it plays out on the humanity side.
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I think it might be good to have some counseling with your older daughter, whether that is one on one or with your counselor, about your feelings. It may turn out that she's only acting like she likes it to help you feel better. Or she may be genuinely bonded with the people she's with. If the latter, this approach will at least inform of your feelings.
P.S.
quote: Does it make a difference that this is a church being discussed, and not a club of some other sort? If so, what?
Tom, that's why I asked about whether she feels covenanted toward this congregation. It sounds like the attachments of other family members and the nature of the "club" being one that all the family wants to attend together is pretty important.
If the family all understands why, I think a solution where different folks to to different churches could possibly work. As long as the feelings are open enough for Belle to go back for special events.
Is church more like a club or is it an extension of family? This has a lot to do with Belle's original question.
[ January 10, 2005, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
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"Spiritual lines of authority Tom, separating the Good that is God from the morass that humanity can sometimes make of God's institutions."
Then it seems to me, if this is the case, that Belle's husband -- whom she accepts as her spiritual authority -- should be praying for direction on this issue. If her church is a godly one, won't God make that clear?
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Notice that was my first suggestion, Tom, I didn't really specifically include praying cause it was kind of implicit but yes.
However if the causes are *human* and have everything to do with human frailty rather than the faith in God, there is a problem, that the "spiritual" way won't help. Possibly because the people that have the problem aren't willing to humble themselves and honestly consider what God may be saying about their preconcieved notions.*
AJ *Note: This is theoretical. I personally haven't witnessed any major conflict where the humans in question have been able to get out of the way of themselves and actually resolve issues and come to unity. See the litany of churches changed above.
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I concur with BannaOJ that there is not enough understanding about emotional and mental issues, and that that ignorance can be destructive.
For the current issue, though, I can't support the idea of changing churches because of not serving in the opportunities you'd like, not when the rest of your family is happy there. We have the same issue in our own. Church offices may or may not fulfill all current needs to serve, and it isn't the responsibility of a church to make sure that everyone's current needs to serve are being met. For a number of reasons, not everyone can serve in the way they would like. We don't choose how we are needed.
Since you asked, I would say that disagreeing with the core doctrines or else knowledge of corruption is a reason to leave a church, but that's about the end of the list.
[ January 10, 2005, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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The husband being the head doesn't mean he should or wants to make decisions alone. Just as the analogy goes that is originally in the NT (IIRC) that the husband heads the wife just as Christ heads the church. Christ doesn't want the church to obey him just because he said so, or even out of love for him. That which follows the head has its free will but the head strives to bring it into alignment with "right". That's why Christianity is so inefficient.
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I wish I had something helpful to say, Belle. I'm really feeling for you...I know that this sort of stuff can strike right at the heart. My best friend is a bit disenchanted with our church for reasons similar to what you've shared. I love her so it hurts me that she's hurting over feeling left out and rejected.
I'd give you a big huge hug if I could.
(And AJ, you're super. I've loved your posts on this thread.)
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However in Belle's place her husband is willing to be her advocate. If anything it sounds to me he has been refraining out of deference to her. I think definitely that should be the first step. Hopefully if it is the mental health issues they will address them with him honestly. If he gets blown off too, then it really becomes obvious...
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"Since you asked, I would say that disagreeing with the core doctrines or else knowledge of corruption is a reason to leave a church, but that's about the end of the list."
Which is why I asked if there were a difference between a church and a club.
Because I wouldn't choose to belong to a club that clearly disrespected me and undervalued my time and contributions.
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I wouldn't, either. I think it's different - clubs we pick and participate in for ourselves, on a casual and interest basis. Churches are about something higher.
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Another note: It is interesting to me, that it often *is* the people with mental health issues (and I'm using that as a broadly generic term) that are the ones that end up doing some of the most valuable ministering to others, both secularly and religiously. However, ministering to sick people who don't think they are sick, (even if it might be abundantly clear to someone who has the insight of having been there) is generally fruitless. Jesus himself said he didn't come for the righteous but the sinners.
quote: Because I wouldn't choose to belong to a club that clearly disrespected me and undervalued my time and contributions.
I hear you, Tom.
But sometimes it is a matter of seing the whole picture. Why, I couldn't be on hatrack if I felt everyone had to respect me and value my time and contributions. But there are enough people I feel like I matter to that I'm willing to put up with some crap now and then.
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I'm not sure about that "hence." Do most Sunday School teachers really expect to get rewarded in the afterlife for choosing to teach without pay or appreciation? I was always under the impression that they did it because they considered that kind of charity to be visible evidence of their own faith.
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I don't think "expect" has quite the same connotation as "hope". The whole eternal reward thing is entirely contingent on one's heart being in the right place which is a constant self examination process. I think any preschool sunday school teacher would *hope* their heart was in the right place that week and that they were glorifying God with their actions.
quote:I was always under the impression that they did it because they considered that kind of charity to be visible evidence of their own faith.
That's not fair, Tom.
I teach Hebrew School and I do get paid, but I certainly don't do it for the (very little) money or to make a show of my faith and/or charity. I do it because I think it's vital for the next generation of Jewish children to know Hebrew. My spiritual reward is knowing that I am helping to sustain my religion.
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I actually thought about going back and editing in exactly that motivation, but figured that someone would have posted it by the time I finished. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I like teaching preschoolers at church. I frequently sub in the 2 year old's class.
I do it because it needs doing. That's how I got into children's ministry. They needed someone and I wasn't doing anything...was looking for someplace to fit in to in my new church in Denver, and they clearly needed a preschool mid-week service assistant. It was often a scary experience, but I learned to love it. There's nothing in the world better than having a child trust and love you. I don't always go with the best attitude, but I always *leave* with a better one. Service blesses just by itself.
But it's clear in scripture that there are rewards in heaven for faithful service. That's not why I do it -- as I said, it blesses just by itself -- but in a small way, that promise of reward makes death a little smaller, not so scary.
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I think the issues about opportunities to serve in the church need to be set aside until the doctrinal matter is settled. (For belle, not that the thread "shouldn't" continue to explore this area.)
On the subject of serving, I like to recall the scripture about "If he have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto Me."
[ January 10, 2005, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
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I know I'm jumping in late, but I'd like to input my own responses to Belle's initial questions.
"Should a church member be under the obligation to stay and work things out no matter what?"
No. Some problems with a congregation, spiritual leader, or doctrine, are too significant to overlook. In a temple a rabbi holds a fairly significant role, especially in a reform temple. If my rabbi did not value my membership in the congregation, and visibly demonstrated that, I would attempt to find a place where the leader welcomed me, and allowed me to participate fully in the temple and its works. Of course, judaism is a lot more "works" oriented then most sects of christianity, so not being able to participate in the works of a temple might be more significant then for a church. Doctrinally, if you believe the church is wrong on significant issues, then I would say you should most definetely leave. Significant issues, I would assert, are issues of salvation, the nature and role of god in life, and similar issues. In terms of congregation, if a person believes that he can only be in touch with god through loud, emotional, prayer, and belongs to a congregation that practices silent, solitary, prayer, the person does not belong in that congregation.
"What if one family member wants to leave but no one else does?"
I think this can be brutal. It depends on many issues. I live in massachusetts, where the primary church is the catholic church, and most people who were born here grew up catholics. There are also, especially recently because of teh scandal with the catholic church, a lot of lapsed catholics who are looking for new homes. I was raised, until my mother converted, in both judaism, and generic protestantism, so I have some personal experience.
I think every effort should be made to find a congregation the family is comfortable with, because religion, especially for you, Belle, more then many others, is a vital part of family life. However, its not always the case that family members can belong to the same congregation. The girl I took to my high school prom was raised catholic, by a catholic mother. But her father was methodist, and only attended mass for special events, such as her confirmation. The family was strong, despite this parental split. But, I think you, Belle, would feel this a devastating blow to your family. For that reason, I think you and your husband need to find a place, whether its this church or a new one, where you both belong.
" Is that family member being selfish by insisting everybody else change churches?"
Not necessarily. If you can meet your religious needs only a new church, and your husband could meet them either in your current or new church, then by all means find a new church. This, of course, depends upon seperating wants and needs. Do you NEED to be involved in the activities you can't be right now, or is it a want?
"Can family members go to different churches? I believe the answer to that is no"
As I said, the answer is yes, but for you likely no.
"Should you stay at a church if their stated doctrine is no longer what you believe?"
Depends on the doctrine. If the doctrine is that gay marriage is evil in the eyes of god, and you disagree, there's no reason to leave the church, unless you happen to be a gay person who wants to get married. This, obviously, is not the case in your situation. On the other hand, if doctrine is that god works through men, and you don't believe that, and thus believe the church should function differently then it does, this is an irreconcilable difference, in my opinion.
" Must you agree with all of the doctrinal statement to remain a member? Or is it only important for the leaders and church officers to adhere strictly to the doctrine, allowing a little more liberty in the beliefs of the congregation?"
I think you need to agree with the most important aspects of the doctrinal statements. The congregation usually should have a little more liberty of belief, then the leadership.
"Yet, does that mean if you ever feel called by God to assume a leadership role in that church, you would then have to turn it down because you can't agree with the doctrine?"
This, to me, is probably an irreconcileable differnce. Let me take this out a bit...
Lets assume I hear god call me to the cloth. Yet, I belong to a church that I am disqualified from being a clergy member, for some reason. God, obviously, has told me to BE a clergy member. But I can't within context of my church's doctrine. Either I need to work to change that doctrine, or find a church that will let me answer god's call.
I hope this helps in some way. I know I'm not a religious person, but that doesn't mean I don't have real answers to these questions.
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